US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery

[Self Loading Freight]

The brother of a friend of mine just had a very upsetting experience, which I thought I'd pass on in case others are at risk.

He's a Brit who lives in America with his children, and he's recently got dual citizenship. Although he applied for a US passport as soon as he could, his local office is on a go-slow and is four months behind on processing applications. He wanted to come to London for Christmas, and flew in on his UK passport with the rest of the family.

On trying to leave after Christmas, though, US Air refused to let him on the plane. Although he'd checked with both the US Passport office and the airline before leaving the US, and both had told him that his UK passport would be fine, the airline at Gatwick disagreed. Two and a half hours of discussion didn't move them on this point, and he had to return to London together with his very confused and miserable children to camp out on a friend's floor until he could get an emergency US passport from the London embassy.

That took four days. The embassy says that it gets a couple of cases like this a day (it didn't help that they could't find his original application on the computer because it had been misfiled under Ukraine instead of Uk - that also happens a lot) and asked him to complain to the US Passport office when he got back. The embassy thinks that bad advice is being dispensed by that organisation, but their pleas have been ignored. (From what I know of US bureaucracy, I find this very easy to believe.)

Apparently, one of the problems is that his UK passport referred to his green card which had of course been surrendered when he got citizenship.

US Air weren't much help either - they initially refused to rebook him and his children and said they'd have to go standby, but eventually they were talked out of this.

No fun.

R

[christep]

If he already had a Green Card what possible reason is there for taking US CItizenship? I can see only downside: being taxed on your global income wherever you live for the rest of your life, all these hassles with passports, being hated by half of the world... What's the point?

[MarkD]

christep
maybe he wants to be in the Olympics like that Canadian ice dancer?

[slim_slag]

Christep, there are two reasons I can think of.

1) You no longer have to maintain 'the intention to permanently reside in the US'. i.e you can go back to the UK for quite some time, with the option of going back to the US later.

2) You can get a green card for any close relatives a lot easier.

That's about it.

The tax situation with the IRS is a nightmare. They are incredibly aggressive to the point of being criminal, I'm thinking of canning my US citizenship for that reason. Even getting through immigration quicker as you don't get fingerprinted isn't happening now as they fingerprint green card holders. I now enter through the visitors line with the missis as it's quicker.

Always, always, always enter and leave the US on your US passport. This guy was badly advised by the US passport office, if he didn't have his US passport in his hand he shouldn't have left the States.

[bealine]

Personally, I've always found dual nationality perplexing!!!

The granting of a British Passport used to mean that you automatically were assumed to be loyal to the Crown first and foremost and would put Her Britannic Majesty before all others!

Now, doesn't the USA insist on swearing an oath of allegiance putting the United States at the forefront of your allegiance priorities before allowing you US citizenship???

So - in the unlikely event of a US / UK disagreement (another Boston Tea Party perhaps?) - which master do you serve???

As a former Queen's Soldier still under oath, my loyalties lie firmly with Her Majesty - whether she is right or wrong is not for me to judge - and that bond of trust (even though she hasn't a clue who I am, despite my having been reviewed by her on several occasions) would prevent me from ever applying for citizenship elsewhere!

Perhaps loyalty is not so common nowadays?

Now, as slim-slag says, if you have a US Passport - you must use it to enter/leave the USA. Perhaps it's for this very reason of allegiance???

[gas path]

Just out of interest, what happens to the fingerprints taken when you enter the USA are they kept forever on some massive database, or destroyed after a set time?
Because it begs another question the 'police state' that's our own HMG who likes to keep tabs on every citizen, could quite easily ask for the details and fingerprints of every UK citizen who enters the states, so that they can be stored for future use, and that's without the outcry that would ensue if they went public!
Personally it didn't bother me as I'm careful to use gloves for all the robberies:p :p :p ;)

[striparella]

Well...he's not travelling on the Visa Waiver programme as breaks most of the rules on there.... he's not entering on a visa because he doesn't have one.... he's not allowed to stay because he has neither a green card nor a passport.....yes i can see why he was denied.

He should have gotten a letter from some big wig in the Immigration department in the States about being between green card and passport to say he's allowed to enter and remain indefinately.

[Self Loading Freight]

There are many things he could have done, had he known - but then, how many of us would carry on investigating after phone calls to the Passport Office and the airline concerned had come up with the same apparently reasonable advice?

That's really the reason for this thread - you never know who's in the same situation. Except there are two a day, apparently.

As for why dual citizenship - for some people, the ability to be able to move as they wish between the US and the UK is a huge advantage in their work. However, the two people I know who've gone down that path have done so for other and more personal reasons: human life is frequently far more complicated than the bureaucrats (or those with more straightforward affairs) imagine!

R

[amanoffewwords]

I used to have a British passport, Belgian identity card and an Italian diplomatic lasciapassare (literally 'let through'); the first because of my I wanted to avoid doing military service in Italy and Belgium - the latter two because of my Dad's nationality and employment status in Italy.

For fun I used to hand all them over to the Italian border police whenever I was going home - just to see the perplexed reaction. That was before the days of terrorism and marigold gloves for custom officers :eek:

Just thought I'd mention it in passing...but it's an interesting story that told above - I guess that's how some people end up living in airports....

[RatherBeFlying]

Yep, US citizens returning from overseas are required to present a US passport, but coming from Canada or Mexico by air, a birth certificate and government photo id does the job for the remainder of this year.

After that there's another year before passports will be required at ground crossings.

At which time the cross-border tourism and shopping will come to a crashing halt in an election year unless an alternative to passports is in place by then.

Don't see many border states voting Republican if it hits the fan as currently designed:}

[Pax Vobiscum]

Yikes RatherBeFlying, I hadn't picked up on that piece of news! Less than half (some estimates say 25%) of US citizens have a passport. I remember being surprised when one of my colleagues (40s, senior IT manager at the US HQ of a global 500 company) told me he couldn't visit me in Europe because he didn't have a passport ...

[Paul Wilson]

Yep, there is a lot of rubbish talked about the fact that only 10?% of US citizens hold a passport, but when you consider that most Europeans who have a passport only use it to go to Spain/France/Italy once a year its hardly surprising. The equivalent for a Us Citizen is to go to Florida (nothing needed) Canada (driving license) or Mexico (same) it's not exactly a shock. How many Brits would have a passport if all you needed to go to France was your driving license?

[RevMan2]

The number is 20% of all adult Americans - so says the Economist, anyway

[OFBSLF]

Given the distances involved, it's no big surprise that most adults in the US do not have a passport. They could certainly get one, but don't need it for their normal vacations to Florida, Maine, Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Alaska, US Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Canada, Mexico, etc.

Paris to Berlin is 650 miles. That's about the same distance from my home in Boston to my inlaw's in Cleveland. A trip to visit my mother in FL would be 1300 miles. A visit to friends in San Jose, CA would be about 3100 miles.

[Pax Vobiscum]

I agree that US citizens have less need of a passport - they have mountains, oceans, deserts etc. etc. without need to go outside their borders. However, this can result in a lack of exposure to differing cultures - everywhere they've ever been there's the same hotels, convenience stores, TV progs (OK, I know the rest of the world is getting this way too!). There's infinitely more cultural diversity between Britain and France than there is between Texas and Maine.

[BOFH]

they have mountains, oceans, deserts

I almost started singing - 'What the world needs now' :ouch:

BOFH

[bealine]

However, this can result in a lack of exposure to differing cultures

Wasn't this the chief criticism of George W Bush - that up until he took up the office in the White House he hadn't been outside the USA???

[Farmer 1]

There's infinitely more cultural diversity between Britain and France than there is between Texas and Maine.
Have you been to Texas and Maine? If you did, did you stop off at any of the bits in between?

[Red Snake]

The misunderstanding your friend had is clear from the title of this thread - in the eyes of the US, there's no such thing as dual nationality. If you have an American passport, you renounce any other citizenship. And if you fly on an international flight as a US citizen, you are required to have a US passport (some NA countries excepted). A British (or any other) passport is not recognised by the US authorities if you are a US citizen.

The problem is that the opposite isn't true - the UK and some other Eu. countries have no problem with dual nationality so it's perfectly OK to have an Eu. and US passport. Just be aware that the US, and US airlines, don't see it that way.

[cavortingcheetah]

I think that your friend should actually have surrendered his British passport to the nearest British Embassy/Consulate, once he had his US citizenship and then renounced his UK citizenship. I have no idea if such a procedure actually exists but I am sure he should have gone through the motions. As far as I know, an adult cannot have dual US citizenship.
I am sure that he is aware that he must now always file a US income tax return, no matter where in the world he is living nor for how long in the future he may do so. Failure to comply with this might result in the US IRS coming against him for tax evasion. As long as he is a US citizen he will have a responsibility to the aforementioned organization. It does not, unlike the UK Revenue, make deals. Furthermore, even were he to allow his US passport to lapse in the future and continue to travel (illegally in the eyes of Uncle Sam?) on a British passport, the US/IRS will still consider him a US citizen for the purposes of taxation and the requirement to adhere to US tax law! Do be warned.

[Final 3 Greens]

OFBSLF

Paris to Berlin is 650 miles.

Please note that no passport is required between Paris and Berlin either, but I would assert that the cultural distance is thousands of times that of Boston to the West Coast.

And that's the point. Europeans are much more international in perspective, as we have far more cultures packed into our locale, one can go from the Slavic end of the Balkans to North Africa in a couple of hours, for instance.

[OFBSLF]

Please note that no passport is required between Paris and Berlin eitherThat's a relatively recent change.
I would assert that the cultural distance is thousands of times that of Boston to the West Coast.And that's a surprise in what way?

And by the way, the cultural distance from Cambridge, MA to Montague, MA is far greater than the cultural distance between Cambridge, MA and Berkeley, CA.one can go from the Slavic end of the Balkans to North Africa in a couple of hours, for instance.Thank you for making my point. Since folks here in the US can't do that, due to geography, we have a far lesser need for passports. Therefore, it is understandable that many people in the US don't have passports.

[Jordan D]

OFBSLF - its actually been a change for a number of years for Schengen countries to not need passports when visiting other such countries - will find the exact date for you.

Jordan

[PT6ER]

Many reasons encouraged me to take the citizenship plunge:
The other four members of my family are US citizens
I dont have to go through the relative hassel of renewing my Greencard
I can work on military contracts (I'm an engineer) requiring security clearance
I can vote in everything from our local schoolboard elections to trying to keep out GWB - sorry, one extra vote couldn't swing it....
I have no less feelings for the UK - love the place, just couldnt live there again.
Does it must mean I'm a little more "international" than my ex-countrymen who fly to spain for two weeks every year and demand HP sauce on my English sausages while swilling some wood alcohol disguised as lager?? Can't say really. Tourons from most countries should be avoided like the plague.
Am I disloyal to the UK? My Mum would say yes but I don't think so. I had to come here to earn a decent living as an engineer - something that was not available to me back in the mid eighties in the UK.
A fellow ex-pat friend of mine went home to visit and went back to his old local pub. One old boy there said he was nuts for leaving England blah blah blah etc. Turns out he had never been outside of Hartlepool and he was in his seventies!!
Ahh, I feel better now. This thread does get the juices going eh? (Bit of Canadian speak there)

[bealine]

However, PT6ER, in the event of conflict between the USA and the UK, (for example if the UK boycotts trade with the US over GM food), where would your loyalties lie - into which army would you accept your draft papers???

I still maintain you cannot serve two masters!!!

[Self Loading Freight]

I grew up in Devon and consider myself a Devon lad, yet have lived in London for the past umptygrump years and consider myself a Londoner too (precisely because it wouldn't work the other way around!).

If the West Country ever comes into conflict with London (and shall Trelawney die?), which side would I be on? Loyalties aren't immutable, nor are they exclusive, nor can they always be equitably divided.

I think anyone in a family will have found that out...

R

[christep]

The US Oath of Allegiance (which is required in order to obtain citizenship) does explicitly require exclusive loyalty.

(Although apparently the US does not force people to give up other citizenships now - I know quite a number of people who do hold US and another passport, which is unambiguously in conflict with the Oath of Allegiance.)

[PT6ER]

bealine, it is a moot point since a thickening waisteline and 45 years under my belt make the home guard my only chance to serve Queen and country or Republic!

I have heard of your particular question being asked at actual immigration interviews. All pretty daft really since I believe there is more chance of finding WMDs in Iraq than the two of our countries coming to blows.

When I did my citizenship interview I explicitly asked the orificer if he needed to take my British passport to which he replied "no".

I was under the impression that you can not give up your British citizenship but it can be taken away from you by HMG if they so desire. Does anyone know if that is true?

I do agree you cant serve two masters so I just do what "she who must be obeyed" says...all for a quiet life ;)

[Globaliser]

I was under the impression that you can not give up your British citizenship but it can be taken away from you by HMG if they so desire. Does anyone know if that is true?It isn't true. The relevant statutes provide a mechanism for a person to voluntarily renounce British nationality in order to acquire another nationality. Thereafter you can ask to reacquire it in certain circumstances, but I think you can only do this once in any one lifetime.

[slim_slag]

The US oath of allegiance requires you to "bear true faith and allegiance" to the "Constitution and laws of the United States of America". That isn't such a bad thing, and is IMO significantly better than pledging allegiance to some batty human, elected or otherwise. It depends on whether you see the individual as sovereign, or the State.

It also requires you to "absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty". The UK apparently don't recognise that as renouncing UK citizenship and I see it the same way. One pays taxes to both regimes, and consider that more relevant in this day and age than paying allegiance.

Once entered the UK at LHR via the visitor's line using a US passport because the european line was significantly longer. Guy just waved me through, but you could see him deflate when he realised he couldn't give me a hard time about why I was there.

Profound stuff for we SLF :)

[Selfloading]

I was born in Britain and so have a British passport but i have never sworn allegiance to Britain or it's monarchs I also hold Australian citizenship and in becoming a Aussie i swore allegiance to Australia and to the Queen of Australia so in the unlikely event of conflict what side should i be on?

You can renounce your British citizenship if you wish (download forms from home office website) costs 60 something pounds!!!

[bealine]

One pays taxes to both regimes, and consider that more relevant in this day and age than paying allegiance

......and this is why the Al Queda operatives had such an easy job obtaining US and UK documentation!!!

[EnglishmaninNY]

Hi All
Interesting post. I have both US and Uk passports and live permanently in the US - Long Island NY. The comments about the US not recognising the British citizenship are correct as far as I know, but my situation is that I gained both passports at birth; I was born in London but my father is a an American. I'm pretty sure that I never have to give up my UK citizenship; I hope not as I love living in the US, but you never know what the future holds!
Self Loading Freight; where did you live in Devon before London? My story is similar as I grep up in Dartmouth, Devon and then moved to Kensington, London...always glad to come accross a Devonshire Lad/Lass :ok:

[Self Loading Freight]

EnglishmaninNY - A bit further west, a place called Tamerton Foliot to the north of Plymouth, and now in Holloway (via Stanmore, Chiswick, East Ham, Kensal Rise, Highgate... may have missed one!). Could see Saltash out of my bedroom window - best to keep an eye on 'em, I think...

R

[slim_slag]

......and this is why the Al Queda operatives had such an easy job obtaining US and UK documentation!!!

If you are talking about the 9/11 hijackers, I didn't know they had UK documentation. Getting US citizenship by naturalisation requires giving fingerprints and having FBI background checks made. Did they have that? I bet you I've been checked out in far more detail than most airline employees, perhaps I should have a special queue at the airport :)

[bealine]

I bet you I've been checked out in far more detail than most airline employees

Not now!!! We now have Criminal Record Disclosure checks done on us and, recently, the DETR insisted on independent security carrying out body seaches on staff (not the airport security people). These searches were intrusive and invasive .....though I daresay some enjoyed them ;)......and have had to be withdrawn after so many complaints of sexual assault were made!!! (over 300 in one day!!!)

[slim_slag]

That would be a basic disclosure for people who have airside access. No fingerprints, all convictions that are spent don;t show up, cautions and arrests etc don't show up. Sounds like what I said is correct, that people who have been naturalised in the US have been checked out in more detail than most airline employees.

I am sure pilots and cabin crew who fly into the US are scrutinised in greater detail by the US, but they aren't most employees, and I bet they run those same checks on anybody with an FAA licence, not only those who fly into the States.

[stilton]

Why on earth would you renounce your citizenship? What possible reason would there be to take such an action?

I am of English birth and am now an American citizen living and working in the US. I still consider myself English however.

Years ago I became a citizen of Hong Kong as well (before the handover) as I spent most of my youth there. According to the UK you can be a citizen of as many countries as you want, if you are a British citizen you will always be...a British citizen.

I don't think many people in this world would willingly renounce their citizenship of birth, indeed if that had been a requirement I would not have become an American citizen.

[christep]

Just a point of order, being born in Britain is not a sufficient reason by itself to result in British Citizenship (unlike being born in the US or other places where it is sufficient).

[stilton]

Good point, actually I was born in Germany to English parents.

[Final 3 Greens]

OLBSLF

For your information, the Schengen treaty dates back 20 years and came into effect about 11 years ago.

Your lack of knowledge of this (and I am not attacking you for this) just typifies how little most Americans know Europe, because it so far away and not covered in your media.

[slim_slag]

Why on earth would you renounce your citizenship? What possible reason would there be to take such an action?

Money would be the big one. For instance, Murdoch found out a foreigner couldn't own 51% of a US news outlet and was sworn in as a US citizen the next day, Aussie citizenship discarded. I think the Aussie prime minister of the day said he could F-off (or something)

Power. Has Schwartzenegger revoked his Austrian citizenship? Might have made him more electable.

Taxes. Let's say you won the UK lottery jackpot where tax is not payable, only to have the Yanks claim 39%. Think you might just dispose of your US passport before you claimed the money?

And then there are people like John Paul Getty. He decided he liked English Cricket so much he took UK citizenship and turned in his US passport. The US embassy in London told him he was making a huge mistake but Getty said Not So. That is a good counter argument against those Americans who think the whole world wants to be Yanks, but then Americans who think that probably wouldn't listen anyway.

Final 3 Greens, You can say the same thing about most Europeans gross misunderstanding of what America is all about. Americans don't need to travel, the US has amazing natural beauty. Have you seen the visitor stats for Yosemite? I think 15% are German, 13% are British, and the rest of the world takes it to around 50%. I find that very interesting.

[stilton]

I suppose that that there is a sum of money that changes everything. In the Murdoch and Schwartzenegger world that is rather a separate universe than the one I inhabit.

Still for me personally 'giving up' my UK citizenship was never an option. When I had decided to live and work for the forseeable future in the US I thought it only logical to become a US citizen.

I would never had done so without contacting the British embassy and being assured by them that I would not lose my UK citizenship.

I doubt many 'ordinary' Americans would give up there citizenship if they became a citizen of another country!

[Globaliser]

Why on earth would you renounce your citizenship? What possible reason would there be to take such an action?Some people do have a real and pressing need to acquire the citizenship of another country which requires that you renounce all former citizenships before allowing you to do so. For example, you may have made your permanent home in this other country in circumstances in which it is extremely difficult to carry on living without becoming a citizen. It's for situations like that that UK legislation, at least, allows you to renounce your British citizenship.

Fortunately, it seems that the trend worldwide is away from requirements of exclusive single citizenship. As far as concerns people I know, Australia and South Africa two other countries that have recently abandoned this doctrine, much to my friends' relief.Years ago I became a citizen of Hong Kong as well (before the handover) as I spent most of my youth there. According to the UK you can be a citizen of as many countries as you want, if you are a British citizen you will always be...a British citizen.Were you both a British citizen and a British Dependent Territories citizen? AFAIK, the British Nationality Act 1981 was intended to make British citizenship and British Dependent Territories citizenship mutually exclusive, although it's so complex an area that I wouldn't be surprised if the attempt didn't work.

[Little Fokker]

Have a look at this about the Schengen. Anybody know why The Brits never joined....

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/en/willkommen/einreisebestimmungen/schengen_html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1997/schengen/13508.stm

[OFBSLF]

Your lack of knowledge of this (and I am not attacking you for this) just typifies how little most Americans know Europe, because it so far away and not covered in your media.
1) The hell you're not.

2) I'm well aware that you now don't need passports to go between most western European nations. From my perspective, 11 years ago is relatively recent. We can agree to disagree on the definition of recent and how that changes people's behavior with regards to getting passports.

3) Your cultural arrogance (Americans = ignorant, Europeans = worldly) typifies many postings here on pprune.

[stilton]

Yes, I became a HK citizen in the mid to late seventies, before I suppose any of the restrictions you mentioned took place.

[Globaliser]

Yes, I became a HK citizen in the mid to late seventies, before I suppose any of the restrictions you mentioned took place.I know it may all be pretty academic now, but I'm not sure that this can be right. Before 1 Jan 1983, there was only one relevant category of British "citizenship", irrespective of whether one's links were to the UK or to a colony/dependent territory. One was simply a "citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies", and one either was or wasn't one. So one couldn't have been a "UK citizen" as well as, separately, a "HK citizen".

However, immigration rights to the UK and to the colonies/dependent territories varied according to the nature of one's personal ties. So there were some CUKCs who were entitled to enter the UK and some who weren't, and one couldn't tell just from the type of citizen they were because all were CUKCs. The anomalous disconnection between citizenship and immigration rights was tidied up (some would say entrenched) by splitting CUKC status into three categories in 1983 - British citizen, British Dependent Territories citizen and British overseas citizen.

I mention this partly because it's an interest of mine, being in a similar position to you, and partly in case you think you might ever want to assert your rights to live and work in HK, in which case you might want to see what your true position is. I've got relatives who have become naturalised citizens elsewhere, but are trying to assert and document their HK residency status at the moment to try to preserve their rights to return to HK if they wish to do that at a future time. It would be a pity to lose those rights by inaction if you think there's any prospect that you might want them in the future.

Of course, this subject is also a good cure for insomnia, should any want to know more ... ;)

[stilton]

Interesting information, it was so long ago for me that I really don't remember the details.

Not sure how it would relate if I ever wanted to work in HK but I probably closed that door a long time ago.

[groundbum]

re only 20% of Americans hold a passport.

That's actually quite impressive if you think how many Americans are living in slums, rural poverty or inner city ghetto's. Think New Orleans and all the people left behind. I can bet none of those people have a passport. And in all American cities there are huge tracts of the city that are slum. Think LAX and the riots. How many of those folks had passports?

Before I get flamed and roasted, I lived in the States for 8 years and have a huge respect for the country and the people, h*ll I'm married to one. But they have perfected a fantastic labor pool system that keeps some 30-50% of people in poverty and eager for min wage work. Sometimes (as the owner of a mini hotel constantly searching for staff) I wish we had the same in England.

S

[Final 3 Greens]

OLBSLF

Only you can choose to feel attacked.

I have no sense of cultural arrogance, for example I know very little about Asia, since it is a long way away and not much covered in our press. For that matter, I know relatively little about the States too, although I have spend quite a lot of time working there.

My basic tenet is that Europeans experience cultural differences regularly, due to the amount of nations crammed into our continent and the amount of cross border trading.

Equally, one could argue that Americans are used to thinking on a bigger scale - certainly in business.

I work with many Americans and hold them in high regard as people who believe in "the art of the possible" and who will tirelessly try to work around problems to deliver a solution; in turn they lean on my experience of pan European culture.

But if you wish to feel attacked, then carry on. If you wish to believe that there is a cultural gradient, that's up to you - I see discrete cultures which are not measurable on a conitnuous scale.

[cavortingcheetah]

:=
Small informative encapsulation:

Schengen is a small town in Luxembourg. There, in 1985, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Luxembourg and Germany signed an agreement to end controls on their internal frontiers. The agreement came into effect ten years later in 1995 when the five original members were joined by Spain and Portugal.
The agreememnt was not a formal European Union agreement.
It was at an EU summit in Amsterdam in 1997 that it was decided to bring Schengen under the EU umbrella.
Before this date and subsequent to it, several other countries joined Schengen. The UK and Eire remain outside the agreement primarily because of terrorism fears.

Having said all that; there is a certain characteristic which separates Europeans from United Staters these days.
The European is gradually being trained to think of himself as one who is graciously permitted in some instances to preserve his individual national identity without the substitution of a cohesive and satisfactory international one. This deprivation will increase in the years to come as financial, cultural and other boundaries become more clouded and mixed within Europe with the passage of time. Nationalism in Europe has been socialised to the point where it is now unfashionable to be seen to evince any characteristic of jingoist pride at all. In fact, given the powers that the Chekist police now have in England, patriotism is becoming downright dangerous. (I use Chekist here to remind readers that Lenin's secret police were known as such. It would hardly be apposite to compare the police of a socialist country such as England with the Gestapo of fascist Germany.)
In the United States, in contrast, national identity is encouraged to the point where, notwithstanding the huge demographic changes that take place from state to state as a consquence of a highly mobile work force, devotion to an individual state is more or less unknown in all but the most deprived cultural backwaters.
I surmise that the United States boasts a stronger, more durable and cohesive society than the masterpiece of fragmented borders and tumultuous ethnic confusion which so typifies the idiotic failure that is Europe today.:hmm:

[Backtrack]

This is from the US Embassy website in London (www.usembassy.org.uk):
Dual Nationality
In the 1980's, the Supreme Court ruled that U.S. citizenship is a constitutional right that cannot be taken away from a citizen who does not intend to relinquish it. Therefore, such actions as naturalization in a foreign country, travel on a foreign passport, employment with a foreign government, and voting in a foreign election do not automatically jeopardize American citizenship. However, please note that all U.S. citizens, even dual nationals, must enter and depart the United States on U.S. passports.

[slim_slag]

Just discovered that if you win the UK lottery, then revoke your US citizenship to avoid US tax, then claim the money it will not matter. The Yanks claim the right to tax you for 10 years after revoking citizenship. They are a nasty lot, that IRS. So I'd have to give the ticket to the missus, not sure what is worse :)

[Globaliser]

So I'd have to give the ticket to the missus, not sure what is worse :)Comes to the same thing, anyway, doesn't it? I'm always being told "What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." :D