A400M or C17 the next big thing

[Mirkin About]

Good news for Air Lift Group if it comes to fruition.

RAAF to spend $2bn on heavy lifting fleet
John Kerin
December 15, 2005
AUSTRALIA plans to spend up to $2 billion on a fleet of giant aircraft to transport Abrams tanks and other heavy equipment around the world.

Defence sources are concerned that Australia has had to rely on massive US-built Boeing C-17s or charter Russian Antonov jet transports to get its troops to Afghanistan and Iraq.
Sometimes the foreign heavy lift is not available and boosting the RAAF's global reach will improve the Australian Defence Force's self-reliance and ability to be deployed.
The RAAF's versatile workhorse, the C-130 Hercules, can only carry about a quarter of the payload of a C-17.
The Government is considering buying or leasing long-term up to four US C-17s or eight smaller Airbus Military A400M propeller-driven aircraft. The A400M is being built for eight European air forces.
Defence Minister Robert Hill confirmed last night that cabinet had given its approval to examine the purchase of a "heavy lift transport capability".
He said Defence had been asked to examine available aircraft, with costed proposals expected to be presented to cabinet by March.
Defence sources say the C-17, which has been in service with the US Air Force since the early 1990s, is a proven aircraft, which would likely be ready for delivery earlier than the Airbus.
Although equipment such as jeeps and even small trucks can be moved by the Hercules, the C-17 can carry an Abrams tank or 120 troops - greatly increasing the firepower that can be deployed during a single flight.


C17 for me

[Buster Hyman]

For real uplift capability, the Antonov is a clear winner...if only you could put Western engines & remove the valves from the flight deck!

[Capn Bloggs]

valves from the flight deck
Valves, What Valves?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/webpixx/prune/an24.jpg

[Buster Hyman]

The avionics bay, which is behind the cockpit, contains valves...well, last time I looked it did.

[Like This - Do That]

Let's see .... 4 C-17s .... 1 will be in deep maintenance, (which won't be done by Qantas of course, 'cos they'll be doing all theirs in China), 1 will be in storage 'cos they cost so much to run, 1 will be half way around the world, which leaves ..... carry the four, dot the 7, ummm .... 1 left to do some work each day. "Gawd, can't let the bl00dy army put tanks in it today - we might need it for something!!!!"

Is 4 C-17s a silly token little fleet or am I being cynical?

[Buster Hyman]

...army put tanks in it ...
That would be tank, singular I think.;)

[twenty eight]

Weight of Abrams MBT 60 - 68.7 TONS link (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm)
A400m Max. Payload 37 tonnes link (http://www.airbusmilitary.com/specifications.html)

[slice]

Didn't the RAF only lease 4 ??

[Aerodynamisist]

Buster alot of ruski machines still have valves even the fighters.
Why - Valves are imune to electro magnetic pulse transistors are not. Good idea to grab a few and westernise them I bet they would be allot cheaper than a c17 aswell.

[Buster Hyman]

...and if it works, lets grab a few Flankers too!:E

[Roller Merlin]

So Crystal Balling.....
...ah yes, buy a fleet of too-heavy tanks because the yanks have them and we want to plug-n-play, but then realise they are too big to fly them into the playground! Ok, so now spend lots on a minimal fleet of C17. Now we all look happy, so sign the contract. Wisely incorporate with options for more, so it looks like a bargain. Hmm...then Govt is informed that despite the tanks playing at hime, we don't have the capability to deploy more than one at a time. Govt three years later agrees it is a grand idea to double the C17 fleet.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

C17's would free up Hercs to be doing what they are built for. Tactical airlift.

Before you scoff at the C-17 just take a look at the British leasing example. They got them, now they are being worked like big trojans. ;)

C17 can have here and now. A400 still on the plans. Replace 36 SQN with C17's and make em a strat SQN I say :} :}

[NIMFLT]

How about re-form 35SQN with C17's or A400's and keep all our C130's.

[Loadmaster]

I believe that they are building a IL76 with western instruments and engines.

Pull your head in pass-a-frozo. The best thing to do would be to can your aircraft now and upgrade the Herc's (C130'H') to Talon specs. Replace the below average under performing grey thing with a proficient and capable strat airlifter and let the Herc's get on with the Tac work.

[blueloo]

You're all fools, clearly the only logical solution is a fleet of 20 Tupelov 154's with special sling loaded carrying ability.

I propose, each TU-154 is equipped with a 3000m - 70tonne capable cable - so that at completion of the takeoff roll, the M1A2 is "clean and jerked" off the runway.

[PLovett]

I though the idea of the M1s was that they would never leave Australia but that the crews could be flown to whatever theatre of operations the US is currently in (and would like Australian participation) and drive the tanks the US had place there? No need for C17s or whatever.

Might be a bit different if Peter Costello releases a few dollars and the ADF go through with the idea of an armoured brigade.

[NAMPS]

Call 4 C-17s a "fleet"?

I think the money would be better spent on hundreds of "Quadra-puffs". They certainly look the part.

Imagine being a pilot in the Smurf jet SQN :p

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Replace the below average under performing grey thing with a proficient and capable strat airlifter and let the Herc's get on with the Tac work. I'm not sure what factual basis you use to call the "grey thing" below average and under performing.

[Capn Bloggs]

Imagine being a pilot in the Smurf jet SQN
I'm in one and apart from the officers running it, it's great fun, albeit a bit stinky..:}

[The The]

I think they need this

http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/heisten/antonov/antonov.htm

[Point0Five]

Loadmaster

Given that the government is "Considering options for heavy airlift capabilities to supplement the medium lift C-130 J Hercules aircraft.", I wouldn't waste too much breath extoling the virtues of the H.

I'll save you the embarrassment of rebutting your comment about replacing "the below average under performing grey thing with a proficient and capable strat airlifter".

The only context in which that comment rings true involves the 707 :hmm:

[TIMMEEEE]

Now let me see.........Airbus vs Boeing/Lockheed.

Bit of a no-brainer really!

The C17 has done stirling service so far and it seems reasonable to lease a few.

Now you think if the airlines complain about service and support from Airbus in major capitals/centres, I wonder how Airbus would provide support in say Afghanistan?

At least Boeing/Lockheed can supply and support with an aircraft that has a proven track record here and now as opposed to the Airbus pipedream.

Bummer about Airbus losing that Qantas order eh?

[macbew]

The stupidity of all this talk about buying the M1 and not being able to transport them by air is that we cannot deploy the current Leopard tanks by air either. I don't think there are any tanks around that can be deployed by Herc. And before anyone says it, I know that some APC's can be moved by Herc but they are not frontline battle tanks. I believe that the C17's are the way to go as we have needed this type of capabilty for ages and it is the only true option to fill this void asap.

[blueloo]

Are we buying ****ebox secondhand M1's or upgraded M1s to M1A2s or just the M1A1s secondhand?

[Mr Hankey]

They are buying M1's that are second hand and zero timed with turbines that can run on diesel as well as avtur. The are being given to John W. Howard dirt cheap so the US has a ready made "coalition" to invade other countries with gay abandon.

As for the C-17 or the M400. This is no contest....the M400 can carry about half the weight of an M1 while the C-17 can carry carry just over the weight of an M1.

Still, what an appalling waste of money.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Still, what an appalling waste of money. I doubt you would think that if you saw how much the ADF spends on heavy lift charter a WEEK.

[Buster Hyman]

And even with those charters, how often do they fly the Leopards around?:rolleyes:

[Point0Five]

Why would you want to?

Helicopters on the other hand.........

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I really don't think the tank thing should be a major factor.
A400M is probably going to take a fair while. C17's, C130J's and C27J's I say :E

[Point0Five]

Come on PAF, you've forgotten the mighty H!!!

I say that we should re-engine them.....

[Trash Hauler]

The Poms are selling their stubby J models. I wouldn't be surprised if Australia buys them and parks the H models. After all the H models are 28 years old.

[DeBurcs]

Does the A400 have a fold-out table for your lunch or the Loadmonster/hosty to sit on.....

[Point0Five]

That's just silly, the loadmaster is a hosty!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

The Poms are selling their stubby J models. I wouldn't be surprised if Australia buys them and parks the H models. After all the H models are 28 years old. That is an ideal situation. Would add immense flexibility to have a common fleet of hercs at both 36 and 37, in terms of aircrew training and scheduling, parts, economies of scale. However I think Shep's too busy eying off his JSF's and tankers :p

[Point0Five]

Stop eyeing off the facts, it's far more fun to protect personal interests.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

C17 Max payload 170900lbs
M1A2 Abrams 139080lbs (69.54 tons)

C17 range with 130000lb payload ~5200nm
range with 160000lb payload ~2400nm

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/armored_vehicles/tank/abrams/web_gallery/images/abrams_017.jpg

But... using aircraft is not an efficient method of getting MBTs to the battlefield. The Navy's planned multi-purpose amphibious ships are...

The C17's large hold is also very good for hosting airshow parties:ok:

[MarkD]

no new C17s beyond 2008 - Flight

http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/12/21/Navigation/177/203643/USAF+strategy+deals+Boeing+double+blow.html