TAKE OFF MINIMA and RWY LIGHTS?

[popay]

Hi there, just for sake of interest. We had a discussion the other day about the required RWY marking or lights for night operation. Following scenario was there: CAVOK, Night, NO RWY lights. The question is can you take off or not? Well as usual different people different opinion, referring to the same page.
Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 1.430 there's a general part and then
Visual reference. The take-off minima must be selected to ensure sufficient guidance to control the aeroplane in the event of both a
discontinued take-off in adverse circumstances and a continued take-off after failure of the critical power unit and the minima selected shouldn't be lower than table 1 which basically says lowest RVR/VIS 500 Abbreviation of table 1.
Facilities NIL RVR/Visibility (Note 3) (Day only) 500 m-Runway edge lighting and/or centreline marking
250/300 m (Notes 1 & 2) Runway edge and centreline lighting
200/250 m (Note 1) Runway edge and centreline lighting and
multiple RVR information 150/200 m (Notes 1 & 4). Sorry I cant copy the table. The most important Note 2: For night operations at least runway edge and runway end lights are required. That's where the opinions are drifting apart. One says regardless of VIS/RVR by night, coming back to our example, the lights mentioned in Note 2 are required even if its CAVOK. The others on the other hand say, wait a sec, that's a requirement with VIS/RVR from 500 to 400 by night. Basically one looks from 400 to 500 and above nothing is required whereas the others look from CAVOK down to 400 where LVP starts, saying that nothing is required by day and two of the lights by night. 10-9 chart doesn't say anything about night, just 500 by day only req. NIL.
SO the question again is: NIGHT, CAVOK, NO RWY Lights, can you take off or not? If not, what lights are required?
Would like to hear your opinions guys, thanks.

[Empty Cruise]

JAR-OPS 1 operator - no. Edge lights & REIL req'd.

Non-OPS-1 - your guess prolly better than mine :O

Empty

[popay]

Empty Cruise, just to clarify the things. Taking it to the extreme, lets say RVR/VIS is 501 m so does still that mean no RWY lights are required by night? I mean, do you say that if the RVR/VIS is above 500 m, by night or day you don't any lights. Is that correct?

[Gary Lager]

Some Runway lights (as described by EC) are ALWAYS required by night, regardless of vis - specifically, Edge and End Lights.

Perhaps you misread EC's post - in answer to your question:

NIGHT, CAVOK, NO RWY Lights, can you take off or not? If not, what lights are required?

Can you take off? NO

Lights required: As EC says, End & Edge lights.

[tired]

Agree with Gary - you need edge lights and end lights, no matter what the vis is. For commercial ops anyway, private flights are another thing....... ;)

[Empty Cruise]

Alternatively...

...bearded guy in long robes, carrying illuminated sign stating: "Then end is near!" :D

:) Empty :)

[popay]

That makes sense, guys. So always lights by night. Alright thanks.

[I-2021]

Well I guess also private flights need some kind of lights :D Never happened to land with a Cessna without any kind of lights... at least mobile Edge Lights and REIL... even on a 600m grass runway.

[Miles Magister]

JAR-OPS as above.

Private Ops as per national regulations. Both the country of registration and the country of operation, whichever is the most restrictive.

Info can usually be found in the relevent national AIP, most of which are available on line.

MM

[popay]

I-2021, mate landing is a different story though. We were talking about take off, but since you brought it up. For landing you only need either RCL or Edge lights or segment of the approach lights. I dont have the JAR OPS 1 right next to me, but thats the requiremnt if I recall it correctly. I think the whole idea about it to have reference so you can identify your position and approach.
Cheers.:8

[I-2021]

woooops :O Oh yes I've read the thread again, zzorry :8

[Sir George Cayley]

..you've highlighted an ineresting dichotemy between airport and airline regulation.

In the UK AGL requirements are containted in CAP168 Chapter 6
There are scales L1 to L sumfink or other for each mode of ops. If an airort operator wants a licence they have to meet the criteria eg a certain extent of lights to permit ops in certain viz.

JAR Ops-1 was written on the flightdeck with a more global view.

To highlight the differences think about a full CATIII B autoland.

CAP168 would require APP THRSLD SUPP EDGE C/L REIL etc etc.
But actually yer average 757 would need..........


Taxiway lead offs !!!!



Discuss and a Happy New Year to all


Sir George Cayley