Logging of augmented long haul hours. How does your company do it?

[Scooby Doo]

Title says it all really. If you fly long haul and have additional flight crew augmenting the flight, how do you log the hours?

My airline, Emirates, has the following scheme:

Flight augmented by one First Officer then Captain and operating FO log all the hours, augmenting FO logs only stick time.

Flight augmented by one Captain, then same applies as above.

Flight augmented by another complete crew, then operating crew log all the time, augmenting crew log stick time.

In other words, as you are only logging stick time, then a 14 hour sector becomes only 6-7 hours in your logbook and we do have months where the 'standard' 100 hours in 28 days rule is exceeded, resulting in fatigue. :(

Just interested in how other companies do it.

[Airbubba]

I understand you are now only paid for the "logged" time, is this correct? EK also uses the quaint system where a newly upgraded captain starts at first year captain's pay no matter how long he's been with the company. You guys need to hire some more Australians to get a proper union going <g>...

Fortunately, even the failing U.S. carriers pay for the entire flight time for all required crewmembers. And, a twelve year FO becomes a twelve year captain for pay purposes when he she or it upgrades.

As for logging time, we Americans are like the Ozzies, we have been known to log captain time as a typed copilot if we feel creative to enhance our marketability.

[Scooby Doo]

You are nearly right about the pay. We have a continuous scale where, when you start you are in year 1 and Captains start at year 13. When you get promoted, you jump ten years in scale, and as promtions are running at 3 years, you'll leave year 3 and jump up to year 13. A 4 year FO will jump up to year 14 etc.

The company pay us a salary up to about 78 hours a month, but anything over is paid at around US$110 an hour for Captains, US$75 for FOs. Depending on which fleet you're will dictate the overtime you get. The A340 is doing a lot of flying at the moment, but we are paid for the complete scheduled block time. But the money is irrelevant when you are too tired to spend it!

[Airbubba]

>>The company pay us a salary up to about 78 hours a month, but anything over is paid at around US$110 an hour for Captains, US$75 for FOs.<<

Sadly, some of the failing U.S. carriers are trying to cut widebody pay down to that level...

Here's bankrupt Delta's pay scale after the latest pay cuts:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/delta-200502248.htm

The hours paid are based on credit hours which are usually significantly more than the flight hours since they include any trip rig, duty rig and other "work rules" related hours. Delta still has some of this stuff left. Also, most U.S. airlines still pay full flight time for deadheading which can be significant in augmented international long haul.

Classically you could always hope to recover from wage givebacks but once the work rules were gone, you'd never see them again...

[145qrh]

Gee Scoob,

You are almost right, the only crew member to log all the time is operating Captain, every one else, wether it be one captain, 2 captain, 1 f/o or 2/fo or any combination log time in seat....

And we do get paid for total block time.

Your 900hr annual limit ( target ) is also total block time.

[Thridle Op Des]

Hi Scooby,

Just to clarify, while augment crew log only stick time the Flight Time limits for both the 28 Day and Annual periods is based on BLOCK Time. This is in accordance with CAP371.

Regards

[Scooby Doo]

Your 900hr annual limit ( target ) is also total block time.


Are you absolutely sure....??? If so, then, whoops!

[fatbus]

yes 900 block hrs is what applies to FDP/FTL, don't mix it up with credit. when you do an ULH you are getting full credit and full block does not matter what goes in the log book

[Thridle Op Des]

Ah - that's true to a point, as even though the Factoring has been binned, they are still using any factoring they got away with prior to April (don't ask me which date - though I think the end) for the annual calculation, so there will be people around EK with 940 hours, for example but in theory still legal. Once April XX 2006 turns up, then (again) theoretically all the factoring should have been flushed from the system.

It is interesting that once the 900 hour limit is reached (including the factoring bit) it appears that instead of using the calandar month rule established in CAP371, they are using the pilot on a day-by-day basis as long as he is under 900 hours for the trip.

[Fish]

Thridle Op Des, I don't know how they can do that:

21 ABSOLUTE LIMITS ON FLYING HOURS

21.1 A person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all previous flight times:

(a) during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 hours; or

(b) during the period of 12 months, expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 hours.


Please tell me which manager does not have English as a first language and is implementing a rolling 365 day 900 hour limit? Don't forget also that CAP371 is merely a set of reccomendations, it is not law.

The law is the company FTL scheme, approved by the relevant authority, and the FOM communicates the scheme to us. Anyone can clearly see that the above, taken directly from the FOM, shows that if you have exceeded 900 hours, then you cannot fly for the following month.

[Thridle Op Des]

Hi Fish, yes I entirely agree and that was the impetus behind the comment, I would emphasise that this is what I have HEARD is the case, and sadly I have strong suspicions that it is fact given the parlous state of crew to aircraft ratios in EK.

Regards