CAA Rumour

[PEPSIPILOT]

I heard that the CAA will change the COM Exam rules. you will not have to worry about passing 3 subjects or passing all 8 subjects in 5 sittings, Dont know if its true or not but if it is more accidents are going to occur in South African Airspace.

[MicroFlyer]

I'm sure there are lots of guys that will agree with me on this: The CPL exams have absolutely nothing to do with how well someone flies. I mean, how much of the theory does one actually apply to actual flying?

Just a thought. :rolleyes:

[organ donor]

I somehow doubt it will have that effect.. Europe scrapped partial passes years ago, SA just going more in line with JAR if the rumour is true.

[B Sousa]

Lets see..Partial passing of Exams, Gold Wings overnight, maybe next it should be one out of three checkrides have to be successful.....
Standards, boys and girls......

.CPL exams have absolutely nothing to do with how well someone flies. I mean, how much of the theory does one actually apply to actual flying? Microflyer, they may not be the indicator of how good one is as a Pilot, but they at least eliminate those that we are pretty certain wont be good. Microflyers, quite frankly, dot the hillsides more than the norm and Im sure some of that has to do with their lack of knowledge..

[MicroFlyer]

Ok, I'm confused B Sousa - how did you get to comparing the CPL exams with Microlight Pilots? Let's compare apples with apples. No point in attempting to justify your argument by disparaging what I said.

The original post read as follows: "...more accidents are going to occur in South African Airspace." as a result of removing the partial passes rule.

I disagree with the statement.

I thought someone's flying ability is tested by a practical flight test? Which truly reflects a person's ability to pilot an aircraft? Exams or a Practical Flight Test? I believe the latter.

Let's be realistic.

[Captain Pheremone]

Hi Guys - greetings from Nigeria(%$@@#%%$)

Bert....nobody said anything about partial exams, as you well know our system here is about 30 times more difficult to pass than the FAA com albeit 32 times more antiquated. I mean "kak" you still gotta learn plotting, NDB's and heaps other useless info that I have never once used in flying. Its a lot of bull**** but a lot more work goes into it than buying a book with the questions and answers in it.....but its ok I know you are depressive!!!!!!!

Pepsi....whether you pass one at a time or all together...so what??? you pass you pass. You gotta do the same amount of work at the end of the day. Seeing your very next post was about jobs as you are about to get you comm, I detect a tinge of sour grapes about having had to pass 3 at a time.

Don't start off like that. You passed well done...now stick it out get a job and i wish you luck doing it.....and many hours safe flying.

PS. VOKDUBE

[B Sousa]

Somehow I knew I would get a rise out of you.. Maybe no exams and if someone is versed in the working of a 747-400 a practical would do. He/She can learn the Rules/Procedures etc on the way to Europe with the PAX in the back...
Lowering the standards will not doubt be reflected in the Accident/Incident statistics.
One may be able to Rotax through the sky in remote areas unconciously, but when one encounters things such as Airspace, Rules, other Aircraft etc, it certainly does require some knowledge. Flying is more than getting up and down without breaking to many parts.
I do agree that its foolish to have to pass all exams at one time. As you say a pass is a pass. An example is the Air Law, once passed it is largely forgotten. Most that I know including myself would have to bone up to pass it again.... Maybe it should be a requirement every couple years to keep updated.

our system here is about 30 times more difficult to pass than the FAA com albeit 32 times more antiquated. I mean "kak" you still gotta learn plotting, NDB's and heaps other useless info that I have never once used in flying.
Could not agree more....
Capt P Now I have to be depressive......?? I dont admit to being the brightest candle on the cake and I think I did miss a bit of micro flyers point. Got it now with your eloquant help....
By the way where do you buy Gold Wings??

[BAKELA]

Bert,By the way where do you buy Gold Wings??
You can't buy them. Read this in political lingo. You have to be in the right Mbeki, be a bit Shaiky, Zelda seen (Madiba's spokes ma'am), Agsies Bangat (like in Aziz Pahad), being a bit of a Whingie biekie (like in Winnie M the way she was with Arnie S :E ), MOre Shaik here and there, take a small Chikane left and NOT right (top cover with the help of a Reverend) and you've got it. Golden wings AND the commission delivered to your doorstep. And either way, the SA taxpayer goes into another fit of puking. Double pay with SAA and the SAAF? SAA = Speedy Affirmative Action. SAAF = Soon Another Aviation Fatility? :zzz:

[Majutes]

Back to the original topic. Exams are not realy relative but do act as a filter. If you want to maintain standards then maybe pay a bit more attention to practical flight tests. These are not always up to the standard they should be (this of course differs from instructor to destructor). As far as the FAA gose its all well and fine saying there written tests are easy to study for but how about that flight test??????
P.S. use nugget and you too could get "gold wings"

[birdlady]

IF the rumour is true, in one way its a good thing and in another its bad.

I beleive, and Im sure some of you would agree with me, that by eliminating the 3 pass rule a pupil would be able to retain the information for longer. The current system seems to be based purely on who can learn the most info in the shortest possible time. Learn not retain being the key word here. Break it up into smaller blocks and the student would be able to retain the info for longer.

On the other hand, it does definately weed out the incapable. Lets face it most of the info we learn for our exams we never use again but it does show that the pupil has some form of intelligence and ability to learn and process large quantities of info certainly skills we need for flying.

My 2 c worth :ok: :ok:

[warloc67]

This rumour is actually true, I believe Chief Treveor signed it before he left, but it has not yet been implimented (except for certain CAA emplyees.:ugh: )

In my opinion it is a good thing for a number of reasons, I peronally know of quite a number of CPL's that have passed all the subjects on more than one occasion but did not carry any credits because of the partial pass system. Furthermore, in the current system the candidates short term memory is being tested, not neccesarily his/her knowledge.

If the new system is implimented, the candidate can now fully internalise the knowledge and thus actually understand the theory.

[MysticFlyer]

Pepsipilot, putting your first statement together is like saying that dubious nosipicking in church as a choirboy, could land you golden wings on a prayer!

BL, see you're back after a silence, have you learned to memorise and to apply the relationship between the coefficient of lift and the coeeficient of drag? You will also be right if you thought that density has to do with both.

Some flight schools, also supply questions and answers, and from what I've heard, a combination of three would give you startling answers, some even with a guide of the correct answers and with the corrrect answers to answer!

But then I also recall leaked papers incident....anyway it appears to be becoming easier, soon perhaps a group mark could be introduced, Curriculum Comm Pilot 2006, perhaps?

The soup thickens to become a gravy! Pap's up!

MF:ok:

[Gunship]

I see CAACHIEF is online ... hopefully sir, you can give us better light on the subject ?

[CAACHIEF]

The more things change the more they stay the same

Is it not amazing how a sector such as ours, the technologically most advanced in many respects remain so conservative. Well if I did, surely everyone else who wants to fly should do it also……

Pedagogy has long since moved pass the multiple choice, without a syllabus, pass 3 or go to jail crap we have to do for a CPL.

As Birdlady and others acknowledge, most of the information we stuff ourselves for the exams are lost on us when we go back to flying. Much of it irrelevant to daily flying, the rest presented in a dry and obtuse fashion with little emphasis on application to potential real life situations. No wonder everyone crams, cribs, etc. in order to get through.

And oh, those stolen papers, Well the 2000 saga did make for juicy headlines, even if then alleged theft took place in the Department of Transport before the CAA was established in 1988. That investigation revealed some interesting things about South Africa’s exam system and I would not be surprised if there are a number of nervous (by now quite established) pilots whose nerves do not jangle a bit when it comes to investigating “exam leaks” from the old DCA … but that is another story. And yes South Africa is not particularly unique in that regard, ask the UK CAA.

Whenever you have this absurd system of a limited number of “secret” questions, there will be an incentive to bust the system, even if it means students memorizing their questions and feeding it back to their flight school who then compiles it into a practice exam which you then pay for.

The way to go is to shift our emphasis to a STANDARD FLIGHT TESTS as (I hate to say this) the Americans do and concentrate of the flying skills.

The Knowledge skills are equally necessary, but should at CPL level be more related to practical application and can easy be reduced to thousands of questions (all of which you are unlikely to remember pat off) and then students can practice their knowledge skills and are unlikely and unable to get to “The” paper they will actually take during their exams.

As for passing three at one sitting – absolutely no pedagogical basis for this practice. Simply encourages cramming. The rumoured change is but a small step in the right direction.

Does it weed out those who are unwilling to work hard? Me thinks not. Most pilots do not claim to be the Einsteins of the world. In fact, experience has revealed that those with the highest aptitudes for doing well at flying are seldom at the top of the class academically. So this whole exercise is a test of skills and abilities not critical to flying safely.

My 2c worth. Now you can ask what did you do during the war?
:E

[Gunship]

You see - just ASK and the Chief will provide. :ok:

:E

[CAACHIEF]

Anytime Anywhere ... if you ask nicely.

But then Alas I do not affect your lives so directly anymore.

Now I spend my time sorting others problems with the authorities.

[Gunship]

Well done Chief - keep up the good work.

Let us all have the vision for SAFE SKIES over SA ! :ok:

PS: Let's see you more here please - a lot of catch up to do ;)

Cheers

Gunss

(Keeping the skies safe over North and West Africa) ... uhmm trying :E

[B Sousa]

If the CAA Chief is in fact the CAA Chief, heres hoping he is watching the Huey Saga while at a distance. The outcome is extremely important to SA Aviation. No Response required.

[Spetsnaz]

There was also a rumour at one time that plotting would be removed from the syllabus. Anyone know if that actually happened?? Progress is slow (like the CAA staff at this time of year;-)) in these parts but at least it happens!

[B200Drvr]

I have it on good authority that the comm. exam system will not be changed in the near future.
What will be changed however is the ability of DE,s to sign pilots out on aircraft, especially those in excess of 5700kg's with an hour(or part thereof) flight test and a quickie ground school.
I believe as of March, only certain establishments will be authorised to issue types on certain aircraft, and this will only be done after a full conversion and flight check.
People knock the FAA system, but to fly a 1900 you need to do 30 sim hours and a 5 day ground school. I know people first hand who have a P2 rating with less than an hour flight time on type.
:ooh:
I agree with less empasis on written exams and a much more stringent, and standardised flight test including an oral exam of an hour or two to see what the candidate really knows.

[maxrated]

Spetnaz
I sincereley hope that there is no intention of dropping plotting as a com/atp subject.
In the past few years I have noticed a marked decrease in basic navigational skills along with situational awarness in alot of newbie pilots coming through the system, most of who's most advanced navigational skills seem to be the depressing of the "direct go to" button on a Garmin 100.

During 4 years of contract flying I averaged about 2 inflight GPS failures per year, on all occasions we reverted to good old plotting skills to complete the day's flying.
Plotting as a subject will at least ensure that the chaps at the sharp end of the aerie will be able to find home in the event of GPS going on the blink.



B200drvr

I have also heard that NAC is pushing CAA to only allow certain institutions ( namely themselves) to do type rating / conversions / renewals onto Be19 aircraft, after all as the only company in the republic to own a simulator for this type of aircraft, they have an extremely vested financial interest in achieving this.

One simply cant have the "RRR's" of the world doing it faster and cheaper than them and screwing up this potentially lucrative Beech 1900 training market.
Only snag in this is that another Lanseria operator has a full motion BE20/be19 simulator on order which would probably throw a bit of a spanner in the worx for NAC's cunning plan.



;)

[B200Drvr]

Maxrated,
I agree that might put a spanner in the works for NAC, however I do believe that SACAA needs to do something because it is getting a bit out of control with guys flying everything above 12500 without a proper type rating.

[PEPSIPILOT]

i think that if they will cancel the fact that you have to pass 3 exams in one sitting than there will be more accidents in out airspace and i think its rubbish to writing Plotting and NAV GEN you will never use it but anyways i only have 3 exams on my hands and still have 4 sittings left.

[EagleWings]

Hey let's not start scraping the subjects that are required for a CPL/ATP. I agree that some of the content is a bit dated and maybe the CAA should look at updating the subjects a bit. I agree fully with whoever it was that said DON'T scrap nav and plotting. Yes lots of us, and note I say us, don't practice proper navigation like we should, and it is important for when the good old Garmin goes belly up!


200 Drvr
I agree with you that there should be a crack down on Micky Mouse ratings!

my 1c worth
Safe flying!
EW

[zs-fly]

If you want the licence you have to work for it. Nothing is for free!!!!!:ok:

[jab]

This as going to come as a shocker. I was impressed by CAA!:eek:
I did my renewal in December and it cost me half of what it did the previous year and it took half the time to process it! I could not believe my good fortune and I believe there is finally some progress being made in making it easier to fly, rather than the old attitude of the "Committee Against Aviation".
There was a lot of valid whining in the past few years about the spiralling fees killing general / commercial aviation and I hope my experience with CAA is reflective of a change in attitude. I may be off the mark as I have been out of SA for the last few years but CAA sometimes deserves a bit of credit.
As for the FAA licence, I like their system. I never studied with a school to do the theory and it was definitely easier to do one examination, than the whole pile expected by SA CAA and the JAR, but it still involved a lot of studying and I dont believe its possible to pass all subjects by just studying the questions and answers. Some, yes, but not all.
The FAA flight test was very thorough and I found the standards to be consistent and fair. The system is designed to root out those who study the questions and answers only, one cannot fool a testing officer during a 3 hour oral examination of all aspects of the aircraft you are flying. I think that aspect of the test should be incorporated more consistently in the SA system. There are no shortcuts in the FAA flight test either but, once again, everything is fair.
The JAR/JAA system sucks! There is an elitist attitude without much to back it up. There is no credit for prior theoretical knowledge, no matter your level of experience, you WILL write all 14 examinations at an exhorbitant cost. The inconsistency is that some European countries pilots are looked down upon by other EU countries, due to lower standards, but only have to fill in a form at the local CAA to be issued a JAA licence. Appears to be a money making racket and I hope that it will improve when the JAA system changes next year, or later this year. I have found SA standards to be on a par with, and often better, than examples I have seen in the EU.
Safe flying, all is not greener on the other side of the fence. Jab

[dr27]

I agree with emphasis on flying skills rather then academic requirements.

Whether I know that I fly an ILS in the yellow or blue sector isn't going to save my *ss.

Being able to keep the needles crossed might (for those who can still remember the old localizer/gllide scope indicators)

[B200Drvr]

Jab,
Well said:ok:

[Woof etc]

The big Emphasis on the 'Academic' side of flying is in my opinion, a waste of time and does not contribute to flight safety - setting high standards for flight testing certainly does. There is no evidence to suggest that the European safety record is any better than that in America, even though the Europeans apply MUCH more emphasis to the theory.

Don't know about you, but I didn't study camber angles, internal combustion engine theory and electronic engine management systems when I learnt to drive. Much as I don't need to know how to program in DOS and how microproccesors work in order to make this post. The regulators have failed to adapt to the changes that have occurred in todays fly by numbers, computer does the thinking airline environment.

If the authorities insist on academic performance as a filter, at least let the poor buggers learn something useful. Hard and soft magnetic iron components and how to swing a magnetic compass does not fall into this category in my opinion - the guys in the greasy overhauls are meant to know about this stuff.

Agree fully on the dodgy type ratings - there are too many pilots flying around in serious kit they don't know jack about.

[Heli_Sticktime]

So What's the answer to the original question, anyone able to shed any light?

PEPSIPILOT - Asked the question
WARLOC67 - Said he had also heard the rumour
CAACHIEF - As he would ;) neither confirmed or denied it......
B200DRVR - Says it's not true

And since then it's gone in a different direction.

Reason I'd like to know is that I have slogged it to pass the first 3 and now sit with 4 attempts to pass the rest. My problem is that I run my own business and employ number of people of whom I have to look after, as well as my client base. My reason for getting the com is to a)further my knowledge (after what I've heard from most people never to be used again) and b)I would like to do charters on weekend and instruvtion as I enjoy it, and who knows maybe one day a career change. But....at the moment to cram all that info into your head and then sit through the CAA "guess the right answer to our english exam questions and tests of wit" in 4 - 5 attempts!!! I don't know, seems FAA may be the way to go.

But now I see I'm also losing focus....so does anyone have an answer:bored:

[B Sousa]

But....at the moment to cram all that info into your head and then sit through the CAA "guess the right answer to our english exam questions and tests of wit" in 4 - 5 attempts!!! I don't know, seems FAA may be the way to go.

Your the only one with the answer and if you plan on your flying Career/Hobby to be solely in South Africa your going to have to hunker down and accomplish the project. FAA license would just be a problem there.
Sometimes I see a situation where if one did a couple things better it would work. I recently watched a friend of mine who has been flying for many years, go through the hoops for his Commercial helicopter rating. It was not pleasant and nor was he until the last exam was passed.
As a working person its difficult at best. Try some things differently, get into some groups who are all studying the same subject. Get notes and advice from some who have recently done the exams. Some schools have "study Guides" It can be done by phone in person (not at a pub) or on the internet. Others may help you through a brain fart and likewise. Also when your on a subject dont put it away for a week or so. Thats called one foot forward, two feet back. You will have to re study a lot of material. Make all your spare time go into the subject until your ready to go to CAA and play multiple guess.
Above all keep moving forward, every exam you pass will give you more encouragement.........
As I always say I liked the Air Law exam so much, I did it twice........

[Heli_Sticktime]

Thanks Bert, I'm sure I'll keep at it....and I know what you mean about being unpleasant during the period before exams, just ask my wife:eek:

Anyone going to take a fly at the rumour... to confirm or deny the 3 in one go and all in 5 attempts saga?

[Malagant]

The exams is mostly about filling the CAA coffers and they not prepared to change if it means revenue lost..:eek: Have had guys come and get on 1900D right seat and he is qualified ATP but most of time was instructing and he is way behind.. on EFIS etc, so how does passing the ATP subjects help him? MET, ATG, Flight planning is subjets that is used everyday, the rest is BOLLOCKS.. the moment U walk out of that exam room U have forgotten what U have just written....:ok: If they changed the system that makes it easier to get your credits without changing the papers it will help alot of guys on contract trying to get the ATP subjects...:)

[birdlady]

Agree with all!!!!!! Just did 4 exams this week and passed 3. Most of what I've learnt I've already pretty much forgotten. You cram and you cram and your brain eventually says enough is enough and your chances of retaining that info is slim - something to do with working and semantic memory (I did remeber something from HP). I agree Met, Nav and ATG are very important subjects but the rest is pretty much b*llocks. ;) ;) ;)

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Well done, BL.:ok:

Whining won't change things, folks. Best you dive in and get the job done and get that CPL. You're not the first who's done it in this manner and you won't be the last but it's still a pretty big achievement. As mentioned earlier, it's the volume of information, rather than the difficulty that catches people. Look around you at some of the folks currently holding a CPL. If they can do it, so can you....:ok:

Just keep banging your head against that wall. Eventually it'll crumble.:ok:


Banging your head on a wall is also good practice for finding a job....:(

[RSQ]

What I seem to glean from reading these replies is that the CAA exams are outmoded, and having just written the FAA ATP in December, as well as holding a local licence, allow me to comment from the side of experience - with the exception of law, some met, and flight ops and procedures, the CAA model is outdated and so much bull****.
I bought the King ATP course and spent a full week closeted in a hotel room, answered a thousand questions by looking at the answers and then working them back to see how the answers were reached. Believe me, the 1,000 questions were a damn sight more oriented towards real life flight operations than our hogwash is. From the level of 20 odd years in aviation, 95% of what is in our exams is totally useless. However, our flight tests are also a joke. The FAA DE grills you orally for at least 3 hours on the aircraft you want to fly, then you demonstrate 3 stalls in different configurations, three approaches at least one of which includes a missed and one a single engine. Steep turns etc all done to a pre-agreed set of standards, some of which can be re-done immediately, some requiring a retest. At least you know where you stand !
So - the upshot is - our exams are not a filter of a certain standard, our flight tests are silly, and our standards overall are lower than those in the US. I suggest a website with all the questions collected for plotting, radio aids, and nav. Publish the wole damn lot until the CAA pulls fingers from collective nether regions and updates their system !

[Old Bullet]

I too have been aviating more than 25 years, qualified pilot/navigator (yes that once existed in the SAAF) and I've had an FAA ATP for more than 10 years. I note comments above lauding the virtues of Plotting. Pray tell me, which airline co-pilot carries plotting dividers and plotting charts in his pilot bag just in case his aircraft's nav system packs up and he has to start griffling furiously to find out where they are??

I do however know of many co-pilots who stare dazedly at a wx radar screen picture and or GPS display, not knowing WTH its telling them. Plotting helps u diddly squat if you're in IFR with no landmarks.:uhoh:

Yes, lets introduce advanced map reading on 1 000 000 charts/maps, that can be useful in a hurry, not departure etc (or like in instruments, latitude rider nuts and aircraft magnetism!!)

As for the way we Saffricans put the FAA ATP down all the time, it was ok to get astronauts time in airlines, wasn't it, before they stepped onto the moon :eek: ????

The FAA ATP test was the toughest flight test, outside of the SAAF, that I had ever come across.

And BTW, can someone explain to me how, in any nation, can a multiple choice exam which has been failed, be re-marked (for a fee) and then suddenly it is passed??????????????:*

Can someone explain to me how moderators of ATP subjects can lecture you and show you faulty questions that will come up in the exam, telling you to tick the wrong answer so that you can score the mark, because CAA are too lazy to correct the database???? This is obviously why re-marking is allowed???:*

And lastly, how about some advanced airlaw instead for all aspirant captains/ATPs. So many last saw an airlaw book at their comm lectures or dont know where to find what in the CATS/CARS, but they are put in charge of an aircraft?:ok:

Both Comm and ATP syllabi need a serious revamp in terms of relevance.

Cheers
OB

[Heli_Sticktime]

Well said RSQ, I also bought the King course, mine was the standard comm with the helicopter add-on and I must agree, our stuff is REALLY old compared to theirs, sorry what was the amplitude of that KHz... whatever:yuk: Will be sure to remember it next time I'm on 124.8 and trying to triangulate the Cos of....YAWN....Sin.....zzzzz zzzzz

[Heli_Sticktime]

Anyone hear anymore news on the 5 sittings saga