Logging of Flight Time

[Everheavy]

I'm working for a company where the logging of flight time begins when you start the taxi, and end when you chock in. However in the past, I've worked for other companies where the logging of flight time begins when the doors are closed, and parking brake is released for the beginning of pushback. Somehow, I'm feeling that I'm getting screwed from my current company as in a day, I'd be losing 20 to 30 mins. of flight time since the time between the start of push back and the start of taxi is not computed. That means that in a year, I'd have to fly 100 hours extra in order to reach the maximum yearly flight time limitation. So, which one is considered correct? Personally I'd select the second one as when the doors are closed, I am fully responsible for everything that goes on in the aircraft. What are your thoughts on this? Where can I find a reference regarding this matter?

[I-2021]

Hi !

Mmmmmmm well flight time starts when aircraft moves on it's own power, but pushback is taken into consideration I think. What do you fill in your techlog as block off ? What does your ramp agent write on the papers ? All the 3 timings should match anyway... You cannot have your block off for the pilot's logbook, the block off for the techlog and the block off for the ramp. In my carrier starting pushback means off block.

[Statorblade]

Most regulatory bodies would probably say it is from the time the aircraft begins to move under it's own power until the aircraft is stopped at the gate and the engines shut down.

This issue often arises because the ACARS OOOI times are generally linked to different parameters and (typically) relate to last door closed time for the commencement of the flight ("OUT" time) and park brake set for arrival ("IN" time).

Many companies electronically now use ACARS times as valid flight crew records. Seems eminently practical.

[Centaurus]

On the subject of logging of flight time. While flight time is required legally to be logged, does anyone know if you legally have to log instrument flight time? Why I ask this, is that personally I only log instrument flight time if IMC and I am actually hand flying the aircraft. The CAO says you can log autopilot time if in IMC. I know of pilots who have logged thousands of hours of autopilot IMC time which, although legal, does seem a little off-side.

There are others, who, having logged enough IMC instrument flight time to keep the Feds happy (on autopilot of course) , no longer can be bothered to log I/F time. In fact, "Stick me down for .5 I/F time" is a not uncommon phrase on the flight deck when the paperwork is being completed at the end of a flight and the flight was in CAVOK at 35,000 ft

Assuming they are entitled to log i/f time under the conditions required, is it illegal NOT to log it? Especially as it cannot be proven?

It used to be the rule that instrument flight time could only be logged if you were manually flying in IMC. That became a reasonably accurate yardstick of instrument flying experience provided it was logged honestly.

Then ICAO approved the monitoring of the autopilot in IMC as loggable instrument flight time, with Australia quickly following suit.

Does anyone know why ICAO brought in the change? It sure negated the whole point of logging of instrument flight time as a measure of IMC experience. Logging of autopilot time in IMC while eating your dinner and chatting up the hostie means SFA in terms of I/F experience now, don't you think?

[I-2021]

Hi Centaurus,

I have never heard about that kind of difference concerning flight time logging. If you are a GAT you are flying either VFR or IFR... the fact that it is CAVOK or VV001 will not make you change the rules of your flight with an airliner. I know that in the States there is flight time logging for actual IMC conditions or under "the hood" but in JAA logbooks it's IFR or VFR, no questions about weather. Someone who flies a 737 in a shiny happy place of the world will be flying IFR anyway, even CAVOK. If you make a visual approach that's still IFR. Anyway that's what I think it should be, don't kill me :)

[Centaurus]

I-2021. The logging of flight time on instruments as legislated by the Australian Civil Aviation Authority goes back to the wartime days where RAAF pilot log books had a column for what was then termed "Actual" instrument flying. It had nothing to do with IFR or VFR flight plans. It was all to do about whether you were flying the aeroplane in clouds when of course you relied on the flight instruments to keep blue side up. The inside cover of RAAF pilot log books had the following instructions (among other things):

13. Recording of Instrument Flying Time...Instrument flying times are recorded in Columns 9 and 10 of the Pilot's Flying Log Book as either "actual" or "simulated" instrument flying as follows:

(a) All flying time when the aircraft cannot be controlled by reference to external visual aids and all manoeuvres are carried out solely by reference to instruments is to count as actual instrument flying. ...All flying time when conditions artificially created demand that all manoeuvres be carried out solely by reference to instruments is to count as "simulated" flying time.

Flying on autopilot was not considered for the purpose of logging instrument flight time based on the obvious premise that specific instrument flying handling skills were not needed for this purpose.

Different civil aviation authorities have different rules, of course. In basic terms, an hour of manual flight on instruments in IMC whether it be in a Cessna 172 or a Boeing 747 is worth heaps more in sheer flying experience than ten hours studiously gazing at an automatic pilot doing the same job - if you get my drift..

[nugpot]

all manoeuvres are carried out solely by reference to instruments

I think this is the crux. Our company mandates autoflight in weather below certain minimas. Surely you should be logging I/F if you need to log the approach for currency requirements.

For the original question. All the regs that I could find take flight (block) time for logbook purposes from the time that the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight until it shuts down after landing in the gate.

This means that all of us steal a little time when we get a pushback or take the time from doors closed.

Personally I'd select the second one as when the doors are closed, I am fully responsible for everything that goes on in the aircraft.

You are not logging responsibility time. Can your FO and FA's only log time from T/O?

[error_401]

Just make sure you are talking FAA / JAR / etc.

All are a little different, especially when it comes to instrument time.

So what does that mean. Flying in reference to the instruments. Only about the attitude? So when flying over the clouds without any ground reference but in VMC it is not instrument time. Yet - you still fly by reference to the navigation instruments.

[nugpot]

When flying in solid clag from T/O to landing, I only log the approach phase as I/F. Rest of the time I am just concentrating on keeping my coffee in the cup.;)