ALAEA impotence (merged)

[sys 4]

it's now been about a month since Geoff Dixon has flagged that Heavy Maint maybe outsourced and the ALAEA have still not shown their faces to let the membership know what they are doing about the threat.Valve for money,i don't think so.They get $546 a yr from me to represent my interests and they have not even put out a memo to let us know what they are doing about it.
Roll on June,it will be make or break for us all if these fools get back in.

[Apophis]

ALAEA ? i get better service from my free video store membership.

[Turbo 5B]

I believe their advice is to take the money and run, or move to Brisbane and wait to get sold off up there as well.
Ahh.. there's nothing like strong leadership in a crisis.
In fact the one of the Heavy Maintenance reps took a package and the other wanted to.
It is time for a change.

[Mr Qantas]

Without the gidance and leadership of our senior alaea officials much of the work that has been kept in Australia at the joint alaea-forestaff facilaty at Avalon would be off shore by now. We have alot to thank the experienced staff in Bexley for and there understanding of the industry as a whole.

What do you expect the alaea to say about the hm redundancies. It looks like more than enough staff were happy to accept them and the big payouts that go with em. Sys 4 you seem to be angry evey time you belt drible into your salary sacraficed keyboard. Oh thats right the salary sacrafice that your asociation won for you!

[Apophis]

There is no e in FORSTAFF Mr Qantas.

[sys 4]

Firstly,that's my wage that pays for the laptop.
Secondly Qantas would be economical irresponsible to it's share holders if they didn't offer salary sacrifice to it's employees due to payroll tax,and finally i expect them to say something and do something about what GD has said about outsourcing of HM,that is what they are payed for.A SERVICE.

edited for profanity W

[Apophis]

i am begining to think mr.qantas may have been at avalon at some time i have several suspects who liked to preach the company line.

[BHMvictim]

...looks like I should be looking for jobs whilst over here holidaying in Europe. Turbo 5B.... from what I can work out, you were a union delegate for the AWU.... thought about becomming official for the ALAEA?

[inthefluffystuff]

Mr. QANTAS


Just read your post: Forestaff,gidance,evey,sacraficed,sacrafice and asociation please use a spell checker before your dribble comes out, ALAEA stands for "we are an extension of Qantas" as they do not seem to stand up for the people that pay the dues.

The best part is that they(Qantas) poach the rank and file members and give jobs to the ones that seem to have some brains then turn them against the members that had supported them.

[sys 4]

don't forget guys,nexted June the elections are on for the nexted Exec Committee.
Just about everyone you talk too,in Heavy in Syd and Servicing want these guys out.
Maintain the rage because their time is coming to an end,also sounds like Avalon want them gone as well
edited for profanity W

[sport]

Be on your guard for an eleventh hour twist, doubt whether these guys will go down without one final sell out.

Their future careers depend on it, Qantas won't be looking forward to taking on the new kid on the block, they have had it too easy up 'til now.

[MRS QANTAS]

Untill some of the disgruntled qf guys and girls are ready to put their hands up for alaea positions, its always going to be the same..hate to say it, you wont make a difference, to many old boys and *******caught in their ways....start looking after yourself..

Edited profanities

Woomera (Eastern States)

[inthefluffystuff]

Ah A Mrs Qantas, by your tone Mr Qantas will sure get ahead. Job is not real secure hey

[No SAR No Details]

Perhaps some of the learned members of this group such as "sys 4" may like to inform us lesser lights as to how they would change the organisation that they seem hell bent on damning.

That way those of us that remain on the fringes and uncertain which way to turn could examine your proposals and compare them to what we have been experiencing so far.

I for one would be interested in seeing if those you suggest can do a better job on my behalf actually have something that might make me consider voting at all let alone for anyone in particular.

We only ever seem to hear, or read for that matter, from those who have a particular point of view but really, if ever is that view supported by reasoned arguement or discussion and it MAY be helpful to hear what you have in mind before I make my mind up one way or another.

[Woomera]

Sorry NoSAR, but we're behind closed doors where sys 4 is concerned!!! :}

Sadly he/she won't be able to espouse his/her work ethic in this thread or forum.

:E

Woomera

[Turbo 5B]

Woomera, what the **** does that mean?
Has SYS 4 been bumped from the forum or something?
It is not wise to use profanities in comments to W

[Rocket Rob]

Have been watching this thread and am involved in a part of this upsetting movement of job loses and the new year is here, sure hope it is not going to be too hard on us.

Not too sure the ALAEA is doing us any good at all but hear rumors of another union about to appear on the scene, hope it is usefull.

[The masked goatrider]

Sacking the industrial manager CR would be the first change made. It earns over 100K a year and is nothing more than an industrial burden. Someone with a legal background needs to be employed as the manager and negotiator for the benefit of the members. Other changes are currently in the pipeline by the "takeover" group and the choices will most certainly be made public prior to your choice for the new Executive.

[Turbo 5B]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the success rate has been from the ALAEA industrial staff in any disputes or commission hearings in the past 2 yrs?
Have they successfully challenged or won aything?

[Mr Qantas]

If you questioning the sucess rate of the alaea industrial staff you must have your head in the sand for the last 2 years 5B. I asume you still have a job ****)++and if that is the gauge that we using to measure the sucess rate then I think you'll find that Chris and his team are doing a remarkable job in what must be classed as the most trying times in aviaton history. As for the goat ******* idea of replacing the manager with a legal proffessional you must be kidding. CR has been a loyal and sucessful combatent for all lames over a long period of time and you and your Mexican cronies will never replace him with a green ass lawyer who knows nothing about our industry. Good luck and good rittens if that is the only old chestnut you wheel out when the election comes around. Stabilety is paramount in these troubled times and only a proven and expereinced leadership group can guide the lames through the changes we all face.

Edited by Woomera

[Woomera]

Mr Qantas you can take the rest of the day off. If you persist with your name calling, you will be banned indefinitely.

Woomera Eastern States)

[Sunfish]

I keep hearing this echo about stability and the preservation of jobs at any cost. Exactly what will you do to preserve jobs at any cost Mr. Qantas? WHere do you draw the line in the sand and say "So far, no further"?

What you say makes no sense because your argument is that any number of jobs can be destroyed provided that at least one job remains.

To put it another way, If Mr. Dixon announces that 3000 jobs are "under threat" (which is a great negotiating tactic) and following negotiations by the likes of yourself, 2900 jobs disappear and 100 minimum wage jobs remain, you will call this a "success".

The same tactic can be repeated ad infinitum, but then again, you must know that and have your own personal escape plan anyway.

[Turbo 5B]

I noticed that Mr Qantas, in his defence of the industrial success rate of the trusted ALAEA staff, failed to mention was successes they had had.
In amongst the abuse and name calling it was suggested that they were successful because I still have a job.Well, had not a sufficient amount of my colleagues volunteered to cease work with Qantas I may not have had a job, the advice from the industrial staff to Qantas' intentions to reduce staff in Sydney was to move myself and my family to Brisbane or quit. There was no mention of the discussions had with Qantas on how to avoid the redundancies (as required by the EBA's) or to bring back some of the "overflow work" stolen by Forstaff in Avalon. In fact there was no discussion with the members affected by the job losses by anyone from the ALAEA exec or industrial staff, even though it was requested on numerous occasions.
Mr Qantas, you can praise the snr IR officer at the ALAEA until the cows come home, but your argument that a properly legally trained IR officer couldn't do the job is way off the mark.
What is required is a fresh approach with someone that Qantas can't bluff.
It is time for some changes.
In fact I don't think you'll get relected next elections either:{

[U.K. SUBS.]

Turbo.......we've been down the road about forstaff taking syd's work for almost eight years ( yes eight years)!!!!. In order not to sound repititious the primary reason avv came into being was the lie by qf that they wanted to offshore maint. Now it is used very efficiently as a baton to use for the forthcoming battle with EBA'S in relation to IR. I know i'm rabbiting on a bit but i really do think we have to focus on what is ahead for all of engineering. Getting stuck in the mire with the likes of mr qf is going nowhere.

[Turbo 5B]

What do you define as all engineering?
Is it maintaining a core base of servicing mechanics or is it attempting to preserve the entire qantas engineering team with all it's skills and experience and quality for future generations?
Or do you allow geoff and co make a quick buck and take a packet home when they quit?

[The masked goatrider]

Avalon. Another ALAEA success story. Setup by the union as a joint venture for overflow work out of Sydney. 1000 heavy staff now reduced to 200 so a cut price facility within our country can reduce the wages and conditions of Aussie LAMEs.

Mr Qantas, when you are allowed to return, can you please elaborate on the wins the ALAEA has had over the past 2 years within the courts to defend our wages, conditions and job security? Can you do that without being abusive to the other readers? The only win I am aware of is the battle to keep the AMWU out of Avalon. How does this benefit our members? A single union representing engineers at a cut price maint facility that CR and friends helped setup.

Mr Qantas would you like to explain what the ALAEA is doing for the members at Avalon? What have they done to obtain parity between the Forstaff guys and those at Qantas? Do you understand what you are saying or see the big picture of what the airline and union have done together to damage our members? Where are the 800 guys who no longer work in HM?

Take your experienced leaders and idolise them in your own capacity. LAMEs at Qantas and Avalon have had enough of the secret meetings and deals behind closed doors. The actions of the senior ALAEA officials is completely transparent and every step as predictable as the next. Just waiting for them to invite BD back into the Bexley offices to "fight for our jobs".

[Mr Qantas]

Avalon gets employment for over 1000 Australians Mr rider. We can thank the alaea that this work isnt in China.:ok:

[Sunfish]

Dear Dear Mr. Qantas! You have absolutely no logical basis for your statement "We can thank the alaea that this work isnt in China". You only have your negotiating opponents word for that. You cannot prove it!

Mr. Qantas. There is such a thing as a bluff. Now a bluff occurs when someone threatens to perform some act that is going to be deleterious to you. You have no way of knowing if the other person is going to perform this act or not. It is merely a threat.

Now there is only one way to discover if another person is bluffing and that is to "call" the bluff. In other words refuse to behave as requested by the threatener.

Now it appears to me from ALL your posts that you are a credulous believer in EACH AND EVERY THREAT that QF management has ever made, and furthermore, you consistently repeat these threats to your members as if they were true. In other words, you have never, ever, called Qantas as bluffing.

Now there are a number of possible reasons for this. You may judge that the company is not bluffing on the basis of your superior knowledge of world maintenance demand and developments. But on the other hand, you may have no such knowledge and be concerned to preserve your own employment at whatever cost.

Trouble is the only way to know if the company is bluffing is to call it, and then live with the industrial consequences.

I had a gutfull of worthless union reps who sold us out in the 70's and early 80's - and who subsequently joined the company in HR.

I would suggest to you that if QF told you that unless your members agreed to work for five dollars an hour, that their maintenance jobs were going to be moved to Zambia, you would tell all your members to agree immediately.

The correct response is often to call the bluff - something you will never do.

[INCOGNIT0]

As incredulous as this may sound especially to ******** Mr Q that all the years of squabbling, back stabbing & **** ******for courses to become the aspired to position of LAME has caused a gluttony in the Australian market and hence the demise of our power/stature.

How can a local operator compete in the world market when a high percentage of the workforce are LAME’s with too many being paid to rarely exercise their privileges and generally do **** ** except to prance around and proclaim themselves as the pinnacle of aviation in the world and waste time till the office job comes up. In reality their License is not recognised as equal in most parts of the world and the company has no hope of attracting foreign planes for maintenance to sustain the maintenance facility when there is an inefficient, over priced workforce continually venting their dissent at the company and the system.

Companies don’t give a rat’s about your belief in fastidious maintenance anymore, they just want the job done for as little as possible with minimum guidelines satisfied and out the door as quick as possible, this is the unfortunate way Airline’s think today, including Q and if you don’t change with the evolving maintenance of aircraft then maybe you should re-think your career path.
The ALAEA are only part of the problem though their clandestine antics are not helping the situation.

Mr Q just take a good look around at you and your draconian cronies and clean up your own inefficiencies in your backyard instead of vexing your poisonous innuendo at a workforce your helping to destroy, typical blame policy that should be dead in today’s society, the problems in Q start at the top.

And on the point of AVV, they had a perfect opportunity to be a competitive lean engineering MRO but opted to follow Q’s line and now the dissent there exceeds Mascot with more incompetent, over paid Chiefs than Indians, it seems that if they don’t pick up their game that the workers will have to go knocking for work on the door of the American conglomerate invasion soon to hit the shores of AVV, might get a bit hot in a Walt Disney costume though!!


edited for profanity and vilification W

[soldier of fortune]

lets see-qantas future direction for engineering-
sack every one employ a handfull LAMEs and tell the goverment they need skilled workers due to a unforseen lack of manpower. go oversea's and recruit a bunch of philapinoes and bring them back on the new IR laws paid $10 bucks per hour they work 16 hours per day and a handfull LAMEs to supervise.
-call it extreme but it could happen

[AN LAME]

[QUOTE=...so a cut price facility within our country can reduce the wages and conditions of Aussie LAMEs. ...".[/QUOTE]

Please goatrider could you explain how Forstaff employees are disadvantaged with regard to pay scales compared to QF? From what I have read of the respective agreements, they are almost identical. Otherwise, I'll assume that you are partaking in your usual tactic of misrepresenting the facts to support your argument

edited for profanity/vilification W

[The masked goatrider]

Good question ****,
Firstly I have not declared that the pay scales aren’t the same although the Forstaff agreement doesn’t recognise payment for all Qantas aircraft. I like the way you have tried to twist that one to suit your purpose. I claim that the cut price maintenance facility reduces the wages and conditions of Australian LAMEs by taking the entire package as a whole and comparing it to Qantas employed staff. Lets look how they do this.


- restricted access to staff travel.
- no recognition in the licence pay system for other aircraft licences held within the Qantas fleet.
- refusal by Forstaff management to negotiate or attend meetings whilst the two elected Forstaff ALAEA Councillors are in attendance.
- payment for 737 rating only whilst working the aircraft.
- substandard and limited issue of uniforms.
- compulsory overtime banking.
- no right to site representation by the AMWU.
- no options for redeployment to other Qantas departments through redundancy programs.
- inability to apply internally for vacancies within the Qantas system.


The list goes on and on **** but I’m sure you are aware of all the problems that the ALAEA have swept under the carpet over the years. Also I think you’d know about the single biggest saving the airline has made by eliminating the positions of hundreds of long serving, high level Sydney LAMEs and replacing the positions at the cut price facility with new employees all starting at the bottom end of the pay scale. Many of them imported from overseas with non English speaking backgrounds. Taking jobs from Australians who can’t afford the wage cut and travel expenses to the ass end of the earth.


Thanks for the question mate; I feel like I’m the Minister of Transport here and have just been asked a question from one of my own backbenchers during parliamentary question time. Look forward to dealing with you, **** and the rest of the Qantas management team in the near future.

edited for outing, we do not use real names without the express permission of the individuals concerned. This would normally invoke a ban W

[Turbo 5B]

That was like the opposition giving the government a "dorothy dixer".
I can see why qf management have walked all over these guys for years, without them even realising.
In fact, that was probably the best example of "ALAEA Impotence" (as the thread is titled) that I have ever seen.

[AN LAME]

Goatrooter.

As impressive as others have found your response, I am singularly unimpressed as usual, when you take into account, amongst others, the fact that Forstaff are not Qantas:
- Staff Travel is made available to employees who do not work for QF (A positive)
- Licence recognition of other Qantas types is indeed an issue which needs to be addressed by the ALAEA. However, as other posters have stated, today's MRO's are unlikely to acquiesce
- the Forstaff Councillors are sadly lacking in any ability to represent themselves, let alone their members
- the 737 issue has beeng handled disgracefully by the ALAEA IMO
- uniforms are an OH&S issue currently under discussion I believe
- O/T Banking has been accepted at QF in HM, and having worked it I think it is a positive option for those who work-to-live not the other way about
- I would no more wish to be represented by the metals than fly
- no redeployment options? As said before, it's not QF
- internal application (see above)

As understandingly distasteful as Avalon is for long term Qantas LAMEs it has been a godsend for those who haven't worked for the rat and infact has allowed some of us, through Avalon, to join your illustrious (I'm being sarcastic) ranks. So, I believe that some of those who have never worked for the Qantas sheltered workshop may at least be grateful to the ALAEA for having jobs at Avalon, whilst being dissatisfied and indeed bitter with their performance of late - most notably the 737 payment debacle which, to those of us who live outside of the sheltered workshop, was a sell out to satisfy those inside (that means you idiot).

Whilst there are those who think my query was a Dorothy Dixer, your response indeed shows that "you are partaking in your usual tactic of misrepresenting the facts to support your argument" once again. Most of those whingeing on this forum re the ALAEA performance or "the colour of the toilet paper in the sh!thouse", or in fact anything, are long term QF, and having come from outside the organisation you are well known for that. Having said that, idiots like Mr Qantas show that indeed, there are more than one type of d!ckhead in the sheltered workshop.

[Orville]

quote=...so a cut price facility within our country can reduce the wages and conditions of Aussie LAMEs. ...".
Please goatrider could you explain how Forstaff employees are disadvantaged with regard to pay scales compared to QF? From what I have read of the respective agreements, they are almost identical. Otherwise, I'll assume that you are partaking in your usual tactic of misrepresenting the facts to support your argument

I note that the original quote was not to do with the demise of Qantas LAME's but " Aussie Lame's".

I also note that AN Lame acknowledged the significant differences between the 2 awards. Therefore actually agreeing with you "T.M.G.R.". and earning the tag "Dorothy Dixer"

It wouldn't surprise me if the ALAEA try to sell a no claim EBA next time round, because they fear the new IR rules?

edited for profanity in quote not post W

[Turbo 5B]

Goatrider
- O/T Banking has been accepted at QF in HM,
Can't leave that one alone.
O/T Banking in H/M wasn't accepted by the H/M staff, Mate.
It was recommended by 2 ignorant and irresponsible councillors representing H/M against the wishes of those they represented.
One of those fools even refused to tell his blokes if he voted for it or not.
The other one would believe anything he was told by CR and the Fed Pres.
I couldn't find 5% of the members in H/M supporting an O/T bank.(or for that matter a difference in tail payments to the members in servicing).

edited for profanity in quote W

[The masked goatrider]

Speedy response AN LAME and thanks for confirming that each of the points I have raised is valid. Yes they don't work for Qantas and the wages and conditions at the cut price Avalon maint facility set up by the ALAEA have put 800 Sydney staff out of work.

Would you like to try and shoot me down again?

[F-Class]

****
Why dont you crawl back into the hole that you dug for yourself whilst still on the commitee of the ALAEA:mad:

edited for outing and will attract a banning the next time W

[Woomera]

Right chaps.
It's taken me about 30 minutes of my time to clean up this important thread.
It would have been easier to just bin it
Zero tolerance from now on on profanity and outing, you all may know who is who but others dont. As a result they, the others, may form an opinion about someone they may think they may know but do not.
And it wont be just this thread.
There would normally be some bannings and time out but in this case every body as had a fair shake.
It is possible to have a vigourous and robust discussion without resorting to name calling kicking or eye gouging.
No arguments please just keep on going but without the angst.:mad:

See I can convey my emotion with a simple smiley:)

[Apophis]

Has anyone wondered how some of the people at avalon with non English speaking backgrounds who can hardly speak English now let alone write it are completing the job cards they are signing for let alone reading the M.M.understanding it and working to it.

[fixa24]

your right there apophis..
what about all the absolutely useless and dangerous singaporean ones they got just before ansett went down, and they still had to employ them even when they employed the ex AN people. VERY questionable skills indeed. but then again some of the ones before that are pretty hopeless too. Morale and discipline there isn't a strong point. neither is their questionable hiring practices. remember the stink kicked up when security checks were required for existing employees? some people with dodgy pasts who probably couldn't get a job in an airline because of it and now they'd been found out....:ugh:

you may wish to think about whether ALL of the persons from that country are as described and whether they have a higher per capita percentage of them than say from "Australians" whatever they may be ?
I have a different experience than "all".
It's a difficult one but lets be careful how and at whom you wave that stick eh. W

[numbskull]

I'm not sure what's stirred up this hornets nest, we're still 1 yr out from an EBA. However here's my two bobs worth.

I agree with sunfish and believe we need to call Qantas's bluff. We will always have to keep an eye on costs but I'm sick of being threatened with redundancy if I don't accept my modest 3% with huge productivity gains and management get double digit pay increases whilst QF post record profits.

However the people who ultimately accept or reject any agreement are the members of the union. While I may be disappointed at times with my union leadership I am more dissapointed with my fellow colleagues who consistantly vote to accept to erode our pay and conditions. The most agressive union leadership will make no difference if the member choose to accept the first qf offer.

I can understand peoples reluctance to enter an industrial dispute with QF because they will play hard (and the law is most definetely on their side), but if you don't know your own self worth then you will have to accept whatever Qantas thinks your worth (what's the average pay for an engineer in China?).

At some point we are going to have to stand up and be counted!!!!!!!!!!!

I know some people "get revenge" by accepting a meagre 3% increase and then produce 50% less. This is just a self defeating, soul sapping descent into mediocrity which will ensure our demise.

Whilst I am in the minority I'll just have to accept the decision of the majority until we collectively grow some balls or I'm in the position to tell QF to GO AND GET STUFFED!!!!!!!

[Rocket Rob]

All I can say is go AN LAME and Numbskull I share your opinion!!!!!

[Apophis]

avalon will have a new eba well before another year is up its coming real soon and the news will not be good conditions will be stripped to the bare bones.

[numbskull]

Good luck!!!

I hope you get a majority of people who will stand up for their rights and not be cowered by threats.

[U.K. SUBS.]

I thought about posting this info a lot but now you will see that the forstaff wishlist which will ultimatley transfer to qf in due time is quite staggering. Read these proposals carefully and see for yourself.
Clause 3.1
Where the company proposes to introduce significant business initiatives or major changes, which have a demonstrable impact on employees, the company will consult with the employees who may be affected by the proposed changes and their union as early as practicable. A demonstrable impact on employees will arise in circumstances such as major changes in technology, outsourcing or the composition, operation or size of the company's workforce or in the skills required, the elimation or diminution of job opportunities.

Clause 5.1
The objective of this agreement is to establish innovative employment arrangements that enable Avalon to effectively compete with international repair organisations allowing maint. to be kept in and attracted to, Australia.

Clause 31.8.1 (Transmission of business)
The provisions of this clause are not applicable where a business is before or after the date of this aggreement, transmitted from the company (in this subclause called the transmittor) to another employer (in this case called the transmittee) in any of the following circumstances.

Clause 31.8.1.1
Where the employee accepts employment with the transmittee which recognises the period of continuous employment which the company had with the transmittor and any prior tramsmittor to be continuous service of the employee with the transmittee or:

Clause 31.8.1.2
Where the employee rejects an offer of employment with the transmittee
(a) in which the terms and conditions are substantially similar and no less favourable, considered on an overall basis, than the terms and conditions applicable to the employee at the time of ceasing employment with the transmittor and,
(b) which recognises the period of continouous service which the employee had with the transmittor and any prior transmittor to be continuous service of the employee with the transmittee.

[numbskull]

UK SUBS there are now only five things guaranteed by law.They are;

1 2 weeks annual leave
2 10 days sick leave (with certificate)
3 12 months parental leave (unpaid)
4 minimum hourly rate approx $12 per hour-can't remember the exact amount
5 can't remember the last one- maybe someone can enlighten us?

QF can dish up an agreement that only includes these 5 minimum conditions and it will be completely legal.

If you don't like the forthcoming EBA offer then the default positoion once your EBA expires is not your current conditions but these 5 minima.

What YOU accept is up to YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where are you going to draw the line in the sand??????????

[Apophis]

Re: 5.1 This mob can’t effectively plan and carry out work on there own aircraft let alone work on another companies aircraft not that this is the fault of the people on the floor they have all but given up trying to fight the system they have to work with and just go along with what ever the highly paid tossers running the place want and collect the cash each week.

Clause 5.1
The objective of this agreement is to establish innovative employment arrangements that enable Avalon to effectively compete with international repair organisations allowing maint. to be kept in and attracted to, Australia.

[domo]

OK the union is full of people using it to better themselfs thats wrong to most people but the only people interested in these jobs have a hidden agenda.

good news who got sacked, retrenched in the last 10 years that did not want to go

who messed up and could have gone but for the alaea
what do you want a left leaning commonist party that will fight to the death or an insurance policy that you hope you will not need. they are effictive because you do not see them like an antivirus

good on ya the alaea

[planemad2]

OK the union is full of people using it to better themselfs thats wrong to most people but the only people interested in these jobs have a hidden agenda.
good news who got sacked, retrenched in the last 10 years that did not want to go
who messed up and could have gone but for the alaea
what do you want a left leaning commonist party that will fight to the death or an insurance policy that you hope you will not need. they are effictive because you do not see them like an antivirus
good on ya the alaea

100% correct domo. :ok:

Except for some of the spelling. ;)

[Orville]

good news who got sacked, retrenched in the last 10 years that did not want to go

Mr Potato Head didnt want to go, so all those top jobs that our ALAEA leaders aspire to, are also not guaranteed.

But it won't be long before he is leading us again as the Fed. Sec. feathering his nest for the next sell out.

[Turbo 5B]

That insurance policy analogy is spot on.
The premiums keep on increasing and the benefits keep on being eroded.

[Mr Qantas]

"good on ya the alaea"

the silent majority is alive and well there are alot of contented Qantas employees.

[AN LAME]

...what did I tell you...:ugh:

[qf 1]

hello everbodyyyyy

[qf 1]

looks like the people at the ALAEA are at it again,their about to negotiate down peoples wages and conditions at Avalon due to a threat by forstaff managment that 200 jobs are to go.
It looks like these people at the Alaea know no bounds in their mismangement of peoples conditions.

It was well know that this work was to wrap up once the reconfigs where complete,know they want to neg the remaining workforces conditions down,on what is already **** house conditions,knowing to well there is no more reconfig work left,the remainder of workers are looking at a pay cut.

[Turbo 5B]

Hello.
How do you know if the "silent majority" are contented if they remain silent?

[qf 1]

i beleive they aren't

[Turbo 5B]

And no doubt if QF are successful in driving down conditions at AVV they'll use that as a tool to drive down conditions at QF Heavy Maintenance.
As much as they give me the S--ts, you hace to admire the way they plan their industrial strategies beyond the next six or 12 months.
QF has spent years planning these moves. Little by little, inch by inch they have made advances into the real conditions of the LAMES and AME's employed at QF. The ALAEA exec has either been complicit in these moves or too stupid to see them happening despite beeing warned on numerous occasions by those who aren't fooled by the constant cries of "the sky is falling" "we can't afford to pay you any more".
What we are left with is disharmony and uncertainty about our futures as Australian Aircraft Engineers. The irony is that a lot of this has been brought about by those that were trusted to protect our futures and ultimately will bring about the disintegration of the Association as a union body by reducing it's member numbers to such a low figure as to render it powerless.

[Turbo 5B]

No body can know if the "silent majority" never speaks.
I remember a silent majority on the ALAEA website.
He/she didn't appear to be happy.

[qf 1]

what ever happened to that forum on the ALAEA's website

[Turbo 5B]

It got contaminated by an out of control exec member and had to be closed down because of the embarrassment it caused.
I might note that the exec member in question was never called to account for his actions or behaviour either.

[Woomera]

Merged the threads guys and girls.

The last two posts didn't really need a whole new thread me thinks.;)

Woomera

[Rocket Rob]

Apophis


The new EBA (Enterprise ?for them Bargaining!!! ya get what we say ya get Award not to be confused with reward) will get up if you let the jerks have a secret ballot as they always win at this site, if you have seen the "draft you would be daft" to let it in anywhere.

I notice the AWU have put a letter out and on the back a few good questions but a lot of better ones to be added,but hey no surprise as most think all is OK and this will not "Happen" what do you do to wake the idiots? If you are reading on here do yourself a favour fill in the form and return it to the AWU it may just "HELP"

Anyway complaining on here does no good but sure helps let out a bit of frustration. The good old ALAEA said they would not attend if the AWU was present,guess what? Forstaff was forging ahead and the old "TARTS" turned up.

[qf 1]

what are you talking about Rocket Rob

[Rocket Rob]

qf1

It was to Apophis re the goings on about ALAEA qantas /forstaff and the forstaff EBA is underway at this time!!!!!

[No SAR No Details]

Can anyone on the forum confirm or deny that the AWU are openly seeking to bargin away Qantas workers rights and conditions of employment by lowering the bar in the chase for an EBA in Avalon?

Rumours are rife that this wheeling and dealing is going on as we speak with the AWU actively seeking to undermine their own members conditions in order to secure an agreement at all costs even if it means selling off conditions to do it.
:bored:

[Apophis]

i think you will find its the alaea doing the undermineing of conditions of what we already have at least it looks like that the awu is asking for something and not giveing things away that took years to get .

EBA Negotiations With Forstaff
Aviation Underway

On 20 December 2005, Doug Townley (Forstaff Group Director Aerospace) wrote to all Forstaff Aviation employees outlining the company’s intention to commence negotiations with The Australian Workers’ Union (AWU) over a replacement certified agreement for the Avalon operations.

On 21 December 2005, AWU delegates and officials met with Forstaff management to begin negotiations for the making of a new certified agreement. At that time, the AWU was presented with a claim by Forstaff for changes to the current certified agreement, which was previously negotiated solely with the ALAEA.

The ALAEA had been invited by Forstaff to joint meetings with the AWU as part of this process. Unfortunately, the ALAEA has adopted a wholly unconstructive approach to the negotiation of a new EBA with the AWU included, despite the fact that the AWU has a significant amount of membership at Avalon.

In conjunction with AWU delegates at Avalon, the AWU has prepared a draft list of claims to present to Forstaff. To assist the AWU in the process of formulating a final log of claims, we invite ALL employees to consider the draft claims on the other side of this sheet, and to indicate their support for those claims.

Completed forms can be deposited in sealed boxes located throughout the site, or can be returned to AWU delegates Peter Ryan, Hammer, Rex Simpson and Graeme Sheridan. Please return your completed forms by Friday, 13 January 2005.

If you have any further enquiries with respect to this matter, please contact your AWU delegates or phone AWU National Industrial Officer Ben Swan on 0407 846 283.











Please indicate your endorsement of the following draft claims by circling “Yes”, “No” or “Unsure” and return as per the instructions on the front page.

CLAIMS

1. Annual Wage increases of CPI + 2% Yes No Unsure

2. Qantas Staff Travel entitlements, plus use
of Jetstar and revision of family travel
arrangements Yes No Unsure

3. Retention of Bonus with no link to
Key Performance Indicators Yes No Unsure

4. Increase of Superannuation to 11% Yes No Unsure

5. Ability to take single day annual leave
under any proposed 5 x 2 roster Yes No Unsure

6. Option of Wage Averaging Yes No Unsure

7. Increase the number of days where an
employee does not have to produce a
medical certificate for sick leave to 6 days
per annum Yes No Unsure

8. Contractors only to be engaged when a
maximum of overtime is being done by
full-time employees of Forstaff Yes No Unsure

9. Payment of a Travel Allowance Yes No Unsure

10. Payment of a Forklift Allowance Yes No Unsure

11. All allowances to increase in line with
wage increases under the agreement Yes No Unsure

12. Improvements to Long Service Leave Yes No Unsure

13. Protection of Annual Leave entitlements
for employees moving to a 5 x 2 roster Yes No Unsure

14. Dirty Work/Hazardous Substances
allowance for Utility Workers Yes No Unsure

15. Wider range of salary sacrifice options Yes No Unsure

16. Protecting Quota Levels Yes No Unsure

17. Employee entitlements to be guaranteed
by Qantas Yes No Unsure

[No SAR No Details]

Let's see who delivers what.

One thing is for sure at least the employees at Avalon should keep a close eye on their windscreens with the tin heads around.

Who knows maybe they will succeed in having the place shut down.

Here's hoping.............................

[Turbo 5B]

Does any one know if the log of claims that the AWU is preparing to put forward affect LAMEs as well as AMES?

[Apophis]

god forbid anything would afect the lames.

[U.K. SUBS.]

Why is that Apophis?

[planemad2]

god forbid anything would afect the lames.
You sound like a very bitter person. :(
It seems you have no time for your Employer, or the ALAEA, or even now your fellow Workers. :eek:
What have they all done to you? :confused:

[Apophis]

Some not all of the lames think of nothing but themselves and screw the people that work with them or under there instruction as for the alaea where are they.
They sure are not talking to people on the floor but thats nothing new maybe thats why they have lost many members.
And last but not least Forstaff a company that still can,t get the pays right after all these years let alone be able to handle leave requests in a timely fashion.

[numbskull]

turbo, anything that the AWU accept will not outomatically affect alaea members. However aything that you can obtain will obviously make it easier for the ALAEA to obtain and vice versa.

Be smart in your industrial action. They are a very clever opponent not to be underestimated.

Good luck guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[No SAR No Details]

Poor old Apophis.

Classic three legged dog syndrome by the sounds of it.

Can't sign for sign for anything and about as useless as a dog with three legs.

Licence envy seems to have taken hold of this poor little boy but maybe he likes playing with his bits of tin with his tin headed mates at their thugs gatherigs.

If history serves me the existance of Avalon and the opportunity for you to have a job at all you *********was as a direct result of the forward thinking of organisations such as those you critisise.

Sounds like the tin heads are getting desperate.

Have your kind run out of windscreens to smash or people to threaten tin head or are you just comming to terms with your place in the pecking order?

If you're what the AWU has to offer I'd rather be a Liberal voter.

A get licence and a life and stop watching so much television you ***EDIT

Tut, tut NSND. We have zero tolerance on name calling here matey.You can take a few days off to think about it.

Woomera (Eastern States)

[Turbo 5B]

If I can refer back to my original question, do the AMEs and LAMEs at AVV come under the same agreement?

[Borneo boy]

Gidday all

Just to let you guys know from an ex-QF greaser here overseas we have seen Qantas guys up here inspecting our set-up with view to farming out some 767 C checks. So I think they are playing the bluff quite serious!

[numbskull]

Yeah it would just be management or QA knobs looking for a free holiday. Tell their boss they going to evaluate C checks in all the MRO's in South East Asia, a few days on the beach, a couple of nights in a swish hotel and viola!!!- a report that says they can do c checks 30% cheaper in Borneo. Surprise, Surprise!!!!

Did they really need to send a delegation to find this out?? Did the delegates include any LAMES who might know what they are looking at??? I doubt it.

I'm surprised they didn'y invite any ALAEA executives along with them.

We've already had 767 c checks done in Singapore and New Zealand and aircraft repaints in China. Why not do a few in Borneo as well!!

I'm sure they are all reputable MRO's but at the end of the day no one is going to look after Qantas planes as well as Qantas staff. I can guarantee though that you will always be able to find someone that can do it cheaper.

[Apophis]

No SAR No Details
looks like we have a winner a LAME

[Orville]

I would like to know why when the ALAEA and the company went on their Jolly world discovery trips a few years ago, they made a point of NOT going to Asia to see how they did it. They would go to any airline in the States and come back advocating we use the Worlds Best Practises based on the American model, now all of a sudden Asia is the flavour of the month.

Well I can tell you that the Asian Model doesn't look at reducing the number of ants crawlling over an Aircraft during a transit or Hangar check they actually use approx. double the man hours. The saving is in the pay scales, and from my experience there is a move amongst asian workers to push for better pay and conditions. So wouldn't it be ironical if they went to Asia for cheaper maintenance and it turned around and bit them in the wallet.

Chinese workers working for SASCO are asking for the same pay and conditions as those given to western contract staff. China might be coming out of the dark ages but they catch on fast. So I see the push to asia being only a temporary one and once the high paid LAE has retired and put his feet up the jobs will come back to Aus, at a reduced cost to the company.

The Airlines will be begging for staff to come out of retirement within 5 to 10 years is my prediction, so enjoy your holiday and in the mean time get a day job.

[Turbo 5B]

I don't think that it's the staff wages that are the biggest cost at QF, I think it's more the management's inability to minimise waste.

[AN LAME]

Hit the nail on the head Turbo...

[Turbo 5B]

And to be honest it is completely unfair to ask H/M to prove their competitivness against an o/s MRO when QF itself doesnt know how much it costs to produce an aircraft.
The new Manager came down to the troops and told them that they were undertaking a major effort to "capture" all of the costs of producing an A/C.
Can someone tell me why the hell they didn't already know this?
What has the Snr H/M manager been doing all these years?
Concentrating on bases in AVV and BNE but ignoring the fundementals of the main H/M base.
It's an absolute disgrace.

[Sunfish]

I guess I'm not surprised that QF has a rotten job costing system. That would be a hangover from the old public service days I suppose.

At Ansett we costed to component and job card level and I analysed the whole f&*$ing lot every month, complete with labour hours variances and rate variances - all without a PC!

Budget and actuals were within ten percent every year. I know, because I produced them.

[Bolty McBolt]

On a similar note....
Why has there not been one peep or complaint about the A330 maintenance being done in Zurich.
They were originally sent there due to the Brisbane hangar late completion at the hangar constucters expence.
The hangar is finished and the docking fits A330 and 767, There are appropriate licensed people to certify etc etc.
What is going on !!!!! :mad:

[Sunfish]

Bolty, let me ask you this. If you were an executive, would you like to visit Zurich several times a year or Brisbane airport?????

[Bolty McBolt]

Sunfish
I wouldn't mind checking the snow fields near Zurich and Brisbane is the most forgetable city in Aus..hmmmm
I think Zurich wins

[Turbo 5B]

Another thing i'd like to see is a managers job tied to his performance ie if the section closes down .... he goes too. Instead of going sideways into a cushy position where he can stuff the lives of another 1000 staff.

[domo]

Im with you turbo if a manager sends a section down the river the whole magement team should go. did they fail to lead or were they sent to do a job?(hachet) .Qantas always had a problem with hidden agendas

[BHMvictim]

Has anyone wondered how some of the people at avalon with non English speaking backgrounds who can hardly speak English now let alone write it are completing the job cards they are signing for let alone reading the M.M.understanding it and working to it.

You tell us Apophis... you work there!

[Apophis]

You tell us Apophis... you work there!
well something dodgy is going on is it not if you can barely speak English one has to wonder how you could read the M.M or job card instructions let alone understand them the best examples of this I see are jobs started at step 6 on a job card with the first 5 steps just skipped completely it does not seem to matter if a part had to be machined drilled painted elec work or composite work done prior to installation they just go to step 6 and installed it regardless.
then someone has to come along remove it get the prior work done and reinstall it.
How QF gets away this gets me.

[BHMvictim]

I did spend some time in Avalon, and I agree, there are several persons working there whos ability to comprehend job cards/MM references would be questionable. To a lesser extent, same goes for a few I worked with in Sydney.

Is this a sign of things to come??

Maybe maintenance will stay in Australia!
After all, howard has been bringing in skilled migrants for quite some time. Their English too would be questionable! They are all biding their time as cleaners and taxi drivers. Once the IR reforms begin, they can all step into our jobs at a lower rate of pay! Thanks Howard.

[hawks05]

Can anyone on the forum confirm or deny that the AWU are openly seeking to bargin away Qantas workers rights and conditions of employment by lowering the bar in the chase for an EBA in Avalon?

Rumours are rife that this wheeling and dealing is going on as we speak with the AWU actively seeking to undermine their own members conditions in order to secure an agreement at all costs even if it means selling off conditions to do it.
:bored:
I can tell you the AWU will NOT trade away your rights or wages, we will be back to everyone on site and they will be telling us what they want and dont want,:ok: not like the ALAEA they tell everyone what they want after they have already made the deal with Qantas and Forstaff.

[Turbo 5B]

i have dealt with both unions and he has a point.

[qf 1]

just like the last Qantas EBA,they only showed their faces when the deal was done,not once did they consult with the workforce,then they went around to all the ports telling everone how happy H.M was with the deal(re the O/T bank),then when they did show their faces at HM they where crucified.
I suppose this is why managment are now trying to wipe out the LAME's within Qantas because they know that the membership is about to wipe out these turds in the ALAEA exec,in which their places will be filled by people who actually care about the people they represent and the industry at large,not a bunch of self serving fools

[Apophis]

now bs of the AWU is going to run for the labour party pre selection how intrested is he going to be in any of this.

[hawks05]

now bs of the AWU is going to run for the labour party pre selection how intrested is he going to be in any of this.

I can tell you that BS is with the union till at least the end of 2007, anyway at the end of the day it is up to us to sort this out. Make the ALAEA talk with the AWU. The unions are only as strong as its members,so turn up to the meeting at tell the ALAEA what you want or leave, what good are they to you if they dont listen. I can tell you the AWU will always listen to its members, as they are the AWU.