FAA IR Conversion to JAA Multi IR in UK

[Turkish777]

Ive tried the search as I know this subject has been hammered but since the format has changed on pprune I cant seem to get any of the old threads up...

Anyway any suggestions boys and girls, just some random names will be adequate, no need for an essay, (unless you want to of course).



Thanks

[no sponsor]

I think the course minimum is 20hrs or so, some of which can be done in the FNPTII. Someone did it when I was doing my full JAA IR course in the UK.

Have to sit the IR flight test, and pass a 170A.

The chap who did it had no idea about NDBs, and didn't know how to fly a hold with drift, so it took him a bit more than the 20hrs.

I guess you need the writtens as well.

School I'm familiar with was PAT in Bournemouth.

[Charlie Zulu]

The requirements from an ICAO ME-IR to a JAA ME-IR is as printed in Lasors Section E, Page 3, "Conversion Requirements".

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_06_WEB.pdf

1) The theoretical requirements (that is JAA IR(A) or JAA ATPL(A) exams passed), blah blah blah...

2) Complete a minimum of 15 hours instrument time under instruction (including 170A flight test) of which 5 hours may be in an FNPT1 or 10 hours in a FNPT2 or Flight Simulator.

5) Additional IR training considered necessary by the Head of Training of an approved FTO.

6) Pass the JAA IR(A) Skills Test.

As for schools, I'd give Bristol Flying Centre a call. I haven't attended the school yet but I will be once I have finished the ATPL exams. I have many friends passing through their doors with first time passes. However they haven't been converting their ICAO IR(A)'s so were following the fulltime course and am unsure as to how relevant this would be in regards to our situation (I'm in the same situation as you it seems).

[Turkish777]

Sorry guys, my grammer was a bit poor, I meant some names of some good Flight Schools in UK to do my conversion at....:O

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Forget what the JAA minimums are, the IR conversion will cost more than you can imagine. The US IR places emphasis on partial panel approaches, VOR's and ILS's. With JAA the emphasis is on flying NDB holds and approaches to a very tight standard. There is also a lot of route flying for JAA and that means long flights at £300+ per hour. The JAA IR is no better than the FAA IR, it's just different.

I would say a realistic absolute minimum is 15hrs sim and 10 in the aircraft. Most likely scenario is 20 sim and 20 in the aircraft. That is probably double what you expect. Don't fail the test either. That means more training, another £650 for the examiner and 2hrs more of aircraft rental. I did the conversion with quite a few hours under my belt yet still found it very awkward. All that I can say is brace yourself, things are going to get expensive, very expensive!

[Turkish777]

Oh right...Any schools out there got January sales going on...:eek:

Ok thanks friends...where did you go for your conversion Fair_Weather_Flyer

[JS3]

Hi everyone,

I am also doing the JAA conversion at the moment. I will finish my exams hopefully around July of this year.

Can anyone tell me if there is a major price difference in flight training across Europe. Since I am doing conversion I am not looking at integrated course costs, just hourly rental rates of aircraft.

Any help would be appreciated!

[Turkish777]

I phoned Stapleford today, they have a good reputation it seems and are fairly priced, the new Diamond multi is £295 and sim is £125 and that includes the instructor.....:ok:

[ramshorn]

Hi
Am starting my FAA IR conversion at Bristol flying centre on Feb 6th.
Have been up there to see them and the set up is really good.
The cost of the 15 hour conversion course is around the £3300 mark, which includes groundschool 5 hours in Seneca and 10 hours in FNPT 2.
I did my FAA IR about 4 years ago so i am pretty rusty so have allowed for at least another 10 hours in the seneca at £350 a pop, then aircraft for test at another £500 minimum, then the dreaded £637 CAA fee, which actually brings the cost to around £8000(if i get 1st time pass?).All pretty frightening really!
Whoever said it was cheaper to go down the ICAO licence conversion route??:{ ;)

[apruneuk]

Turkish

I had a crack at converting my FAA IR last winter with a UK school who shall remain nameless. I was made to feel like a second class citizen because I wasn't "paying my dues" and doing the full course. I received little to no help from the instructor who just sat like a sack of spuds making sarky comments if I made a mistake and took 8 weeks to complete the 15 hours due to a combination of poor weather, the instructor taking a holiday, tech. aircraft and having to wait for exam slots having completed the 170A. A major problem I found was that the school won't book the test until after you pass the 170A which means that at a time of year when the weather is poor you could wait for several weeks before a slot becomes available. In my case I had to wait 2 weeks only to have the test cancelled then another 2 weeks and another cancelled test then a then a booking 2 weeks later. Needless to say I was not up to speed on the day and failed.

I am going to Spain in Feb this year to do the whole 50 hour course in 3 weeks for the same price as the 15 hour conversion is here (I am now out of instrument currency and don't want a repeat of last year's fiasco). The IR is an add-on to the CPL so can be done in any JAA state, something that I wasn't aware of at the time. To pass the IR you really do need to be at the top of your game and unless you get a good run at it you will find it extremely hard. I found the actual format of the exam very similar to the one I took in the States. The main difference is the JAR penchant for NDB work as they are still widely used for holding in Europe.

Finally, I would strongly advise that if you are going to do your conversion in the UK that you only go to a school that is willing to give you the details of a few students who have completed the same course with them, do it in the Summer and don't go to a school with only one IR instructor and one twin! A friend of mine went to Airways at Exeter and had nothing but praise for them.

Sorry, I know you didn't want an essay but the muse took me.

[Telstar]

I would advise anyone with a CAA issued JAA licence who has a FAA IR to give the UK a wide berth. I went to Spain and did a 15 hour conversion for 5K Euro/GBP3500 which included Test Fees, aircraft hire for the test.

You don't get the sneering attitude towards your FAA licences and the test is not the overkill it is in the UK and its a lot cheaper. The weather plays ball even in the Winter and I had mine done in 8 Days.

Note that this only applies to a CAA blue book. No other authority allows an hours reduction as far as I am aware of.

[Telstar]

P.S

then the dreaded £637 CAA fee

Its 150 Euro/~100 GBP for the spanish CAA fee. Reason enough to do it in Spain!

[Flying Aggie]

I just got my Conversion done, it took me one year, that's full time ground school, atpl written exams, cpl conversion, ir conversion and MCC.
CPL Conversion that was 15 hrs in a PA28 then IR Conversion which was 10 hrs sim, and 20 hrs flt time. I did the whole thing at CABAIR and can't complain at all. the whole thing cost me about 15000 pounds including the MCC with it. I passed all the exam first time. Even though I have not done an NDB since I got my FAA IR. NDB Holds took some time to learn but once I got them things went well. If you are planning to fly in the UK, I thing it is better if you do your training in the UK for the CPL and IR. It is a whole different ball game with the RT over this side of the pond. I Hope this helps

Flying Aggie

[menikos]

Hello,

it was told to me that doing your IR outside UK is not a good thing if you plan to work in UK, is it true ?

Or the companies are not taking consideration of that because in Spain the IR conversion is cheaper than in UK.

Cheers.

[JS3]

Can someone please explain to me the difference between the IR conversion (if there is any) in Spain and the UK.

As far as I know, the UK IR conversion from an FAA IR requires a minimum of 15 hours of which 5 can be in the FNPT I or 10 in the FNPT II. How is the Spanish conversion done?

Likewise, is there any difference in the conversion of the Commercial license?

[bfato]

JS3, there's no difference in terms of minimum required training. Hourly costs are less and the test fee is an awful lot less, that's all.

I have yet to decide where to do my conversion so can offer no opinion on quality of training or test standards, either here or in Spain, but I read apruneuk's post with interest.

[bfato]

i should add that I see you're based in Europe, JS3. IIRC, the UK CAA is unique amongst the JAA states in allowing the 15 hour conversion course. If you have a licence from another state I believe you would have to do a full IR, no reduction would be allowed based on your non-JAA ICAO IR.

It is a happy consequence of the JAA rules for us Brits that we can do the conversion in another (approved) member state when adding the IR to our licences.

[menikos]

So guys,

would a british company be aware of your IFR done in UK or they just want you to have your CPL/IR/ME JAA not matter if you did your IR in Spain in our case and in my case it's a conversion from FAA.

Many thanks.

[no sponsor]

I've seen no application form asking if your IR was done in a specific country. However, someone could obviously see where you took the test, and which examiner did it, by inspecting the log book.

I was familiar with a student who trained at my UK school for a CPL to add to their Spanish won IR. The general consensus among the instructor and the 170A instructor for the CPL was that their IR skills were appalling to the extent that they were touch and go for even the instrument section of the UK CPL. As with the UK, select your school very carefully.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I had of course considered doing the IR conversion in Spain and I could have done the CPL at the school I worked for in the US. This would have been in the airspace I'm used to and the exact aircraft I was flying on a daily basis. The examiner had a repuatation for never failing anyone so a pass was pretty much in the bag. So why do it in the UK knowing full well the CAA's reputation and the insane costs?

Well, I'd never done any flying in the UK and if I did the conversion elsewhere I would be applying for UK jobs with no time in UK airspace. If you were a turboprop or air taxi operator would you want to take me on? At the end of the day, it 's not about obtaining a cheap CPL/IR, getting a job is the aim of the game! Getting a job is going to be tricky enough as it is without having to persuade operators that my Spanish and US converted ratings were issued on a fair basis.

If you are converting and are not very instrument current get some Frasca time. 10 hours in the Frasca is the best way to get that scan back up to speed and get you comfortable with how they like to do things over here. Do only 5-10 hours in the FNPT2 and increase the time you spend in the actual aircraft. I can promise you though that the cost will still make you weep.

[jessie05]

Hi Ladies and gentlemen

Just the topic for which all of you will be able to assist me with!
I am not yet in a position to convert anything yet but will be soon hopefully.

I am in the process of deciding whether to do all my training in UK or most of it in USA with conversion later as you have all done.

May i just ask that with hindsight what would you do now if you were just beginning the flight training?

There appears to be good US schools that provide CPL/IR/ME then conversion courses in UK all for around £25000.

But if i have to undertake significantly more training when back in england then perhaps the UK only option may be better? I really would value your opinions on this factor.

I already have all the atpls and a low hour ppl so at least i wont have to concern myself with too much extra study.

look forward to hearing your views.

Jess

[no sponsor]

Assuming you meant to say UK £25,000 (and not US$) then this is about the price I paid for my CPL/IR and ME here in the UK. (Not including ATPL exams, nor any hr building and course was done in minimum hrs).

So, if there is some reason why you want your FAA licence, then there seems little point doing it in the US then converting.

[menikos]

Hi,

Anyone can tell us about british companies and spanish IR if it's a problem or not ?

I can understand that some instructors find the spanish IR appalling but on the basis of what ? facts please.

PS : It reminds me french guys saying "Oh the american IR is a joke us the french it's a real IR not like the US, as far as I know the country of aviation is the US not France : )

Thanks guys.

[no sponsor]

RTFP! Not a statement about the Spanish IR being appalling in this instance, but the standard of a student who turned up for the CPL to add to an IR. It therefore hints at a previous school training problem, rather than a blanket statement regarding Spanish IRs. As this is the only student I've come across, it is impossible to comment on the quality of IRs from Spain. As I said, there's been few applications requesting which country you did the IR in.

[menikos]

My mystake no_sponsor, my english is very poor so I didn't make myself clear it was not about your comment it reminded a french comment : ) about the US IR

As you said we cannot say nothing about the Spanish IR after all it's a JAA state, so thanks for your answers it seems that's not automatic to ask about where you did your IR.

If it was not a problem of money I'll do it in UK but it's very difficult to save all that money knowing that in Spain it's cheaper and faster (weather) and almost half price.

Well I wish you all a cockpit very soon : )

Cheers.

[no sponsor]

Although the requirement is 50hrs for the IR if you have a CPL, under no circumstances budget for 50hrs. Most tend to take a little longer, some 1-2 hrs more, others more than 10. Only when you get the pass in the 170A can you do a test. There are nightmare stories about IRs that took 75+ hrs, and I know another who just started the 50hrs from scratch are receiving dubious training and failing his IR exam (done in the UK).

Never select a school on cost alone! It will be your undoing. If you're Chuck Yeager, it will still take 50hrs...

Look at student/instructor ratio. Mine was at about 2:1, so I always got a good half a day of briefing, de-briefing, etc. The rest of my time was spent in the Frasca, reading and planning for the next day. I heard these awful stories of 5:1 instructor ratios where the briefings and de-brief were done in the aircraft during taxi!!

Look at pass rates, and speak to exsiting students. I did my IR in the UK at PAT in Bournemouth.

[Telstar]

Ok, I have had a lot of P.Ms about the process so here is some info.
ICAO IR holders can get an hours reduction from the UK CAA only. The rating itself can be done at any JAA FTO anywhere in Europe; however you must be firstly a CAA license holder. In simple language if you don't have a CAA book you would have to do a full 55 hour modular course.
The school I dealt with in Spain knew all about 170a tests and all the paperwork. Once this is complete with the corresponding paperwork from the examiner you send it all off to the UK CAA at Gatwick, they put the rating on your licensee with a CAA stamp. It does not say where, or what country it was completed, they are the issuing authority. The Civil Aviation authority of the country you do the rating in is only supervising the training.
As for the schools. I had an FAA IR and, for a student, a solid block of IFR flying in the US. Despite the contempt that the training establishments on this side of the pond hold them in, they were bloody hard tests especially the Oral. I didn't feel that I wanted to jump through the same hoops again in the UK, especially in terms of expense. I spent ~3,500GBP converting in Spain, I was told I would expect to pay up to 10,000 GBP in the UK as I would not pass in the minimum 15hrs.
As to the standard? Well I can only talk of the small school I dealt with. I certainly would not have wanted to do the initial rating there. The standards were poor; students were rarely put under the hood or similar devices. Navaids were in short supply often a remote navaid was used with a modified approach plate to suit. Practice Approaches at major airfields were difficult to get as the military controllers were on an unofficial go slow.
Like I said earlier, for me it was the path of least resistance, I got the rating converted from my FAA in 8 days, at a considerably reduced price.
As for being asked where your rating was completed, I can't comment. I am now flying with a major European airline and at interview they were not interested, just as long as I had a license number for them to fill in on their form.
Also interesting to note that I did my CPL in the US and my IR in Spain, yet I have a CAA license and have never flown in UK airspace.....

<<<Editde ofr crap speeling and gremmar :} ;) >>>

[SHARPPOINT]

Telstar, could you check you private messages I'm after the contact details of the Flight school you went to in Spain!!

:ok:

[Turkish777]

Thank you apruneuk for your feed back and everyone else. I started at Stapleford on Monday as its local to me, which obviously means no accommodation costs..and no fast food expenses.

So far so good, friendly bunch and competitive prices too. The Diamond DA-42 is a b****** to fly though, makes the IR even harder! but thought this is the way forward, no point training on old aircraft when you can have the glass cockpit..Its nice to be able to say good bye to mixtures, manifold pressure, varible props etc so it has its bonuses...anyway will keep you all updated..have a look at the cockpit below:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=913998&WxsIERv=Qvnzbaq%20QN-42-180%20Gjva%20Fgne&Wm=1&WdsYXMg=Hagvgyrq&QtODMg=Tenm%20-%20Gunyreubs%20%28TEM%20%2F%20YBJT%20%2F%20YBKT%29&ERDLTkt=Nhfgevn&ktODMp=Nhthfg%2025%2C%202005&BP=0&WNEb25u=Jreare%20Ubeingu&xsIERvdWdsY=BR-SWW&MgTUQtODMgKE=Bar%20bs%20gur%20orfg%20rdhvccrq%20cebcf%20V%27 ir%20rire%20frra...%20Pbzvat%20jvgu%20na%20nqqvgvbany%20fhcr eo%20yrngure%20vagrevbe%21&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=5470&NEb25uZWxs=2005-09-04%2010%3A15%3A22&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=42.037&static=yes&width=1024&height=754&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Qvnzbaq%20QN-42%20Gjva%20Fgne%27%29%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=8&prev_id=919635&next_id=913714&size=L

[sexygirl]

Still the spotter then Den?

[Air Polygamy]

Now I'm scared!

I am close to enrolling into a JAA converison course with CABAIR in Bournemouth. It's gonna cost me money but I choose the UK rather than France or Spain because the employment market looks better in the UK than anywhere else in Europe. And with the euro rate, well it's gonna cost even more.
But according to what I'm reading the UK isn't such a good idea. Any wise pilot around to advise me?

[Married2APilot]

Thats not what I read! It seems to me that more people are advising to do your coursework in the UK, especially if, when you're done, you want a job in the UK. A few people seem to hold Spain in very high regards but I didnt really read where people are saying that the UK is a bad idea. Perhaps I'm wrong though...did anyone say that? There were a couple of schools in the UK that were spoken highly of. One person did all of their conversion through the MCC at CABAIR and had no complaints. A couple of people for PAT, one or two for Stapleford (which really looks good, I'd look further into that one myself).
Overall it seems like the majority is saying stay in the UK if you want a job in the UK and to be familiar with UK airspace. Do your homework and dont just pick a school for its name or for its price. Visit the school first, hear from people who attended, check the instructor to student ratio, and make an informed decision.:cool: