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Ecam McEicas
29th Dec 2005, 15:24
Has anyone any info about what caused an Easyjet B737 to declare a PAN with smoke in cabin (flt crew & pax on masks ??). Crew later cancelled PAN and returned to NCL after burning off fuel for uneventfull landing in heavy snow at 20.00 hrs 28/12/05.

Old Coder
29th Dec 2005, 15:28
Story here:

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/4566226.stm>


OC

Ecam McEicas
29th Dec 2005, 15:36
Thanks for prompt reply Old Coder, I guess the part about the mask's was incorrect.

dwshimoda
29th Dec 2005, 15:39
"The captain decided he would return to Newcastle to get it looked at and unfortunately that meant he had to circle for quite a while until he had burned off enough fuel to allow him to land safely.

Does the 737 not have a fuel dump facility then, & if not, what is MTOM and MLM?

DW

Sleeve Wing
29th Dec 2005, 17:05
Quote:
____________________________________

> Does the 737 not have a fuel dump facility then, & if not, what is MTOM and MLM?<

____________________________________

1. No

2. Depends on model, - IIRC, up to about 4 metric tonnes difference between MTOM and MLM.

Poss. cause ? Sounds like XS de-icing fluid into Aircon. ?

fmgc
29th Dec 2005, 19:44
Can't the 737 land overweight in case of a return?

Localiser Green
29th Dec 2005, 20:23
Can't the 737 land overweight in case of a return?
Yep, so can a 747-400. Right up to MTOW, subject to runway length and in an emergency.

If it's not so serious, burn it off or dump.

Some aircraft will still be overweight after dumping, like the 767-300 which can only dump from the centre fuel tank. The wing tanks will still be full and with a decent payload it will still be above MLW after dumping.

Other types with no fuel dump facility that spring to mind are the A320 family, 757, 767-200 (all?), 767-300 (some), A330 (some).

Topjet
29th Dec 2005, 21:11
From what i heard it was just smoke in the cockpit which cleared up pretty quickly after declaring pan but with flight deck still on masks.

A/c circled for a while to burn a bit of fuel then returned to Newcastle with an uneventful landing.

BTB`s Back
31st Dec 2005, 05:41
I was said skipper on said jet.

very heavy snow contamination on whole a/c needing extensive de-icing. Full power bleeds off takeoff using apu air for initial climb. Due to high angle of climb and very large amount of residual fluid on fuselage, the contaminent entered the APU intake in unusually large amounts. This manifested itself as thick acrid black smoke in the cockpit at about 500` agl requiring cockpit masks to be donned. Similar smoke in the cabin confirmed that this must be an ir conditioning issue so re-configuiring the bleed airs instantly solved the problem. Bit dodgy for a bit though when it all happens at max t\o wt at 500`!

Landing afterwards became interesting due to lack of available places to go.

Lots of pax complained of throat/eye problems in the air but were ok when offered medical attention.

Wee Weasley Welshman
31st Dec 2005, 09:59
Busy day at the office that. Never really given too much thought to having to mask up during an initial climbout phase - its so nearly always practiced in the cruise or other quiet time. Well done.

WWW

Ecam McEicas
31st Dec 2005, 10:05
Excellent result, well done to all (Air & Grd)

LoGo
31st Dec 2005, 11:13
BTB's BACK

Shame you described it in such detail . . . you'll be giving TRE's ideas for the next OPC!

Seriously though, well done mate.

eJ Capt

Wing Commander Fowler
31st Dec 2005, 11:15
Yes well done BTB's back - and also his front......:E Never really considered the possibility of de-icing fluid rolling back into the APU intake....... Seems perhaps Mr Boeing didn't either? Bit of a worry alright! I shall consider an unpressurised takeoff in future should I be in similar circumstances and can declare that's only with the 20-20 hindsight you guys have gifted me! Again well done and thanx! :ok:

Shaka Zulu
31st Dec 2005, 11:20
WCF: its quite common on the 73's with high body angles to have de icing fluid ingested by the APU.
I tend to brief it to the cabin crew before flight.
However the quantity that got ingested in the NCL event is new to me! Must have had a thorough de-ice ;)

JW411
31st Dec 2005, 12:36
I know nothing about 737s but after two very similar events after deicing and occuring immediately after take-off we nowadays absolutely never use APU air after deicing.

The answer is to take off unpressurised and then select engine air and packs on shortly after take off.

Wing Commander Fowler
31st Dec 2005, 13:06
The answer is to take off unpressurised and then select engine air and packs on shortly after take off.

....... now where did I hear that before? With hindsight! :zzz:

Wizofoz
31st Dec 2005, 13:25
Is food for thought though. Perhaps an NTC and note in next years Winter Brief? I certainly wouldn't have given an APU air bleeds off TO a second thought after de-iceing, but I will now!

Well handled, and a good opertunity for some lernin'

Command Material
1st Jan 2006, 11:05
Well Dones Guys. That is a cracker for a command selection loft.I miss my 737 so so much. Old FiFi has arrived here at Bristol and it is an easier day out for sure but Mr Boeing still makes great airplanes. Its a little different on the bus we take off with the packs and apu off as standard! Then through acceleration we reconfigure the packs, so no messy fluid mishaps me thinks. Very well handled.
Happy New Year Wing Commander Fowler me old friend
Regards
Ted

Wing Commander Fowler
1st Jan 2006, 16:03
Hi Ted me ole mucker! Knew it was you when I read the "miss me 737" don't know why..... How's Ro' an the rugrat? :)

Vansin
1st Jan 2006, 16:06
Well done, you did a fantastic job.

Is unpressurised take-off a well known procedure on the 737?
Its the first time that I hear of it, but it makes real sense.

I would appreciate any feedback.

Wing Commander Fowler
1st Jan 2006, 17:52
It's well known by Boeing - they cover it with a procedure in the manuals! Not overly common in Europe tho' as it's only gonna be utilised in very hot and short or high airports and then only when the APU is U/S IMHO....... :oh:

Oops...... memory not gettin any better these days - and will be practised by guys exposed to similar circumstances as these and who have read this thread ........ and of course "know it alls" hehe!

Epsilon minus
1st Jan 2006, 18:09
WCF said:
I shall consider an unpressurised takeoff in future
Be careful, someone else tried that last summer with disasterous results.

Wing Commander Fowler
1st Jan 2006, 19:30
Epsilon - be careful of course! That's what we are paid for...... We are also paid to make correct and considered decisions and back them up with careful actions. Thanx for yr concern though.

By the way - there is a huge gulf between planning something and an accidental occurence - we would all do well to remember that!

JW411
1st Jan 2006, 19:33
Epsilon minus:

Yes and we had two crews with oxygen masks on calling Mayday just after take-off with serious fumes and smoke in the cockpit which resulted in very rapid returns to earth!

There has been no further problem since we abandoned using APU air after deicing.

fmgc
1st Jan 2006, 21:22
Loc Green,

Yep, so can a 747-400. Right up to MTOW, subject to runway length and in an emergency

I do realise that but in the A320/1 we can land upto max landing weight for any return or diversion whether the reason is minor or major (LDA permitting) I would have thought a 737 would be the same but have never flown one, hence my question.

Wing Commander Fowler
1st Jan 2006, 21:29
fmgc - I'm assuming there's a wee typo here...... All aircraft should be able to land at max landing weight...... ;)

Wing Commander Fowler
1st Jan 2006, 21:35
Oh NO - you've broken it!!!

fmgc
1st Jan 2006, 21:36
Oh NO - you've broken it!!!

Tell me about, I was getting into a right mess!!

Basic T
1st Jan 2006, 22:34
On the Airbus in EZY, all take-offs are unpressurized as it preserves engine life. Due to the aircon packs being switched off, the EGT on each engine reduces and therefore reduces maintanance costs. An added effect is that ofcourse with packs-off you have an increase in performance.

:D

cactusbusdrvr
2nd Jan 2006, 05:42
We used to do a number of bleeds off t/os in the 737 200, not as much in the -300. Did more in the A1 powered A320. LAS in summer going to JFK in 40 degree heat (C) required bleeds off. And the APUs are crap on the 320 so half the time it was unpressurized. No worries in the 757. We can do reduced thrust off the 19s (short runways) in LAS with a full load to the east coast up to 42C.

BTB - what type of deice fluid did you use? The type IV fluid that is used here in the States is a lot thicker than the old type I glycol/water mix and is designed to shear under airspeed load. The sh## gets into everything. The F/O called me down to the ramp the other day in San Diego to look at what appeared to be hydraulic fluid coming off the flap canoes and aileron leading edges. Turned out to be deice fluid from days ago that mixed in with humid air on the descent and leaked out some holes.

parkfell
4th Jan 2006, 10:02
Is snow ever brushed off 737 size of aircraft before applying de-icing fluid?