Ryanair looks at Latvian licence as a way of cutting costs [Archive]

Flying Mech

17th Dec 2005, 11:43

And so FR's race to the bottom continues. altough it is probably true that MOL can lever a cheap deal out of the Latvian CAA to register his approx 130 a/c's & get an AOC from them this is not the full story. The more ties that are severed with Ireland the harder it is for irish/european employees to enforce irish laws and T&C on the company. So in approx 18 months or so MOL will be able to fire all his "Expensive" employees & replace them with Eastern Europeans who are ready willing and able to work for 50% less (Pilots & CC). This will be MOL's final big "Cost Reduction" strategy before he leaves FR in 2 years time with a Healthy Bonus for more Cost cutting. The next step after reregistring the A/C's & AOC is probably to move the Ryanair HQ to Lichenstein which is a very Tax freindly state.

Carmoisine

17th Dec 2005, 11:56

Ryanair looks at Latvian licence in bid to cut costs

Tom McEnaney

RYANAIR is considering transferring its aviation certificate from Ireland to Latvia in a move which experts say could reduce the ability of the company's Irish pilots and cabin crew to claim the protection of Irish employment law.

Ryanair's chief executive, Michael O'Leary, has confirmed that the airline is considering moving its licence, known as an Air Operator's Certificate (AOC); but said this would be a simple cost-reduction measure and would not impinge on the employment rights of its Irish staff.

"We are not looking at a Latvian AOC from that point of view. Employment legislation in Ireland is aimed at multinationals and there's no way we can just scuttle off to Latvia to undermine it," he said.

"If that were possible, I'm fairly sure that everyone (multinational) would be doing it."

According to Mr O'Leary, Ryanair is considering taking advantage of the fact that the Latvian authorities apply lower certification charges than those in Ireland.

Expert

"I don't think that having a Latvian AOC would affect the rights of a single pilot based here," Mr O'Leary said.

Jim Trueick, a partner at the law firm O'Donnell Sweeney and one of the foremost experts in Irish employment law, disagreed.

He said: "The more Ryanair severs its connection to Ireland the easier it is to sustain an argument that the Irish courts do not have jurisdiction in matters of employment law. The key issue here is unfair dismissal legislation, but a slew of employment law follows on from that. Under the Unfair Dismissals Act, Irish citizens who do not normally perform their duties in the State are not covered."

Mr O'Leary dismissed Mr Trueick's opinion as "rubbish" and said that Irish pilots and cabin crew would continue to enjoy the protection of Irish employment legislation partly because they would continue to be resident in Ireland.

This argument was challenged by Mr Trueick. He said: "Somebody flying an aircraft that only lands and takes off from here occasionally is not necessarily covered (by employment legislation), even if they live here."

He added that if Ryanair were to move its AOC to Latvia it could then arrange its affairs in such as way as to ensure its Irish pilots and cabin crew were not covered under Irish legislation.

Headquarters

Mr O'Leary said he had no intention of making any changes which would diminish the rights of Irish pilots and cabin crew. "We will continue to have our headquarters here," he said. "The pilots will continue to be based here. They will continue to pay tax here and they will continued to be covered by Irish law."

Ryanair has had a tumultuous relationship with its Irish pilots.

Last month, it secured a Supreme Court injunction to prevent the Labour Court investigating complaints by a number of Ryanair's Irish pilots pending the outcome of an appeal by the airline to a recent High Court finding.

Ryanair is challenging a High Court finding that the Labour Court is correct in determining that a trade dispute exists at the airline under the Industrial Relations Act, 2001. It also determined Ryanair does not bargain collectively with staff and does not have an internal dispute resolution procedure.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1529195&issue_id=13436

Faire d'income

17th Dec 2005, 12:24

Tom McEnaney regularly writes Ryainair spin.

Earlier this year he announced a major expansion by FR at Dublin airport. After many paragraphs of free advertising for FR the last few lines pointed out that the expansion involved no new aircraft, merely the replacement of 200s with 800s and thus more seats.

He spends most of his time bashing the staff of any Irish airline and reproducing the management spin verbatum.

Somebody flying an aircraft that only lands and takes off from here occasionally is not necessarily covered (by employment legislation), even if they live here."

While this is not totally incorrect it doesn't exactly sound like the opinion of an expert whose is even aware of the relevant Aviation Laws. They determine whether local employment laws apply or not.

McEnaney probably found him in the FR staffroom. :rolleyes:

Piltdown Man

17th Dec 2005, 13:44

I hope he does. Then he get out of Europe. And stay out. I don't believe that Latvia has 5th Freedom rights over all of Europe. Nice move.

the grim repa

17th Dec 2005, 14:11

its all horse**** and publicity pandering on the back of the irish ferries fiasco in ireland recently.an attempt to brow beat the iaa into giving in on the 1100 hours annual limit,once the gob****e pilots have accepted 5 on 4 off.
come on mick put your money where your mouth is and piss off to latvia for good.i think not!

spanishflea

17th Dec 2005, 14:13

Latvia is a full member of the EU, any Latvian carrier can fly where they like within the EU unrestricted.

LTNman

17th Dec 2005, 15:15

Quote from MOL http://www.sbpost.ie/breakingnews/breaking_story.asp?j=136598120&p=y365987xx&n=136598729

"Any such initiative if implemented would have no impact whatsoever on either our aircraft or our highly paid employees who are based here in Ireland"

ShortfinalFred

17th Dec 2005, 16:02

If MoiKe O L@airy is denying it, that'll mean its more than likely actually true!

Not long now before the mighty Ry@nairski employs Russian pilots, paid in credits for use at the company store no doubt, with a "generous cash incentive", (dependent on base, of course), of a couple of dollars per sector. Get the planes maintained in Ulanbator too - why not - I doubt the man and his dog at the IAA are too worried who crews the planes, and even less who maintains them.

How long too before the IAA cave-in and allow 1100 hours per year as a "trial", soon to be validated and advanced to say, 1250, (has a nice ring to it, 'twelve fifty' does)?

Never ceases to call his employees "highly paid" though - why does that seem so unlikely, as all the prune threads will testify?

Moike O L@airy - possibly the most dangerous man in aviation today.

Dockjock

17th Dec 2005, 18:23

For an international perspective, in Canada annual FTL is 1200 hrs. Not saying its right, just saying it already exists and has for a long, long time.

100 hrs/mo has a nice ring to it. I suspect most european pilots think not.

Banzai Eagle

17th Dec 2005, 19:12

The Grim Repa. If the Pilots work 5 on 4 off would they be able to achieve 1100 hrs per year?.
I guess Latvia has no FTL as such so RYR would be able to right their own rules. However EU Sub part Q might put a dampener on it???

DFC

17th Dec 2005, 19:38

once the gob****e pilots have accepted 5 on 4 off

The ATCOs at the UK ACCs work 6 on 4 off including two night shifts working harder and for less money than the most junior Ryanair Captain. They must be total gob****es! :D

Regards,

DFC

Buster the Bear

17th Dec 2005, 20:21

Ryanair denies Latvia transfer claims
Ryanair is denying reports that it plans to re-register its company in Latvia in a bid to cut operation costs.

Chief executive, Michael O`Leary says there is no truth in claims that the company was considering transferring its aviation certificate from Ireland to Latvia.

He is admitting, however, that Ryanair is holding dicussions with a number of EU aviation authorities with a view to obtaining lower aircraft leasing costs than the company currently pays for in Ireland.

Politicians express fear over Ryanair rumours

Opposition politicians have been reacting with surprise to reports that no-frills airline Ryanair may be attempting to re-register in Latvia.

The company’s chief executive, Michael O’Leary, has denied the rumours but has admitted that discussions are ongoing with a number of aviation authorities in the EU in an effort to lower aircraft leasing costs.

Fine Gael’s transport spokesperson Olivia Mitchell has expressed fears over the alleged move and feels it would have severe repercussions for the airline.

She said they would not receive the same level of loyalty in another country as they had in Ireland.

But she said Ryanair have been trying to move away from Ireland for some time by re-locating their hub to Stansted airport, and that they have been frustrated by the Dublin Airport Authority’s failure to provide them with a low-cost terminal.

CamelhAir

17th Dec 2005, 21:17

MOL is making a blatantly obvious statement to the IAA: "Don't look at the operation too hard boys or we'll pull your biggest airline revenue stream."

the grim repa

18th Dec 2005, 00:11

banzai - yes,certainly.

dfc - thats your opinion.

its all a smokescreen.do you thing the ryans want to have their name sullied by a third world airline.

Flame

18th Dec 2005, 01:08

Guys N Gals;

As a matter of interest, Does anyone know what the IAA charge to register a new aircraft as opposed to what the Latvian Aviation Auth. charge ... ??

Considering the potential size of the Ryanair fleet, will this make a difference to the FR balance sheet.....??

Midland 331

18th Dec 2005, 07:37

Not that this is "flagging out" of the fleet, but, on a nostalgia note, does anyone recall the days of the B1-11 and Romanian crews?

Did loads of them fail sim checks, or is this a "ramp legend"?

His dudeness

18th Dec 2005, 08:34

I´d bet a big bunch of money that this thing is about subsidies from the EU and if he can better ones than those still paid for Irisch based companies he´ll be heading there. No frigging doubt about it. If such a deal would mean more flight crew duty, it would be just a bonus.

LatviaCalling

18th Dec 2005, 19:19

I've checked a number of sources throughout the day and can report that they know nothing about it, or are not speaking because it is a very sensitive subject. Personally, I don't think the story is on the level, but getting all those EI planes changed to YL registration could bring in a hell of a lot of money to the Latvians and cut costs to Ryanair.

Shipwise, it was and still is a booming business for Liberia, Panama, Cyprus, Malta, etc. However, I may be wrong, but I don't think it will happen, yet I wouldn't put anything past the Latvian government, nor O'Leary.

The Transport Minister kissed O'Leary's feet and gave him a sweetheart deal to get him to fly into Riga from the woods outside of Stockholm, from the woods outside of Helsinki (Tampere) and to the woods way outside of Frankfurt. Plus, of course, to the UK and Dublin.

WHBM

19th Dec 2005, 11:41

Not that this is "flagging out" of the fleet, but, on a nostalgia note, does anyone recall the days of the B1-11 and Romanian crews?

Did loads of them fail sim checks, or is this a "ramp legend"?

Apparently the Romanian crews who came over with these aircraft were test pilots from the factory in Romania which assembled the final One-Elevens. The contract was the best paying aviation job in Romania at the time, and so they managed to pull rank and get them.

Skills were fine but their accented English was not, and they were prohibited by Ryanair from doing a PA to the pax except in an emergency situation, routine ones being done by the cabin crew. I've often wondered how poor old ATC coped with it though ! Someone at Dublin must remember.

rockflake

19th Dec 2005, 13:57

Hi Faire d'income,

I don't understand you comments re Tom McEnaney

He spends most of his time bashing the staff of any Irish airline and reproducing the management spin verbatum.

This must not be the same Tom McEnaney who broke the story about the Aer Lingus management's "12 push factors" used to induce staff to leave.

Rockflake

CamelhAir

19th Dec 2005, 14:35

Tom McEnaney (and the Indo in general) do indeed have a history of reproducing verbatim whatever Ryanair says, clearly without any sort of research being done whatsoever.
For example I recall he wrote a while ago that pilots are only allowed work, I think it was 13 hours, per week - all because EW said so. Such rubbish is par for the course with the Indo.

Tom McEnaney

19th Dec 2005, 15:05

Hi CamelhAir,

I note your comment. I make every effort to ensure that the articles I write are accurate, fair, balanced and well researched.

I think that the least we can expect from anybody writing in a public forum, be that a newspaper or a bulletin board.

In relation to your particular allegation, I have performed a full database check of every article I have written for the Irish Independent over the past nine months, which is to say when I moved from the Sunday Times to the Irish Independent. The only mention I have made in that time of the hours which pilots fly is the following:

Aer Lingus was looking to increase the amount of time which pilots would fly continuously from nine hours to 9.5 hours.

This article related to a discussion going on between Aer Lingus and pilots. I have never written or suggested that pilots only work 13 hours a week. That's obviously nonsense.

While as prone to human error as the next person, I am particularly aware of the need to be accurate, fair and balanced when what I am saying could reflect on the reputation of an individual or business or groups of individuals, such as pilots. Perhaps you could see your way to returning the courtesy.

I accept the need for some participants in a forum such as this one to be anonymous but I would also suggest that anonymity should not be abused to made unsubstantiated attacks on a professional's reputation.

I'm not claiming any moral high ground and tend to dislike those who do but let me put it another way. How would you feel if used an anonymous post to make erroneous and unsubstantiated allegation against a named pilot, perhaps suggesting that he or she enjoys a tipple before taking off.

regards,

Tom McEnaney

CamelhAir

19th Dec 2005, 15:21

Then I apologise. However, somebody did write an article in the Indo which did state that pilots worked some ridiculously low number of hours per work (I think the figure was around 13). The source was EW of Ryanair. The story sticks in the my mind as it was such a appalling piece of FR propaganda that had been reproduced by the paper without any checking of the facts whatsoever.
I apologise for impugning your professional reputation, I clearly am at fault for casting aspersions without checking who did actually write the article. I only wish all journalists did research their aviation related articles as well as yourself. Merry christmas!

Tom McEnaney

19th Dec 2005, 15:39

Apology accepted. I do think that extoling others to check their facts first is more than a little rich. Given that you have no doubt checked yours, can you tell me who wrote the article in question or when it was written?

JW411

19th Dec 2005, 15:55

Oh I do so much enjoy a good grovel - especially to one of the dreaded journalists who has had the balls to step up to the wicket!

atse

19th Dec 2005, 16:10

Mr. McEnaney, I think you will discover that the story about the 13 hours (and others, such as the Indo repeating stuff about Ryanair pilots earning €130,000 p.a., etc) - which are taken uncritically from Ryanair Press Releases - will turn out on examination to be substantially true. While you personally may have been incorrectly "targetted", "labelled" ... or whatever you want to call it ... in this instance, there is substance to pilot concerns that the press in general has a generally uncritical perception of Ryanair Press releases and repeats them with, apparently, gay abandon.

I am making these remarks not to attack you and your valid concern about your reputation, but just to make the point that the perception incorrectly attached to yourself by CamelhAir is widespread and, if I may add my opinion, this perception is not without a fair measure of justification.

CamelhAir

19th Dec 2005, 16:11

Tom, as requested, here is the article in question.

Irish Indo, Thurs 17th Feb 2005.
Article by Helen Bruce and
Charlie Weston

Ryanair: 'Our pilots are being harassed'

BUDGET airline Ryanair yesterday initiated High Court proceedings against the Irish Airline Pilots Asscoiation (IALPA), claiming it was behind intimidation of its pilots.

But IALPA flatly rejected any suggestion it was harassing or intimidating Ryanair pilots and pointed out that the Labour Relations Commission has said that it will hear a complaint taken by eight of Ryanair's most senior pilots who are claiming they are being victimised by Ryanair.

This row erupted after Ryanair claimed named officials of IALPA were involved in an "organised campaign of harassment and intimidation of Ryanair pilots" via the internet.

The airline has clashed with the union a number of times since introducing a number of cost-cutting measures last year.

Many of its pilots claimed their pay and working conditions suffered, and more than half had joined IALPA and the British union BALPA by late 2004.

This latest dispute concerns the use of the Ryanair European Pilot Association (Repa) website, which Ryanair said was organised and run by IALPA officials.

Ryanair said its pilots who were considering taking up positions on its new Boeing 737-800 series planes, flying additional European routes from Dublin later this year, were coming under attack on the website. In a statement, the airline claimed threats published on the website were now the source of a formal complaint to the Garda Siochana. Ryanair's director of personnel, Eddie Wilson, added: "We will not under any circumstances allow any of our pilots or people to become the victims of an organised campaign of intimidation.

"Dublin Airport should exist for the benefit of the travelling public, and not for feather bedding the high salaries and restrictive practices of pilots, many of whom in Ryanair's case earn over €130,000 per year for a legally capped maximum of 18 flying hours a week."

But a furious head of IALPA, Captain Evan Cullen said: "I totally reject any suggestion that any IALPA official has been involved in harassment and intimidation or victimisation of anybody."

He added that after the airline raised the issue of intimidation with IALPA it had offered to have the matter resolved by a third party, but this was rejected.

----
You will note no attempt to correct the glaring lie about the hours per week, neither referring to a) its falseness b) its disingenuousness.
The lie about the salary is a matter for another thread.

So whilst these are clearly the words of propaganda, and were not actually written by a journo, the fact remains that a no point were these words contested. So while we here on this forum, and in FR, know what weight to attach to anything issued by managament, the general public does not. So this report now furthers FRs agenda of making pilots appear to be lazy ba$tards in the eyes of the public. Its one thing to have FR issue spin, but for it to be printed as unquestioned fact is the thing most rich around here.

ShortfinalFred

19th Dec 2005, 17:05

Outstanding Camelhair. Good job finding the article concerned. There has been a concerted effort to paint pilots as lazy, academically unqualified, over-paid wasters for years. Big A@irways started out with a film called "Jet Jockeys" made with the full connivance of Big @irways years ago. Its sole aim was to portray pilots as fools. T' management 'apologised' afterwards, gleefully aware that the damage was done.

411a and others love to drag down their own profession, but I for one am proud of mine and ever more mindful of the years of hard work it took to get there, let alone the direct accountability command carries, in contrast to the legions of deskbound critics who "armchair quarterback" commercial pilots whilst rarely being directly accountable for anything themselves at all.

At last, a long overdue fightback with the potential for strikes at E@sy, Th@mas Cook and even Big A@irways itself if the great pensions rip off is forced through. Good luck to the guys at Ry@anair in resisting the great "flagger-out", perhaps the most dangerous man in commercial aviation today, Mr M@ike O' Lairy himself.

The UK merchant fleet went forign flag, and the direct result was the Lutine bell at Lloyds ringing once a week on average as a commercial hull went down. Safe transportation systems in a highly competitive market need strong, independantly-resourced, regulation. The Uk rail industry's dismal record ought to be proof of that.

Cant see Latvia fitting that bill somehow.

maxalt

19th Dec 2005, 17:37

Well hello Tom!
We're warned that journos frequent this forum, but its interesting to see how closely it's followed! A good source of rumour Tom? Or just a lazy way to do your job?

Don't be coy Tom. The Irish Independant, and its sister-title the Sunday Independent, are populated by hacks of the most virulently right wing and anti union leanings. The Editorials never fail to put the boot in on the labour movement in Ireland, witness the recent rantings about Irish Ferries!
Moore McDowell - one of your top business "correspondents" - would put Senator Joe McCarthy to shame with his 'Reds Under The Beds' fanaticism.

But then, given that the rag is owned by (Doctor) Tony O'Reilly - a multi millionaire Irish businessman - what else would one expect?

I recall reading an outrageous article by that guttersnipe Brendan O'Connor, penned in the Sindo shortly after the lock-out of Aer Lingus pilots in May 2002, in which O'Connor professed that Aer Lingus pilots spent their overnights having cocaine fuelled parties in every city in europe and the US.
I'll never understand why IALPA didn't sue his ass for that comment, but I guess treating anything the Sindo hacks write as serious journalism would be to endow it with a credibility it doesn't merit.

Speaking of Irish Ferries Tom. All that fuss about Latvians coming to take Irish jobs - as if its something remote or unlikely in the Irish transport industry!?? Did you not think to write an article exposing the fact that Ryanairs Dublin based cabin crew are almost exclusively East European now? I heard a figure of about a dozen Irish out of a workforce of 1,000. Wheres the story on that Tom? Or would that be too anti-business, and a turn off for the boss?

Needless to say Tom, I don't buy your rags. Wouldn't waste the money.

atse

19th Dec 2005, 17:55

Exceedingly well done CamelhAir. In fact, I now recall that this was all part of a big "propaganda push" in which named IALPA officials, IALPA, REPA and - eventually - Captain John Goss were targeted by by Ryanair. While I have not checked recently, I have no doubt that supporting Press Releases at the time, and later, are still on the Ryanir website.

You will notice the reference to the police investigation - again a just perfect example of how Ryanair targets individuals in any way it can, so as to teach important lessons to its staff. What reporter ever followed that claim up beyond giving Ryanair an opportunity to restate it, with the press obediently reprinting the claims ?

All of this was unquestioningly reported by certain elements of the media without doing much (anything?) in the way of looking behind the outward facade and asking basic questions as to what was going on. In fact I have never seen a single press report which has tried to look behind Ryanair's manifest motivation to attack the REPA website and individuals rather than organisations - (they, of course, say that they are concerned about their pilots being intimidated and were acting to protect them. Yea verily, that is just what they say). This from the management of an airline with 250 outstanding claims of victimisation by its pilots - claims that Ryanair have done everything to block in the court system so as to avoid a hearing.

And who in the Irish Independent has been doing anything by way of reporting on these issues ?!?!? Ans: Nobody. (Feeling better, rant mode selected to OFF).

CamelhAir

19th Dec 2005, 18:09

have no doubt that supporting Press Releases at the time, and later, are still on the Ryanir website.

That they are; I had to check back to find the date the aforemention article was written on.
I should also mention that in response to said article, and also in response other $hite published by the Indo, I wrote letters to the editor to highlight the lies. Needless to say none were ever published.
The Indo is merely a pawn in MOL's game. Its a pity they play the role so willingly and so well.

Best foot forward

19th Dec 2005, 18:58

Its only a matter of time before the Latvians realise that they can charge a lot more and probably will. It would be nice if the EU mps that we vote for and pay for could actually produce some form of legilation that would protect the jobs of the workers in the countries that are most at risk from the eastern expansion, of the EU.

worldwidewolly

20th Dec 2005, 08:13

One could imagine the cosy deal he would be getting to justify leaving the bosom of the IAA.
The IAA see no evil and hear no evil.
This is the association that likes to be seen to be really picky 'like the recent audit that requested flightplans to be printed by crews so they are more up to date.'

I have said it before and I will say it again. The IAA are incompetent so you could imagine what the Latvians would let them away with.

Take Dublin Airport. Potholes on the ramp. 5-6T for those that know it. Very poor Taxyway lines. Orange (Stop-Go-Maybe) bars that nobody knows what they mean.
I once did an airlaw exam to get an Irish Liscence and I was given a big book with all the answers scribbled on it and the examiner acknowledged it. And they are prudent??? Ha!

And I wont even mention the fact that you can drive an unroadworthy RYR 'New Generation' white van airside without any training what so ever. And the IAA allow this.

My point is the Latvians must be pretty lenient for RYR to go there. I am not concerned weather they do or don't. I aint going to believe or disbelieve anything they say. We know how reliable that is. I am going to enjoy my Xmas and RYR or Latvia will be the furthest thing from my mind. I suggest you do the same.

Merry xmas everybody.

Joe le Taxi

20th Dec 2005, 09:46

"you can drive an unroadworthy RYR 'New Generation' white van"

I'm sorry, wolly; You'll need a new bond and contract terms before you can drive that 'New Generation' white van around ;)

hazehoe

20th Dec 2005, 09:48

Soon you can drive a Lada or Skoda:ooh:

DFC

20th Dec 2005, 10:02

I think that the next appology is going to be made to the other Journos - Helen Bruce and Charlie Weston.

They said: "Dublin Airport should exist for the benefit of the travelling public, and not for feather bedding the high salaries and restrictive practices of pilots, many of whom in Ryanair's case earn over €130,000 per year for a legally capped maximum of 18 flying hours a week."

The bold emphasis was put there by CamelhAir who for some reason thinks that it is wrong or untrue.

This is typical of the Ryanair Bashing that degrades this forum on a continuous basis. Perhaps people should check their facts. People in Ireland will have in many cases listened to for example Pat Kenny's radio show yesterday which dealt with this issue.

Their employment expert concluded that if costs could be saved by moving the AOC to Latvia then that was a good idea for a low cost business remaining within the EU. There is a draft EU directive dealing with employment issues surrounding companies based in one EU country employing people from a second country. This was also discussed at length on the same radio show and perhaps everyone should familiarise themselves with that first.

Any comparison between this and any shipping issues is a false comparison as any person familiar with the recent Irish Ferries dispuite will know. Again this was dealt with on the above mentioned radio show.

Of course the dominant sourse for Ryanair Bashing is the UK where they may not in a position to listen to Irish radio or be aware of the details of Irish Ferries recent actions and are blind when it comes to reading European documents until after they are finalised and have only the ability to moan after the fact.

However, in Ireland most primary school children know that there are 52 weeks in the year and 18 *52 = 936. Their older brother/sister at secondary school will know that workers are entitled to a minimum of 2 weeks holiday per year. Back to the primary school child for 2*18 =36 and 936-36=900.

Any child can work out that one.

Perhaps someone thinks that pilots fly lots more than 900 hours per year?

Regards,

DFC

Ramsey

20th Dec 2005, 10:04

18 hours a week for 52 weeks is 936. So it seems it is actually less. 17.3 hours per week. That is average over a year so not completely untrue.

maxalt

20th Dec 2005, 10:17

Does duty time not count as work then ?

Pressman - Don't expect McEneaney to either know, care, or wish to clarify the difference to a cynical public. His own job depends on his slavishly following the Editorial byline and policies of his millionaire boss - and writing articles aimed at demolishing all resistance to reform of the labour market.

The media - not just in Ireland, but worldwide, are a tool of the business establishment.
They are BIG BUSINESS themselves!!

Why else do we see the rise of the 'Blogging' phenomenon, or the success of forums such as this. Intelligent, discerning people now prefer to get their NEWS and FACTS direct from the source, rather than digested, spun, and 'interpreted' by a pack of liars such as we find in journalistic employment.

Who hasn't read a news story with which they were familiar - and then marvelled at the errors, the stupidity, the exaggeration, the sheer damn laziness of the work these hacks do in their reporting? The way the truth is twisted by them so it becomes barely recognisable? Well - don't you stop to wonder then - is the REST of their daily scribbling equally full of sh1te?
The plain answer is, YES, of course it is.

Hope that your name doesn't reflect your real job Pressman.

And by the way, regarding Latvia - those of you who voted for the Nice treaty and now find your jobs under threat - DOH!!

CamelhAir

20th Dec 2005, 10:40

I am not aware of any regulation that stops me doing more than 18 hours flying per week. Maybe, DFC, you could point me to it?
I also like to consider time from check in to end of duty as my work time. To the uniniated, that article would have you believe that pilots can only do 18 hours work per week. Which of course was FR's plan.
The article was misleading and contained false information. Period.

the grim repa

20th Dec 2005, 11:41

http://today.reuters.co.uk/Investing/FinanceArticle.aspx?type=stocksNews&storyID=2005-12-20T120644Z_01_NOA043524_RTRUKOC_0_AIRLINES-RYANAIR.xml

heres a good one.looks like mol found out at yesterdays monday meeting that all his crews have run out of hours,despite dob's best attempts to pull the wool over the iaa and mol's eyes.boeing strike,my arse.its over with months and they are still openeing new routes.work that out newly arrives journo's.long live the irish times.

merry christmas to one and all,including leo.might get a visit from the ghost of christmas future.

http://www.sbpost.ie/breakingnews/breaking_story.asp?j=3539595&p=35396yx&n=3539687&x=

funny how we will be fully operational by april,when the crew hours are once again illegally zeroed.

CargoOne

20th Dec 2005, 12:11

Latvia is full EU member, under EASA regulations and JAR-OPS adopted. I believe that 900 hrs is max annual there. Anyway with Subpart Q coming soon it wouldn't be different.

However I really doubt if Latvian CAA can cope with a carrier of RYR size unless they will expand the staff by 3 times. Latvian (like all Baltic states) market is short of pilots, I'm note aware of any unemployed pilots there suitable for a 737 type rating. So unless MOL will attract the pilots from other operators there is no real supply.

atse

20th Dec 2005, 12:15

The bold emphasis was put there by CamelhAir who for some reason thinks that it is wrong or untrue. DFC, it is wrong, it is untrue and it is also misleading (the latter being the real objective).

All of us by now are familiar with Ryanair positions which rely on a kernal of truth (so that they can be defended) but which are essentially misleading shorthand that are attractive to journos (especially if they are up against a deadline). All you have to do is repeat their claim and you have done Ryanair's job for them.

DFC can you tell us now where the 18 hours per week legal maximum is stipulated? THAT is the claim. Your calculation does not justify that claim - indeed it is a matter of fact that Ryanair regularly exceed the very 18 hours per week that they claim to be a legal maximum.

Once again your credentials as a Ryanair fellow traveller are demonstrated for all to see.

Idunno

20th Dec 2005, 12:22

I've just read your post DFC, and out of interest I looked up that radio interview you used to bolster your argument.

Anyone interested in listening to it can find it on the RTE website - at this link: Pat Kenny Show. (http://www.rte.ie/rams/radio/latest/Mon/rte-todaywithpatkenny.smil)
You need RealPlayer to listen. The bit on Ryanair starts at minute 46:08.

DFC said: There is a draft EU directive dealing with employment issues surrounding companies based in one EU country employing people from a second country. This was also discussed at length on the same radio show and perhaps everyone should familiarise themselves with that first.
Any comparison between this and any shipping issues is a false comparison as any person familiar with the recent Irish Ferries dispuite will know.
Again this was dealt with on the above mentioned radio show.

If you actually listen to the replay you'll hear the 'employment law expert' say at minute 47:08 that while moving the AOC may be an effective and simple way for FR to reduce licencing costs - there is no guarentee that it would not have a negative impact on employee terms and conditions if (quote) "the move was to be part of a larger agenda."(unquote)

Ryanair having larger agendas? Perish the thought!!

The 'expert' expands on this at minute 48:10 by suggesting that FR could simply hire people on contracts written in Latvia - thereby circumventing any current 'issues' with the 'legacy states' labour laws or protections.
He goes on to explain about the new 'Services Directive' which will legally enshrine mobility of companies within the EU in future. The services directive will facilitate 'flagging out' of employment.
He mentions at minute 50:00 that this new law 'will not apply to transport companies (quote) "...for the moment as currently drafted." Thats very reassuring - NOT!

He also suggests (at minute 52:00) that there is already a simple way around the new Services Directive (as drafted) which is to simply open a HQ in your east european country of choice, and use the 'country of origin' legislation to claim shelter from legacy states EU labour laws.

This neutral (?) expert then goes on to say that this new directive is great because it gives opportunity to businesses. When asked what it does for employees he stuttered a bit and suggested it was "good for workers unless you believe in the Race To The Bottom theory as forwarded by the unions".

So - do you?

By the way - the Services Directive is at draft stage. It is not expected to become law until 2010. Meantime - its a free for all.

Any comparison between this and any shipping issues is a false comparison... Really? In what respect?

Finally, you suggest that "...the next appology is going to be made to the other Journos - Helen Bruce and Charlie Weston.

Lets take a look at the language used by these two reporters.

They said: "Dublin Airport should exist for the benefit of the travelling public, and not for feather bedding the high salaries and restrictive practices of pilots, many of whom in Ryanair's case earn over €130,000 per year for a legally capped maximum of 18 flying hours a week."

Are we meant to accept this as 'fair and balanced' comment?
What is the agenda here, if not to blacken and discredit FR's pilots?

This is not about Ryanair bashing - as you suggest. Quite the opposite! Its about Ryanair bashing their staff in an ongoing war of attrition on their terms and conditions.

DFC

20th Dec 2005, 12:25

CamelhAir,

Please revise your 50 times tables.

19 hours per week means 19*50=950 hours in a year.

MOL wants people like you who think that is a great idea to work for the IAA. :D

I also like to consider time from check in to end of duty as my work time.

Don't we all!!

To the uniniated, that article would have you believe that pilots can only do 18 hours work per week

No.

To people who are educated and understand printed english, the words "flying hours a week" means flying hours a week.

Perhaps if it was printed in the Sun or the Mirror, such big words would cause concern. However, the average reader of the Irish Independent can understand basic english phrases.

Pilots are only being productive when they are flying. Everything else while it may be essential to the operation is not directly making money.

Now if Ryanair only paid pilots per flying hour and expected them to do everything else for free like many UK operators I am familiar with, then you would have cause for complaint.

I know of and the CAA are aware of at least 1 UK pilot flying for a UK operator who has flown more than 100 hours in atleast 1 28 day period over the past summer. That pilot was only paid per flying hour and not for duty time ( thus the pilot did as much as possible). Nothing is done. What is the difference between this actual failure of regulatory oversight by the CAA and the alleged failures that you talk about?

This kind of trash is befitting of the UK gutter press and those that struggle to read it. It does not have any place on a professional forum.

Regards,

DFC

atse

20th Dec 2005, 13:42

This kind of trash is befitting of the UK gutter press and those that struggle to read it. It does not have any place on a professional forum. Is this, I wonder, a moment of insight and reflection by DFC on the content of this own written perambulations and justifications?

You certainly have been well exposed!! (Neat demolition job I dunno).

CamelhAir

20th Dec 2005, 16:46

However, the average reader of the Irish Independent can understand basic english phrases.

Correct, particularly as no big words were actually used. You are however missing/ignoring the point. As intelligent as the average Indo reader may be, he/she is totally unaware of FTL's and anything to do with them. Jo(e) Public neither knows nor cares what way Ryanair have calculated their 18 hours. They only see one thing: lazy pilots.

the words "flying hours a week" means flying hours a week.

Does it need to be spelt out? The public knows pilots fly, they see we do "18 flying hours per week" and assume thats all we do. If you think the public know/care anything at all about duty times/sim time/recurrent training time, you are very much mistaken.
Any pilot on this forum who can't see the (not so) hidden agenda here is clearly advocating that agenda or is really stupid. The statement is utterly misleading and no matter how you dress it up, it will remain so.

Pilots are only being productive when they are flying. Everything else while it may be essential to the operation is not directly making money

Absolute rubbish. If it is essential to the operation, whatever it is, it is productive. A pilots job is a package of many parts, all with the same goal of taking the public from A to B in safety. No parts are indispensible. You can't fly without the add-ons, if you can't fly, you can't make money. So everything from sims to recurrent CRM to recurrent SEP is in fact very much productive time.

Faire d'income

20th Dec 2005, 18:29

Wow a lot has happened since my last post on Mr McEnaney.

The mentioned article about the environmental push factors represented a very dramatic u-turn from his items published in the few weeks prior.

Here are some interesting words from our new poster:

Monday July 4th,

" In May, Aer Lingus announced that it was pulling the service ( Orlando ) after January because it could not get Impact, the union which represents cabin crew, to agree to changes in work practices.It is understood that Impact wanted its members to be allowed a stop-over in Orlando, effectively giving them a free short break every time they flew the route ( is that what it was Tom? )."

Ready for the bad news? It is understood that Aer Lingus lost €500,000 on that one route in May alone.

Of course this is a secret. The company never told us. Presumably there was no reason why we, the taxpayers, should know ( Eh how do you know? A balanced leak? ).

It is not fair to blame the Aer Lingus employees. They signed on for what were comfortable jobs with good conditions and a few nice perks. In many ways it is not fair to ask them to give that up for life in the new low-cost environment.

When you join Ryanair, you know what you are getting into, and you don't expect Michael O'Leary to lay on a bus to take you to and from the car park( His car park is beside his HQ. The referred to Aer Lingus one was 1/3 mile away. How would you like your sister walking through dark car-parks after work alone at 2am? ). This was only one of the many perks which Willie Walsh and his guys got rid off. Because the Government did not want to deal with the embarrassment of passengers being told that flights they had already paid for would not be available, Aer Lingus put off the termination date for the Orlando route until next January ( Funnily enough despite the route now making money [as new routes can do after a while] the aircraft will be switched to Dubai ) . How much the company will lose in the meantime is anybody's guess.

Tom McEnaney

Balanced Tom? Well researched?? Hardly, but there you go.

And now for the start of the article:

"THE real question for anybody interested in the future of Aer Lingus is not when will it be privatised and therefore get access to the cash it needs to complete its transformation into a low-cost carrier on short- and long-haul routes.

The real question is what will there be to privatise once, and if, the Government gets around to it.

For the company, which last week won Airline of the Year, is losing money hand over fist and, surprisingly, very few people seem to be shouting about it. A few weeks ago, this newspaper informed you that the company lost money every month this year, including May."

The Indo has gleefully prophesised the demise of Aer Lingus and the FR takeover for many years now. Thankfully every year despite their best efforts to scupper things, they are wrong.

Sorry for the ultra long post but to finish here is Mr McEnaney on July 6th, 2 days after the above:

"Aer Lingus lost money in every one of the first five months of this year, although it is understood that the losses were nominal. Under the terms of the business plan being followed by Aer Lingus management, the pre-tax profit target for 2005 is €105.5m."

Wing Commander Fowler

20th Dec 2005, 21:50

DFC - you are so full of 1t

Any comparison between this and any shipping issues is a false comparison as any person familiar with the recent Irish Ferries dispuite will know

This is a clear case of flagging out old china! The comparison is plain to see and I don't give a flying fig whether you THINK you know all about the issues in the irish fairies dispute or not! When an employer seeks to offload all of his western european staff to employ cheaper labour from abroad and legalises this by re-registering his vessels in that country then this is flagging out..... The sole purpose for this is to increase profitability and it doesn't matter to the employer whose lives get wrecked in the process. I've seen it many times before and find it utterly deplorable.

Flying Mech

21st Dec 2005, 10:42

Just reading todays Irish Indo & our man Tommy is at it again! Amongst the usual FR propaganda/Drivel is a claim that all FR's -200's in DUB will be replaced by NG's by the end of the week. Can anybody verify this? There must be some FR Crews who are Ppruners who would be in the know. Sorry I can't post a link to the story as Computers are not my Forte!

BBT

21st Dec 2005, 11:34

The last couple of -200s in Dublin will indeed be gone by the end of the week - barring a last minute change of mind.

tornadoken

21st Dec 2005, 12:07

1.This mere punter ventures here sadly. Just stop it, please. The career risks to FR's professionals do not lie with the incumbent frontman: if a crew strike were to topple him, the replacement devil would be of the same ilk. Pilots do not run businesses well. Don't rely on media/public sympathy, 'cos you are perceived as rich.
2.In 1992 I did some advisory work with EI and drew a total blank when I expressed their losses as I£ per Irish taxpayer and asked why air travel should be so privileged. I then did some work with Debonair Franco, whose Business Plan involved cheap links to novel, fun places such as Perugia, his home town, and to ex-military ports such as near FRA. Silly, I said, so what do I know about finding and retaining airline revenue. Rather less than MOL.
3. How lucky you all are that the best Euro-application of the Southwest LO-CO model is an employer of Irish citizens, more every day, limited only by the modest shoal of fish in that small pond.
4. You face 2 risks which you should help MOL to deal with: Greens banging on about NOx emissions, so short haul is immoral; and the pyramid nature of the capital per seat. The day will dawn when the average capital service per seat will not benefit from upfront discounts, deals and deferments. Crew are in the same boat as owners and bosses.

Wing Commander Fowler

21st Dec 2005, 12:34

Welcome to our whingeathon Ken - "pilots don't run businesses well" Bit of a sweeping statement isn't it? Are we given to generalising on occasion Ken? I wasn't born a pilot and not many of us were! Can you hand on heart claim that your statement is fair????

Come now...... I know of several pilots who have run VERY successful business and a few that still do! According to Copenhagen's now deleted post Willy Walsh is one of them ;)

Idunno

21st Dec 2005, 13:07

This threads turning into a bit of a deletion fest.

Tornadoken, do you seriously think pilots would 'strike to topple him [MOL]'? I think you've got a poor grasp of the situation.

In 1992 ALT was a different animal to what it is today. The staff have taken a lot of pain and accepted a lot of change. Its in good health now, and profitable. Whats your point?

Are we meant to be grateful MOL is "an employer of Irish citizens"? Is he a registered charity?
Get the violins out!
I'd like to see a link to a credible source showing the number of Irish employees he has, and the number of non-Irish for comparison. The whole point of MOL's model (don't compare him with SouthWest or Herb Kelleher) is to employ AS FEW PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE for AS LITTLE PAY AS POSSIBLE! Its called PRODUCTIVITY. You should understand the concept.

And hey - I may not be a tree hugger but I'm concerned about the environment. And I personally do also worry about the rampant consumerism in society. And I'm concerned about workers rights. MOL and FR are problematic on all three counts.

Faire d'income

21st Dec 2005, 14:23

Here is an apparent conflict of spin that our hacks never seems to pick up:

From Ryanair.com 4th oct 2005.

“The recent announcement of the cessation of the Boeing strike will in turn enable our aircraft deliveries to be “back on track” by the end of December 2005. We anticipate there will be no material adverse impact on the company’s financial performance or passengers carried arising from the strike.

Word in the Irish Times is that due to the Boeing strike over a thousand flights could be cancelled ( or amalgamated or whatever ) in the first 3 months of 2006.

The word on the apron is that it has little to do with Boeing. More to do with crewing or lack thereof maybe. Are many guys up on 900 hours? Or is it people leaving?

CamelhAir

21st Dec 2005, 14:53

Our old friend Mr McEnaney is spouting the same stuff in the Indo today about the so-called strike effects. As indeed the word on the ramp is that it has little to do with aircraft deliveries and all to do with crewing problems, one wonders if Mr McEnaney has done as much research into the story has he has claimed he does do. Unless he feels that believing as gospel an FR press release counts as research.

Cyrano

21st Dec 2005, 16:57

Just a thought...

If an airline has to cancel flights because of a Boeing delivery delay, it's fairly clearly "outside the airline's control" in terms of passenger compensation.

However, if it is cancelling because of a shortage of crews, surely that's equally clearly within the airline's control, and thus opens the airline to a higher level of claims from pax?

I believe that compensation is limited in any case if the airline gives >2 weeks notice, but it sounds as though at least some flights fall within this.

I'm not suggesting this is a reason for Ryanair's action - I would actually be quite happy if someone could reassure me that it's not relevant here!

Leo Hairy-Camel

21st Dec 2005, 18:06

Oh dear! Poor Tom McEnaney has done the unthinkable, hasn’t he? Not only has he displayed the intestinal fortitude of wading into our dysfunctional little snakepit here at Pprune wearing his own name as a handle, but before the electronic ink is even dry, the usual suspects surface from beyond the edge of darkness to attack his integrity and fly at the jugular of his honestly and 4th pillar professionalism. Sigh….it was ever thus. Hold fast and take heart, Mr. McEnaney. Your guts and honesty are admired in more quarters than merely my own, I can assure you.

That Maxalt has slithered out from under his rock to hurl his customary, if somewhat dull, invective in your direction was tiresomely predictable. He is, after all, the pin-up boy to the Politics of Failure of which I write from time to time. It is compelling to wonder at the dwarf behind the nom de plume, I grant you, and why individuals are motivated to write as they do, but too much pondering in this regard distracts from the facts, and since you are, by deed and substance, a purveyor of the truth, I won’t waste either of our times any further, beyond this brief reflection on the nature of the craven.

If you observe the postings over time of our little max and the slightly more urbane but no less vicious Minuteman, they follow a certain pattern, both in timing and intent. Entirely explicable when one considers the nature of IALPA’s ethically corrupt and morally bankrupt campaign to impugn and undermine Ryanair whenever they observe a target of opportunity. This is, after all, what the craven do. They beat their egos in time with their chests, then stand aside from the fray and let others do their fighting for them. Disappointed, or so it seems, with their skills at puppetry in the Dublin crewroom, our dynamic duo have fixed bayonets and scurried off in the direction of, at one time or another, our maintenance standards, our treatment of cadet pilots, and now leaping on the bandwagon of those wicked and nasty Latvian and Polish employees who are, if you swallow the bilge, undermining the Irish workers rights and way of life.

Consider, if you will, the change that Ireland has undergone since joining the €uropean Union. It has transformed our fortunes from a rim-Atlantic, irrelevant backwater, to a powerhouse on the European and world stage, thanks in no small measure to the vision of Cathal Ó hEochaidh and those inspired by his economic leadership. Yet, now that our houses are worth 5 and 10 times what they were even ten years ago, now that we’ve German cars, disposable incomes and holiday homes in Bulgaria, we have the hypocrisy to wail like stuck pigs when accession states are doing precisely what we Irish did not so many years ago? Such hubris takes the breath away, were it not seen for what it is.

Tornadoken, your clarity is a breath of fresh air, but you miss the glaringly obvious. EI finds itself at the
abyss. (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=05&month=dec&story=rte-en-211205&view=email) All those gorgeous LHR slots could transform our union-infested Flag Carrier, post Openskies, into a trans-Atlantic low cost carrier par excellence, and accelerator of the doom of all those winged North American economic zombies currently languishing in chapter 11 cotton wool. True leadership, though, requires both courage and determination in equal measure. Sadly lacking in the Irish industrial environment, except for a famous few. The future belongs to those with the vision and courage to mould it.

Happy Christmas to you, one and all. I wish you, and yes, even you Didimus, the Grace of The Word made man and/or the peace of the Winter Solstice.

CamelhAir

21st Dec 2005, 18:35

Looks like Leo's boozy festivities have begun early this year. As off the point posts go, this one takes the mick. The most tiresomely predictable thing so far on this thread has been the tiresomely predictable attack on IALPA, yawn. Nobody else has mentioned IALPA so far, so the relevance is somewhat lost. As usual.
The rest of the post is nothing more than meandering cliched waffle but it appears that the Indo's use of FR propaganda as independently researched news is welcomed by LHC. No surprise there then. I presume were anything anti-FR to appear in any paper, it would be an example of IALPA conspiring or some rubbish like that. Ne'er the despotic like balanced independent stories broadcast.
Anyway, this thread has gone completely off the point, so I will bow out.

minuteman

21st Dec 2005, 22:20

Urbane, at times maybe, vicious, not so sure.

Regardless, there must be some sort of competitive advantage whereby FR maintains an Irish AOC above all others. Whatever in particular the advantage is, I do not wish to speculate.

If FR envisage moving the operation to another state, MOL and whoever else must see some sort of angle for competitive gain. Whatever that is, that is also a matter for speculation. How such a move would not affect any of its' staff is something I cannot see. There is plenty of evidence that where you work for FR has a rather large effect on how your terms and conditions are formed.

However Leo, if you really want to vent your spleen about the "morally corrupt" IALPA, please go along to a meeting and tell all your colleagues about your plan of how you can do it all so much better. Maybe the point has been missed all along....?

Idunno

21st Dec 2005, 22:33

Speaking of 'intestinal fortitude' Leo - if you admire Mr.McEneaneys emergence from the closet so much, why don't you follow suit? Perhaps your intestinal qualities are located lower in the colonic area than even his?

Interesting to see you summon the ghost of Christmas Past - the old eminence grise himself - Cathal Ó hEochaidh.
Charles Haughey to our non-Gaelic speaking readers.
Ex -Taoiseach of Ireland.

Interesting indeed to see you sing the praises of a man whose name has been discredited by scandal throughout the land, a man whose name is a bye word for the wretched political corruption, greed and embezzlement that dragged the country down for decades.

But Charlie was a friend of the RICH. He knew where his bread was buttered - plenty of grease from Dunnes Stores helped him and his mates slide down the corridoors of power.

Certainly he was generous to your boss Tony (nudge nudge - wink wink) as no doubt Tony was to him! One good turn deserves another.
Does Ryanair still have that -200 flying around with the EI-CJH reg?
Tony ought to consider donating it to 'the Chief' when it goes out of service.
Then again - maybe not.
No need to kowtow to CJ any more.
He's run out of usefullness now.
Served his purpose.
Past his sell by date.

Still, they were great ould days, eh? Nudge Nudge.

By the way Leo - just how many of your DUB based cabin crew are east european now? How many are Irish?
Come on - you'll be thrilled to enlighten, us for sure.