Locked Flight Deck Door Policy

[Homepage]

I've been reading the previous topic below with interest. I feel there are a few good points made in it, but the thread is running off track now.

What I'd like is contributions from people who have informed and considered views about it. I've got some strong personal objections to aspects of the current system, and I hope I can explain these clearly below.

Before I proceed, I must say that I do abide by these rules which is what my employer trusts me and pays me to do. (Somewhat reluctantly in some cases I suppose).


As it stands, the rules are clear about access. i.e. Only open to company employees, CAA ops inspectors, ATC visits.

We allow these people in to our flight decks in the knowledge that they have been through an approved security vetting procedure, gained security clearance and have authorisation from the company to sit on the jump seat. I may have never met these people in my life, but I put 100% trust in the system. I must now try to put the 'what if?' fears out of my head.

Believe me I'm not a paranoid soul, because if I were I'd never go to work in the first place! But then I ask were the guys on board the FedEx paranoid about their colleague who took a liking to the fire axe? Of course not. Why? Because they too put their trust in the system.

How much protection is in the system?

It might be a good time to remind you that FAA registered aircraft have had electronically lockable flight deck doors since long before Sept11th 2001. The procedures we employ now reduce the risk of the Sept11th type hijack dramatically.

There is a lot at stake which is resting on that 100% trust. Ultimately the survival of all on board, and possibly others on the ground.

Is it fair to say that as crew, we automatically enter in to a 100% trust agreement every time we operate an aircraft together? I think so.

On that basis I find it absurd that as professionals, we cannot extend the privilege of flight deck visits to people from our private lives that we trust implicitly - 100%. As I said earlier, a lot is at stake with flight deck access. Let me ask do you trust your husband/wife/partner/son/daughter/brother/sister any less than the other members of your crew? Perhaps you may even trust your family members more. The rules as they stand, don't allow family to visit the flight deck either. Why?

The commander and crew are entrusted by the operator and regulator to safeguard the security of the aircraft. They do this using their discretion, judgement and common sense with a constant string of issues in operational life. And they do it well.

Why does the regulator feel it is unnacceptable for the commander and crew to apply that same judgement to flight deck visits? Specifically flight deck visits by immediate family members. Admittedly it's the family part that really gets me. It is now illegal for my own parents to visit the flight deck. These wonderful people who gave me life, love, support and encouragement in everything I've done for the 26 years of my life so far. It is with their support I chose to enter this career. Without them I couldn't have done it. Now they can't come and see their child at work. That genuinley saddens me. I know they'll survive without it, but I can only imagine the sense of pride and achievement that sharing a day out on the line with them would bring to each of us. It would also let me thank them for their support and show the finished product of this long journey I embarked upon years ago.

The cynical side of me realises that those responsible for making the rules will not suffer any loss of privilege. No, instead they can sleep well in their beds knowing that the world passing below my aircraft is safe from my mother. :ugh: (That's not a general slur at all the good work done by DFT,CAA etc. who I know are well intentioned in everything they do).

What can we do to change the situation in a legitimate, formal, procedural fashion?

Here's my suggestion: Family member completes Disclosure Scotland procedure. Take the results to your company. The company, when it's requirements are satisfied, creates a boarding pass to grant visit for a day's duty. Flight Ops are informed and will notify the crew at check in. Family member is pre-boarded or discretely seated in flight deck. Image is not comprimised. Everyone is happy.

Maybe someday in the not too distant future, my immediate family members can come see me at work by following the proper channels.

I really would like some proper discussion about this and particularly welcome any criticism of my thoughts, as I may indeed have the wrong spin on this.

Thanks, Homepage.

and breathe. :ugh:

[Bealzebub]

Yes it is a shame the thread has been hijacked by the usual "banal banter brigade". It is a different subject but I agree with much of what you say.

Prior to the introduction of the post 9/11 DfT procedures I could take my family or the first officers family or indeed any of the crewmembers family at my discretion on the flight deck, and often did. Now I cannot take anybody at all unless there is space in the cabin, or sometimes utilising a spare cabin crew jump seat in the cabin.

As you say there is a lengthy list of qualifying people who can be authorized the jump seats, and although ultimately it still devolves to my discretion, in reality it is often directed by other offices within the company. In most cases they are people I do not know, but I suppose that point is somewhat academic.

In fairness I do not think there is any particular desire on the part of the companies management to prevent family members travelling as they once did. However the DfT directives on this subject tie their hands as much as it does ours and forbids it. I think it will take a concerted effort to achieve a reversal of government policy on this. Obviously that is not an impossible task, but I wonder who has the time or collective inclination to mount the challenge ? perhaps it should be addressed to the relevant unions by their members. Maybe an orchestrated campaign of letter writing to M.P's might have some effect ?

Unfortunetaly I don't think there is the will on sufficient peoples part to effect a change of policy. I wish it wasn't so.

[tiggerific_69]

finally thank you for a sensible reply,some people seem to think i agreed with what the captain did by letting the lad go into the flight deck,however if it was my place i would not have let the boy in there during the flight.
I agree with you homepage about taking family members into the flight deck.i would love to take my boyfriend on a trip and let him set in there for a couple of sectors,and im sure he would enjoy it too and be fascinated.but its just the way things are now and unfortunately we have to accept that.
there was one point you made about flight deck visits being Illegal unless the person was authorised to be in there.i did not know this,and this has further encouraged me to possibly speak to a manager of mine who is also a very good friend,and ask his thoughts first before i do anything "official" so to speak.
im not a grass,i dont moan about people doing petty things and report them for it,but i do feel that this was a compromise of safety and your thoughts on what i should do would be appreciated,obviously being flight crew yourself.
thank you

[Crossunder]

I can't believe that you are putting "legal" ahead of SAFE. That's two different cups of tea alltogether... It's not LEGAL to drive more than 80km/h on some roads, but that does not mean that, at 5AM, with zero traffic - I'll stick to that particular speed! And on another occasion, it might be mid-winter, and I'll go 50km/h on that very same road, because that's the logical and safe thing to do. It must be up to each one of us to asses the situation. Screw the rule-makers. They are just hysterical politicians! :mad: They've managed to make every last one of us accuse/suspect our friends and colleagues of being terrorists and killers. That's Osama's true victory! My company has always let it be up to the captain to decide who can or cannot, visit the flight deck. That's the way it should be. The whole point of this SOP charade is to make people FEEL safe, not actually BE safe. If someone wants to hi-jack or blow up a commercial passenger aircraft - that's exactly what they'll do. Us making our own, and other peoples's lives miserable will not enhance safety at all. New rules and policies, affecting underlying factors far beyond aviation, needs to be made, to prevent 9/11 from happening again. You cannot make a problem go away by making it illegal... The captain is the master and commander of his/her ship, and the idiots in Washington and Bruxelles can drop dead.

[Anne.Nonymous]

Crossunder - may I say that you are absolutely right - YOU are the master and commander but Heaven help us if it is anything more than the Current Type in your profile! It is self-opinionated idiots like you that seem to think they know more about terrorism than the authorities. Screw the rule-makers. They are just hysterical politicians! They've managed to make every last one of us accuse/suspect our friends and colleagues of being terrorists and killers. I certainly do not accuse or suspect my friends of being terrorists. However rule makers also dictate such things as Decision Heights - do you disregard those rules also?

To return to the thread...

Having been closely involved with the security arrangements and the subsequent procedures immediately after 9/11 to the present day I can assure you that those involved in the decision making were closely involved with the airline industry and NOT just the politicians and their civil servants. A large number of them were, and are still, pilots.

The aim was to stop an aircraft being used as a missile. Full Stop.

Preventing access to the Flight Deck is the only way for the pilots to continue to safely land the aircraft - hence the armoured door.

The problems caused by this door such as the CRM have, in my experience, been largely overcome. Confirmation of those seeking access by CCTV has maintained the security of the FD. SOPs have encapsulated the changeover of heavy crews, refreshements and 'physiological' breaks.

Given that there is now a fortress flight deck, why would any government minister now see fit to say "OK the threat has gone away and anyone can go in the flight deck anytime"?

The alleviations to allow other people in the flight deck are just those that have a REAL reason to be there i.e. CAA / AAIB inspectors on duty, flight test engineers on duty, Air Traffic controllers on duty and Training pilots conducting training.

Additionally staff of that airline on duty may travel in the flight deck when there are no seats in the cabin if the company has a centralised ID issuing system - this is to allow identified, deadheading aircrew of that airline to use the jump-seat when the aircraft is full. A commonsense approach.


I wish it were not necessary but whilst the terrorist threat is still there in the UK (London bombing 7/7) then we must face up to it - sadly this is with us for the foreseeable future.

Anne :( :(

[tiggerific_69]

Thank you Anne for your insight.i totally agree with you about only relevant people being allowed in the flight deck.even now we sometimes take a drink into the flight deck during the flight,but i always put a trolley in the way and make sure tere is another crew member the other side of it,or close the curtain so passengers cant see the door being opened,depending which aircraft im on.sometimes flight crew go to the toilet during the flight and on our one aircraft the only toilet is at the rear so they have to walk through the cabin,it always makes me uneasy but if they have to go then so be it.the safety of these guys is most important,after all theyre the ones who will land us safely.

[markflyer6580]

The rules for such things should rest with the individual airlines,the end decision being made by the man in charge,(the captain,not stelios or branson!).
If this was the case then the responsibility is on the crew and the airline not on the CAA or the DFT(departement for trivial rules?).
If there was a hijack/accident etc as a result of any thing related to visits etc then the blame would be on the captain and the airline that trusts his decision making ability,I think we all know that the airline would get the blame and compensation claims wether they followed the rules or not.
Its about time for some coomon sense on these matters unfortunately that is out of stock in government agencies.:ok:

[RatherBeFlying]

The record shows that the only hijack attempt by a person voluntarily admitted to the flight deck was by a FedEx employee who knew he was about to be terminated.

All the other kids, parents, spouses, other relatives, fellow employees, ATC, journos and enthusiasts behaved themselves.

[davedek]

Im not particularly knowledgeable on this subject, so I hope somebody will be able to answer this question without flaming me....

What if the 2 pilots are behind a locked door, and something dramatic (and extremely unlikely) happened - e.g. both pilots get electrectued, or are sucked out of the plane... or any other equally unreal and unlikely (but still theoretically possible) scenario....

Anyway: What if that happened, are F/As able to unlock the door from the outside at all? And if not, what would happen next???

[Homepage]

Thanks for the useful inputs so far. Useless ones; go to the other locked door policy thread, you'll be welcome there. :)

tiggerific_69 and Anne.nonymous check your p.m's

[Brian Abraham]

John Watkins, TAA Director of Engineering, floated the hypothesis that the VH-TFB F-27 accident (all 29 died) at Mackay in 10/6/60 may have been contributed to by a school boy in the cockpit dropping a bottle of model aircraft fuel. The official finding was left open. See 'Air Crash' Vol 2 by Macarthur Job.

The report into the QF over run says that the presence of the second officers wife on the flight deck did not adversely influence any aspect of the flight. It would have been interesting if there had been a more detailed examination of the human factors involved. The captain asked of the second officer (PF) at one stage 'You happy?' (with the approach) while the the PF later said that he was probably near his personal limits at the time. Did her presence subtly change the interaction between the left/right seats?

It is a sad day though that visits are now frowned upon. I am grateful of the pilots of a certain airline who allowed a snotty nosed teenager to accompany them on some of their flights in the cockpit as non paying SLF - and even gave him a drive when no pax on board. Regulators/management will always write a rule banning something if there is the slightest chance it may cause them grief. How many aircrew has security caught attempting to cause trouble?

[Evileyes]

No further discussion regarding operating procedures of the Flight Deck doors please. If you need to know, you already do.

[Captain Stable]

Following on from Evileyes' post, I concur entirely with his post regarding how the doors are operated, used and so on.

If, however, anyone wishes to pursue further and other alternatives to locked doors and methods to maintain CRM effectiveness, team spirit etc., please feel free. These are valid concerns and we would not wish to inhibit PPRuNers' well-known spirit of debate and inventiveness! :O

[tailwheel76]

I agree with the majority of what is said and would love my family to spend a day at work with me. However, WE all know and trust our families, but my colleague on the flightdeck does not. Therefore the company has to apply the same rules to visitors as it does to us to ensure I can trust my colleagues family without hesitation.

Am I right in thinking disclosure scotland can only give you a basic disclosure if you have resided in the UK over 30 years or something? Beyond that they have no record? If this is the case then there are potentially people, albeit a minority, we fly with who do not have this basic check carried out, so one could argue our family shouldnt require it either, it should just be up to the company.

The other major sticking point will be getting them though airport security, and considering how rigorous they are when looking for weapons carried by the 2 people flying a weapon, imagine how they will be with mums, dads, and other close family. If there was a big enough concerted effort by airlines to allow pre-authorised flight deck visits, there is no reason it should be rejected, rules can easily be created and with a bit of effort managed to maintain a safe working enviornment for all.

Look how aviation has changed from the 1950's, how many rules and regulations have changed and been managed in the short period to now.

[I-FORD]

Here's my suggestion: Family member completes Disclosure Scotland procedure...

Here is my suggestion:
If you are the captain take your family in the cockpit, if anybody in the crew disagrees you have many ways to convince them.
If you are not the captain ask the captain you are going to fly with next time.
He could say no but for sure, sooner or later, you will find somebody mentally ready to accept that incredibly dangerous breach of security and allow them in the cockpit.
In both cases, if any snake will report you to your management, just deny the fact, unless the snake took pictures of the security breach there is no way to prove it.:ok:

[MaxReheat]

I-Ford, mate, I'm entirely with you on this one. We all know that the 'law is an ass' on the subject of family and personal friends on the flight-deck and yet we, as a huge world-wide workforce have rolled over, smiled at the idiots who forced these rules upon us and taken it. Time for a bit of 'civil disobedience'.:ok:

[MonarchA330]

Im currently doing my training, will be joining the orange airline when Im finished in a year or so. I have wanted to be a pilot since I was 8 years old ever since I made my 1st flight deck visit on a Cyprus Airways A320 (I think it was!). I know it sounds cheesy and cliche but I turly believe it was that visit that did it for me. Becoming a pilot is all I have ever wanted to do since then and now I am finally doing it.

Throughout that time my parents have given me everything in order to get me where I want to be. Time, love, encouragement and what seems most important in getting into this industry, financial support. My dad always says how proud he will be when he can be on that 1st flight with me so why can't he actually see what Im doing rather than from a position he's sat in hundreds of times before?

I know I have no experience of working on the line as of yet, but my feelings as of now are that I would feel much more safe with my own father on the flight deck than some 'company employee' who I may have never met before.

I know that the whole airside pass thing is there to weed out any potential terrorists, but how good IS the system? What with the number of (blood sucking) journalists who manage to get airside passes just like that and 'company employees' who get friendly with an axe on their 'colleagues', at least I know how my dad is going to behave - politely, honoured and extremely proud.

Bealzebub did mention in his post that there must be some official means in which we can try to get this changed... does anyone have any ideas regarding this?
I dont want to cause problems for my company, I just want to share my joy of finally getting where I wanted to be for 14 years with my family. Just once.

M330

[BOAC]

I suggest talking to your fleet manager or DFO when you get there. Things constantly change in aviation.

[tailwheel76]

Any ideas how this can be progressed? Who makes the ultimate decision the airlines or the DfT?

[Nil further]

Monarch A330 ,maybe you should chande you handle if your joining the "orange mob":O

Im ALready there and i think most Commanders of UK aircraft realise that there is not a chance in our lifetime of this one changing , the implications for the government and the personal liabilities that would fall on Directors heads will never allow a change.

Just think of the pregnant wife and mother of his kids that one of the london bombers left behind . I know a lot of my colleagues reasonably well ,do i know them well enough to say that their wife/brother/sister is not the next suicide bomber ,no way .

On a side note ,i believe there is a certain airline operating Saab 340 in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland where pax are still routinely carried on the jumpseat , heard an FO blowing on the other day about taking their girlfriend up for a couple of sectors as well. So if you really want to take your dad up for a birl then that could be the job for you.

Having said all that , the proudest moment of my life was a xmas eve surprise for my 80 year old dad a few years ago when i took him to England for 20 mins ! his one and only time in England and an unforgetable day for both of us.

Shame its gone , but it has ...... for good .

NF

[Captain Stable]

tailwheel - the government makes many rules. Some of these come via the CAA in their regulatory function. Others are simply THE LAW.

I suggest you look at BOAC's post above, and talk to your DFO when you get there. Until then, there's not much point in further discussion here.

Furthermore, any further discussion will not only not help you, but may also assist those who we realyy wouldn't like to get past the flight deck door.

With that, I declare this discussion closed.