BA Cabin Service Director Pay

[plaa343]

All-Knowing CC,

What are the starting rates of pay for Long-Haul Cabin Services Directors with BA?

Thanks for your time

[Carnage Matey!]

I heard it was £35K on the old contract. Don't think we have any new contract CSDs. Not bad for handing out GPMs and landing cards and the occasional IFE reset.

[whattimedoweland]

Plal343,
I am a CSD with BA and have been for six years.I do not discuss on an open forum what I earn.The only person who knows that is my wife,some day I'll tell her I get allowances!!:O :D . All I will say is that after six years I am still well short of what CM thinks.If I was on that I'd be very happy and might trade in my S REG Astra Estate(I don't even have a Labrador!!).

I am very happy with what I get and tend to think I work for it unlike the always friendly to Cabin Crew CM!!;) . I do not only give out GPM's:mad: , I as any crew who know me work for the first 3-4 hours in both World Traveller and Club,do any on board paperwork 15-20 minutes max!!(for those CSD's who make it last all flight),lazy gits!!.

I then do the standard walk-a-bouts and include juice rounds in that.Change the films two to three times.

During the flight I also have a chat with the pax and the crew and make arrangements for downroute ,never forgetting to include my flight crew COLLEAGUES .

Oh yes I nearly forgot then I do the GPM's(myself;) ).

Just for the record CM I always try to get to the bar first and buy the first round and get the ball rolling.Please don't say it's a cheap round because I'm the only one there!!.

I enjoy the job,I enjoy coming to work and feel very lucky to be in the best position in the airline(in my opinion).I have worked on the ramp and in check in but never thought once about the pay as it was always the job I wanted.

CM,the truth please,are there really so many lazy CSD's out there.If so tell them preferably in front of the crew!!.

WTDWL.
;)

[keeperboy]

My neighbour is a WW LHR CSD. (50% contract)

I am WW LHR Cabin Crew (New Contract - full time).

He always takes the p*ss out of me as he says he takes home more than I do and works only 50%.

Ha bloody ha. :mad:

80% of WW CSD's definitely seem to work fairly hard though, doing quite a bit more than landing cards and GPM's.

I do think they should be WRITTEN INTO the service tho, to sort out the lazy 20% that do sweet FA and are a disgrace to BA.

[whattimedoweland]

Keeperboy,I would love to be written into the service as I enjoy being busy.However come that alert call or med emergency they would have to be able to come out of the service.

If he is saying that about the size of his pay packet I wonder what else he lies about size wise!!;) :O .

WTDWL.

[Jetstream Rider]

whattime - whats wrong with the CSD coming out of the service to deal with an alert call? It happens on shorthaul.

One of the things we are taught up the front is to prioritse and the bad CSD's are appalling at it. (I don't imply anything here towards yourself). It can easily be written that they come out of the service if required. There could even be a list of requirements. We have similar in our books.

[keeperboy]

whattimedoweland i see your point re being needed in an emergency.

But fact is, nearly EVERY other airline has a CSD equivalent that is written into the service. I know QF do, AF and LH as well. I'm guessing others are the same.

But for some reason, BA's are not. Even when we lost another main crew on the jumbo they still weren't written in.

This isn't usually a problem, as most CSD's are like yourself and lead by example (ie work!).

But there are a good 20% that are the single most lazy, miserable, de-motivating member of the entire crew. And being written into the service would address this minority.

[whattimedoweland]

Everyone I agree with you, I WANT TO BE WRITTEN INTO THE SERVICE:O .
I enjoy working and being in the cabin.It's good fun and the time passes quicker.I am not a CSD who wants to take over from Jonathan Ross as the next 'gwait film quitic'!!:p .

I was shorthaul CSD for five great years and spent every day on a trolley,no problems.

As crew numbers are reduced(8.5% at the last reductions), it is more important than ever for CSD's to get off their butts and do some work.It's not hard on a 747 to work with the purser backing up bars,doing a meal trolley and giving a hand with t&c it's not rocket science nor hard work.Try loading ten tonnes of loose bags and frieght at 6 in the morning in the winter!!.

WTDWL.

P.S. Keeperboy,

I forgot to mention I read lots of your posts and find them to be some of the best and well balanced on this forum.

I just don't post too much as I try to stay clear of the constant back biting and sad comments from some people, who can only say it from the cover of a forum and have'nt got the balls to say it to your face on board or in the bar.

I have to say we all know there are lazy people in all grades not just CSD's and it's up to you and I to let them know.This just does'nt apply within our job but in all walks of life there are lazy people waiting to be carried.

[ChewyTheWookie]

"However come that alert call or med emergency they would have to be able to come out of the service."

I don't know which airline you work for but at BA if we get the alert call the service is immediately suspended in every cabin and ALL crew report to their alert stations.

[OzzieO]

Why do you want to know how much a BA CSD earns anyway??

[whattimedoweland]

Chewy,
Same airline as you ,badly written I was just making a point but alert call was of course not the right example.If anything went wrong in other areas then we would come out of the service.
Will not post after a bottle of red again!!:O .

WTDWL.

[dontdoit]

Heathrow CSDs - Unless you are genuinely embarrassed by the amount of money that you earn, put a figure on it for the rest of us and put this arguement to bed once and for all!

[plaa343]

All,

Thankyou for all of your responses, and apologies if I have opened a can of worms with regards to BA staff pay.

The reason for my inquiry is to assist in the development of a Cabin Crew Pay Spine for a start-up airline. The airline will initially fly a single trans-atlantic route using a fleet of A340-300s from a London base.

Your informed opinions on the pay spine below would be much appreciated.

Junior Cabin Crew
0 13,000 pa
+1 13,900 pa
+2 15,000 pa
+3 15,500 pa

Senior Cabin Crew
0 15,500 pa
+1 16,000 pa
+2 16,400 pa
+3 16,750 pa

Pursers
0 17,700 pa
+1 18,100 pa
+2 18,600 pa
+3 18,950 pa
+4 20,800 pa

Passenger Service Managers
0 24,000 pa
+1 25,500 pa
+2 26,800 pa
+3 28,000 pa


Invariably annual wage increases in line with inflation and union negotiation are not reflected in the above figures. I would also like to stress the following elements of our planned Cabin Crew rewards package:

* All staff are company employees, not contracted
* Company pension contributions
* Private healthcare
* 5* accomodation on stopovers
* $35 daily meal allowance on stopovers
* Representation at monthly managment meetings (2 CC, 1 Purser, 1PSM present)

Your (constructive) feedback is appreciated. Let me know what you think we have got right, and what we could do better. We all recognise that our relationship with our passengers is key to success, and the key to achieving good passenger relationships is via well motivated and driven Cabin Crew.

Many Thanks

Chris

[sukigirl]

Perhaps im being naive or not reading this thread properly but do BA crew really not know how much the salary is for each rank? i thought it was standard for it to be common knowledge with in the airline. At my airline its simple and clear how much each person in each rank earns, its a set straight figure.
Is it the case in BA that 2 CSD's could be on completely different salarys to each other depending on length of service and if the are on 'old' or 'new' contract?

[keeperboy]

No Suki, there is no set pay scales within BA.

There isn't just the 'old and new' contracts banging about.

BA has been around for a while so there is also the ex b-cal contract, BOAC contracs, BEA contracts....the list goes on.....

[Tandemrotor]

plaaa343

"Your informed opinions on the pay spine below would be much appreciated"

Oh, I bet it would! (To many of us)

I can only imagine you won't be getting too many applications from current BA cabin crew. I suspect you can draw your own conclusions from that!

[whattimedoweland]

Plaa343,

£10.00 per day meal allowance for the USA.That may just get you a sandwich a coffee and a small beer/wine if you shop around.

May I suggest you visit the USA and then re-think.You may then receive an application ;) .

WTDWL.

P.S. Would every pilot,engineer and check-in agent, for all airlines,passengers (whatever job you do) for whatever company, please post on here,an open forum the very personal details of what you earn as some people are very keen to know!!!:p .

What is this great fasination with what I earn?:confused: .

I don't ask what a BA pilot gets on draft do I!!!.

[plaa343]

whattimedoweland,

Initial post has been edited (the £10 was a typo on my part, copied a flight pay hourly scale by mistake).

Minor changes also made to Jnr CC, Purser and PSM payscales.

All constructive comments appreciated.

Thanks

[TopBunk]

Constructive comment (without talking about money):

Why such a complex structure (junior, senior, purser, psm)?
Why not just main cabin crew and purser positions, the most senior purser being 'in charge' and receiving a small payment for the sectors operated in charge?

[Golden Ticket]

Jeez, is anybody going to finally get rid of these hangups about what other folk are paid. I don't give a@*!? about what others are paid or how hard they work. Is anyone gonig to post it on these forums, anon or not?

Why are there always these demands being made to divulge their salaries, all of you find something useful to do with your time. Damn, I need to practice what I preach.

TopBunk, BA has been around for quite a while now and has bought out, taken over or absorbed many companies and therefore contracts. It seems to be the case that rather than put the staff on these companies contracts they seem to just change the company name on the top to BA and leave the t&c's untouched. As a consequence there's lots of variations withing staff groups like cabin crew and ground staff and pilots.

It seems because BA didn't resolve these issues when they took over these companies it's proving harder to do now.

[ETOPS]

a single trans-atlantic route using a fleet of A340-300s from a London base.

Would that be "Easy Atlantic" ?

[plaa343]

ETOPS,

No - not the much rumoured EasyAtlantic. 8 hours in a bright orange cabin may be a bit of a strain on PAXs eyes.

[ETOPS]

Too true:ok: Hope it's not RYR either...... Just imagine the hype

Fly direct to New York (Bangor Maine)

[TopBunk]

Golden Ticket

Thank you for updating me on what happens in my own airline!

If you choose to reread the original post and my reply more carefully, I was questioning in a new start-up airline why one would choose to have such a hierarchy when it is patently not required and not best industry practice.

[ETOPS]

plaa343

Hmmm:hmm: The plot thickens.................BMed or GB Air?

I wonder...............

[beauport potato man]

i'm sure the management of GB or Bmed wouldn't need to resort to question asking on this kind of forum to establish the level of pay for CSD's.....

Although i am very interested (from a GB point of view) to see how this develops....

The only UK operator of the A340 is VS, so where are the crews coming from?

plaa343 i shall watch your replies with interest

bpm

[plaa343]

ETOPS and beauport p-m

The company is a completely new start-up and not a rebrand of an existing airline.

i'm sure the management of GB or Bmed wouldn't need to resort to question asking on this kind of forum to establish the level of pay for CSD's..... A valid comment - we invariably have access to industry figures with regard to flight crew remuneration, including the ever useful ;) CAA annual figures. However, since (unusually) the Senior Management team of the company have a large amount of aviation experience they seem to value the opinions of the sort of people who do the job for real. Strange, I know. . . .

I was questioning in a new start-up airline why one would choose to have such a hierarchy when it is patently not required and not best industry practice.

I appreciate the comments of the hierachy of the planned CC system. There is a delicate balance to be struck between too many layers of authority clouding lines of responsibility and the requirement to offer genuine career progression within the company. In practical terms the only CC types that will exist are Crew, Pursers and PSMs. The seperation of CC into Jnr and Snr is soley financial to allow experience to be reflected in the pay spine.

The only UK operator of the A340 is VS, so where are the crews coming from?

VS are certainly the only operator of the larger A340-600, but there are charter operators using A343s and the occasional A342 from the UK. However, to answer your real question, the crews will come from the open market and ab-initio sources. A programme is being developed to provide a training package for crews of different aircraft types. The primary target crews will be ex 747-400, 777 and of course Airbus family aircraft. A seperate "ab-initio" package will also be contracted.


Outside of corporate confidentiality I am prepared to answer any questions that you may have in order to gain a grass-roots opinion of our planned ops.

Again, Thanks.

[beauport potato man]

plaa343

thanks for the response......... what i was most pleased to hear was your comment that your management / or the management you are acting for seem to value to opinion of people on the 'shop floor' ....

Having worked on the ground in various posts and laterly in the air as both cabin crew and flight deck i have seen many an ill-thoughtout plan implemented and fail, when all that was needed was a simple chat or an opinion from those 'in the know'.

would be most interested - within the confines to which you can allow - to hear how this all progresses.

good luck

bpm

[whattimedoweland]

'RyanAir to New York(somewhere in N.America), one way €10.00'.

Return fare €1800.00!!!!.

WTDWL.:p .

[proudfishead]

I agree

[plaa343]

CC,

Thank you for all of your responses, and PMs, they are much appreciated. I have a few questions that I would like to ask:

1. What do CC think the role of the PSM/CSD/In-Charge should be?

2. Should the In-Charge have an assigned station for service?

3. What is the response to a formalised process within a company of progression from CC to the Flight Deck (with the invariable aptitude tests and return of service)?

In order to make our position clear here are our thoughts:

A1. The role of the PSM is the company's customer service representative. Time would be spent talking to customers and ensuring that the overall aim of cabin service was being achieved, no direct station would be asigned, however, it would be expected that PSMs would spend enough time at each station during each monthly work cycle to ensure they understand the "shop floor" issues of the time. The leadership role is also emphasised, the PSM is the line manager to his/her CC and the direct link between the CC and the Captain.

A2. As A1 states we believe that the PSM, as in-charge, should have no asigned station (with the exception of an emergency station).

A3. We firmly believe that there should be a formalised process to allow talented CC to progress to the Flight Deck. We would be looking to allow in the region of 2-3 CC per year to progress through a company sponsored training program to the Flight Deck as a FO.

Your thoughts and comments are, as ever, much appreciated.

Many Thanks

[Carnage Matey!]

Do you think the CAA will like the idea of taking a 170 hour ab-initio pilot and putting them at the controls on an A340? That day of base training will be rather expensive also. Without the required 1500+ hours to hold a full ATPL it's also going to cost you on insurance to have such an inexperienced pilot at the control of such a large aircraft.

[plaa343]

taking a 170 hour ab-initio pilot and putting them at the controls on an A340?

We have no intention of putting a 170 hour ab-initio pilot at the controls of an A340. Apart from the fact that it would be almost impossible to insure, it would not be a safety conscious decision. The likely route (far from finalised) would be something like that outlined below:

* CC selected for transfer programme to the Flight Deck
* PPL/Night/IMC conducted as a block
* Continued employment as CC
* Distance learning ATPL examinations
* Leave CC roster
* CPL/ME/IR
* Hours building
* Secondment to a regional airline (negotiations in place) for 9 - 16 months
* Return to us and commence FO line training
* End of programme, 2000 hours total time, 1500 jet FO
* Fully employed as FO within the company.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

[Golden Ticket]

Sorry for misunderstanding your post TopBunk didn't mean to cause offence. I thought your original post was querying why BA was as it was, not a new start airline. I read your post out of context with plaa343's.

[ian_harrington]

I think the role of PSM is well thought out. I am a firm believer that the overall SCCM needs to have a hands on approach to the service, otherwise how else can they guide and improve it if they are not actively participating.

I do feel that not assigning them to a particular role in the service is good. This means that the PSM can carry out the PR part onboard and also hop on a trolley in any of the cabins to see how the service is going and to monitor performance of colleagues too.

The PSM must have an allocated safety station, true. However the benefit of not assigning the PSM to a service position means the service is not hampered if he/she is required to visit the flight deck, or to fix the IFE, or deal with negative comments from pax etc. The list is endless.

The above does not mean that the PSM can hide in the corner and just do paperwork. PSM’s should be looked up to by the other crew. Therefore an example should be set by the onboard manager. The more they get involved in the service and the crew welfare, the more respect and motivation will be secreted by the crew. Thus giving a polished and professional service.

To summarize. Yes, get them involved in the service and have them in all cabins. It looks nice too for an economy pax to see the PSM. I have noticed it before that the overall SCCM does not make it to the back of the aircraft apart from to make their way to the bunks. It looks bad. The economy pax may have paid less. It does not mean to say they should not be treated differently. If the PSM spends time in economy for parts of the service along with doing the PR. Who knows, maybe next time the pax travel with the company they may wish to experience the benefits of the next category of cabin ?


In response to the idea on filtering CC thorough for FO sponsorship. Great! Lots of people that I have come across have loved working a crew but wanted to challenge themselves more. However, the opportunities were not always there. Good way of keeping staff too. It is hard to keep employees loyal so if this is the way to offer a progression and self development. Great!

The final comment is “…please send me an application form for the CC roles…””