Why are people leaving in droves ?

[Jambo Jet]

I put this initially on the "Exit Levels?" Thread but in the end it was just a rant, not really applicable to that thread so ...

.... Why are people leaving in droves ?


I think you will find that there are many reasons why aircrew, not just pilots, are leaving at their exit points of late and it is a trend that will probably continue in the future.

The airlines have been and probably still are the attractive alternative to service life. In the past 3 years I have seen many experienced colleagues leave with nothing but rosy stories of how much greener it is in civvy street, some even leaving without a firm offer of a job but with the expectation of future employment. There have been one or two exceptions although the reasons for their lack of success may be more down to lack of a "bit of get up and go" and a false premise that the transition to civvy street will be an easy one, not needing full commitment.

There is no real pride anymore in being a service pilot. There is no drive to strive for excellence, highlighted by the appathy offered when I wanted to get my A2. Not that I needed my A2 to do my job but I felt it was a worthy qualification to get. Others could not be bothered to staff it as it was too difficult to organize.

So what will be left? Already it can be seen that all the experience has gone. There are first tourist captains now instructing! (when I was a co they were third or fourth tourists!). The current crop of copilots and captains are not getting the experience that the older generation had. The current crop are being short changed at EFT, AFT and now on the front line. It is this that is unsustainable.

This is reflected up the command chain as well. There is disgruntlement at the unfairness of the CS and the PA streams. Why remain keen for promotion when you are going to to get paid less by staying on a career track?

The new pension scheme and the narrow timespan allowed to decide whether to accept new terms can only push uncertain individuals to go. How can any 30 year old know what his circumstances will be at his 38 yr point, or his 40 yr point if he is now on a SSC?

Finally, and I know it has all been said before many times throughout this forum, who is going to have to sort all this mayhem out? It will be the individuals that elect to stay. Staying in will not be the coushy option that so many in the past expected it to be. The weight of captains responsibility is only going to get heavier, the expectation will be immense. In only 5 yrs time it will be those first tourists who are not getting the grounding they deserve now, who will be having to make the same decisions as the rest of us.

It would be nice if it were a more difficult choice than it is just now

[BEagle]

At the risk of being accused (yet again) of being a boring old dinosaur, perhaps it would be appropriate to compare the way the RAF did business 10 years ago compared with the 'just about good enough - it'll do' mentality of today.

I was once at one of Sir John Allison's excellent Waddington chats some years ago. When a chum (now flying for Virgin) told him that the reason he was leaving was that we'd been told that we were no longer to train for excellence, merely for adequacy, Sir John said that was nonsense and asked where it came from.

"Wg Cdr 38 Gp STANEVAL" came the answer......

I was considering going for an A1 QFI Cat and 'A' Cat in AT, but became so disillusioned that instead I took the pins out of the black-and-yellow, before giving it a good hard pull some months later.

[rudolf]

Left six months ago.

Work less hours, get paid more, fly more.

Yes the flying isn't as much fun but other elements of the job are enjoyable.

Stress levels have fallen through the floor!

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

People are leaving in droves, because they are fed up of being in Basrah, fed up of being herded to/from Basrah 4 times a year, and can see no end in sight.

I don't think things will improve either. Certainly for the AT (my) fleet, the current op tempo is here to stay.

P.S. 3 1/2 weeks to do!!!

[The English Passenger]

As someone with 4 years left to his 38 point, having been on the front line without a break since finishing flying training, I can only agree with all the above.

I have loved my time in the RAF, even the bad times often. But the going away (even to Basrah for 4 months every year), is not what is going to make me almost certainly leave at my exit date. The main driver for me to leave is the lack of trust that i have in the heirarchy any more, be it their Air-Ships all the way down to Sqn Ldr level on the Sqn. Some people are still trying incredibly hard to keep the Sqns running and the people happy, but they are being foiled at almost every turn by the Arse-licking Chimps that got promoted not for flying ability or any competency at leadership (remember that?), but by jumping through the correct hoops of secondary duties/management speak and shafting others for their own benefit. They have continued to shaft others since, due to lack of ability to do the jobs that they have been promoted into, or sheer determination to jump up to the next level again.

We are in situations across the RAF, not just in my fleet, where there is no experience left on the frontline other than the odd PA Sqn Ldr in their 50s who are all coming up to retirement in the next few years and are irreplaceable. Not only that but we seem to have reached a crisis of trust in the RAF in a downwards sense. Who else can remember being a first tourist aircraft captain and being trusted to take an aircraft and crew off to some other part of the continent without having to take an exec with you to hold your hand. Even the experienced aviators amongst us are questioned at every turn about every decision...Why did you land early?, why did you dump fuel? etc. etc.

Anyway, enough of a rant from me, someone elses turn I think, anyway I will leave you with a quote from General George C Marshall (I believe it was him , but may be wrong)......

"The quickest way to lose the trust of your subordinates is not to trust them in the first place"

:sad:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

P-T-G,

Off anywhere nice, not been keeping the stats up for the last 2 days have we:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SmilingKnifed]

I've nothing like the experience level of the above posters, but I must agree with Jambo's comments regarding training.

Having been chopped in the advanced stages of AFT (METS) I felt like an absolute failure. Having since done the ATPL theory and nearly finished the course (having accepted a job starting in the spring) I actually feel that I have the required professional knowledge to make a decent start to my career and progress further in the future. I definitely agree with comments regarding short changing of studes having seen how the civvies do it.

[Onan the Clumsy]

It's the same reason there aren't anywhere near as many cowboys here in Texas anymore. They left in droves too.

:ugh:

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Ref P-T-G

Damn you ABIW......you beat me to it!!!

Later...SFS:cool:

[Talking Radalt]

For me, the reason to leave come the day (not long now, whoo hoo!) is the relentless and unstoppable decay in the value of what the MOD tries to tell us is it's greatest asset:

People.

We squander literally HUNDREDS of useful COSTED manhours ticking boxes drawn up by accountants, management consultants and H&S twerps who have never seen an aeroplane. As a result the workforce is becoming tired, bored and disillusioned, since there seems to be an all-time low in common sense being applied to how we go about business.
By way of example, for the record IRT, IDT, CCS and every other type of pre-Det training (short of talking one's way out of a prime time slot on Al Jazeera) are ALL THE BLOODY SAME.
They do not equip us with genuine skills to survive a det in a land of sand, they merely provide an umbrella for those in high places who, in the event of a tragic "accident" can claim at the subsequent press conference that we were trained to the highest standards.

And that's just one example of how we have a "shut up and put up" culture, something which in itself further degrades any feeling of worth amongst those in uniform.

Added to that, the civvies who replaced our redundant colleagues do a generally worse job and seem to demand more respect than the Staish and, for example, have their own parking spaces right outside their office window whilst the livers-in can go whistle if they even so much as think about bringing a vehicle on to camp. Give RAF stations back to the people who live and work there, and remind the "Mrs Warrant-Officers" of this world they are paid to assist and support us, not the other way round.

And don't get me started about the tail-wagging-dog situation regards low key but essential services such as MT, supply and catering. If I see one more "Opening Times" or "Closed for lunch" sign on the door of a section, I'll hang one on the sodding aircraft next time we go flying.

Furthermore will someone in MOD please wake up to the fact that the centuries-old concept of the military actually enjoying living in harsh conditions in mouldy Nissan huts with the added embuggerance of long travelling times (yet more squandered manhours!) went down on the Titanic. Stop telling us how lucky we are to live in condemned slums with school dinners on the menu.

"The job of the RAF is to fly........etc"

Ahhhhh! That's better!

[The Helpful Stacker]

And don't get me started about the tail-wagging-dog situation regards low key but essential services such as MT, supply and catering. If I see one more "Opening Times" or "Closed for lunch" sign on the door of a section...

I only know of two 'Supply' sections (its called Resource Management Squadron now days for some reason) that have strict opening times and lunch times at my unit and they are Clothing Stores and Barrack Stores, places that have had restricted hours of opening since approximately 1st April 1918. Everywhere else tries its best to be open during the busiest hours (with a duty crew for out of hours) but being humans we require sustenance, the use of the conveniences and sleep occasionally, just like the god-like folk on the line. ;)

Yes in a perfect world we'd have a 24hr service for everything, but in these LEAN times when the civilian bean counters and 'productivity specialists' come a knocking we have enough problems justifying the essentials to them and their sell out chums in blue/grey trousers, let alone the non-essentials.

I spent a very interesting 40 minutes with the station LEAN adviser, fending off his proposals for further cuts (oops, LEAN isn't about cuts.....) to the staffing levels in my section whilst increasing workloads. His justification that these principles work in the civilian sector (he often quotes Honda) have no relevance to the way the RAF operates. A car production line is predictable, bits come in car goes out over and over again. Its not often a car manufacturer will be faced with having to move half their production line and personnel to Afghanistan whilst also increasing the work tempo for that half and still support it from the factory in the UK. How the execs on the station don't see that this LEAN man spends every waking hour on the unit justifying his jobs and taking credit for changes implemented before he arrived, just given a new catchy name under him is beyond me.

Ah well, as long as the lads on the squadron have time to play table tennis whilst the few lads in Supply are running around like blue ar$ed flies trying to deliver parts to the squadrons everything must be working fine....

:(

2007 can't come soon enough...

[Onan the Clumsy]

**** Honda anyway. You know, the more I read (on here) about the military, the more it seems like the corpoprate world :yuk:

That might not be a bad thing though because the corporate world is probably more vicious and destructive than the military can ever be :{

I worked at one place where management insisted on callinmg themselves "Leadership". I didn't do myself any favours by pointing out that Spartacus was a leader, Churchill too and Eisenhower, but not them. The day one of us would step forward and say "No I am Spartacus" was the day they could call themselves leaders. :yuk:

Can you tell I've been drinking?

[FJJP]

My last tour was one of my best. Although on the ground, I had a great bunch of Execs who respected my years of experience. Introduced to the new Staish as 'The Man Who Can' I felt 10 feet tall. A year before my retirement date I asked Binnsworth if they were going to offer me any kind of extension. My poster nearly bit my hand off and pencilled me in to remain in the post. I had my teeth into developing op support for a fast jet fleet and I was making real progress.

Then I got the word that the Ops Support Branch wanted my post. Despite OC Ops and the Staish fighting to keep me, the new gutless Binnsworth rep refused to support the case so I left.

I miss the flying and the people. However, it was as well I left when I did - the possibility of my having a nervous breakdown or committing murder would have increased by the day...

Sometimes the grass is not greener, but on balance I've 'got a life' and not driven by morons trying to apply civilian rules to a fighting force.

As for putting our guys on trial whilst letting NI terrorists off scot free - just don't get me started.

[insty66]

Talking Radalt.

Top post :ok: that pretty well sums it up for me.

THS

Posting stuff like "Ah well, as long as the lads on the squadron have time to play table tennis whilst the few lads in Supply are running around like blue ar$ed flies trying to deliver parts to the squadrons everything must be working fine...." Will not endear you to anyone.
Why do we continually have to dig at each other when the targets of our sniping and vitriol are currently looking at ever more daft ideas for saving money? :yuk:

[southside]

Yeah - Good post Radalt.

It must be an RAF thing thougfh as in the RN people are not leaving in Droves. In fact the exit numbers are pretty constant, the same thay have always been. So, whats the difference?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Posting stuff like "Ah well, as long as the lads on the squadron have time to play table tennis whilst the few lads in Supply are running around like blue ar$ed flies trying to deliver parts to the squadrons everything must be working fine...." Will not endear you to anyone.

Insty66 - I'm not taking potshots at the lads on the squadrons, I'm bemoaning the inadequacies brought about through the LEAN process.

Perversely the amount of time spent playing table tennis has been forced upon them by the LEAN process. Personnel on squadrons are no longer allowed to do 'collects' because that removes them from their primary duty (a big no-no under LEAN). The fact that whilst waiting for the 'blue ar$ed flies' to deliver that workstop part they have little to do other than pop over to supply to pick it up in person has been lost to 'productivity specialists'.

Speaking to the engineers on squadrons many of them would rather have the option to pick up a part but since their squadron runner has often been LEANed off them to they don't have the option.

[The Swinging Monkey]

In my case, I got thoroughly pi$$ed off with the Air Farce no longer being run by Flt Cdrs and sqn cdrs, but by Scribblies, medics, rocks, PTI's - infact it is run by everyone at the very very blunt end!

I saw the proffessionalism of Corporate and the way everyone pulled together, but since then it has been a pretty rapid decline.

GW1 saw the start of it, when (quite rightly) the rocks got involved in chemical warfare instruction. Before then we had just been playing at it. Now, its gone beyond a joke........

a medic decides if you are well enough to go to theatre in the few weeks leading up to a deployment

a PTI decides if you are fit enough to go aswell

As if that wasn't enough, the rocks and PTIs get together and insist that you take your tent and go and live over the other side of the airfielkd before you deploy.

The fact is that ALL aircrew (maybe a few FC and ATs excepted) do several, fully recognised, real-life survival exercises. Why do we need all this extra bull$hit - the answer is simple, the airships from Sqn Cdr upwards, don't have the balls to question it.

A Flt Cdr, Sqn Cdr or Stn Cdr isn't deciding who will and will not go to war these days; - it's a little cpl PTI, or a rock or a medic or some other blunty person.

I'm afraid that it all got too difficult in my case. I was quite happy to deploy for 6 - 8 weeks at a time, living in sh1t conditions etc, but I could no longer stand returning from a no-notice 6 week deployment in the sand pit, to be greeted by an orderly officer the day after I got back 'cos "you haven't done one for a few weeks Sir!" together with a hat-on bollocking 'cos my aft expired whilst I was having fun in the sand.

God knows where it will end, but end it must do soon.
Now as a civvie, I fly a little less but the quality of my life has shot thru' the roof! I'm not sure if I'm better off financially, but I haven't noticed any change so I dont really care.

RIP RAF

Kind regards
TSM

ps - just a quickie about the ground crew - respect to all you guys and girls, I know how much you are hurting also. How you are managing is beyond me and only goes to prove that the Air Farce is totally reliant on the good will of its' servicemen and women at the shap end.

pps Why are there always so many resident people in SHQ?

[6Z3]

Southside,

Don't be fooled by your stats sheet. The underlying problems are the same in the crewrooms around the RN, ie they're empty. They're all doing their tickets. Once you see them on the exit stats and the recruiters start to react to the problem, you'll be witnessing the same old 10 year supply/demand cycle in action.

Of course the answer is a new management strategy to replace last year's IIHR (Investors in Human Resources) fad.

[BEagle]

Are they still intending to introduce that manual labourers' skill test to add to the joys of CCS, IRT, IDT etc etc?

Once upon a time we just had a day's GDT and an Annual Medical each year. I don't remember people dropping like flies during all those Minevals, Maxevals and Tacevals we had back then.

But, of course, the difference was we were in the RAF then, rather than playing pongos.

The RAF of today has 3.75% of the people it had at its peak WW2 strength. Just how small is it going to get in the future?

Still, the airlines are getting busier. Even though it's little more than being locked in a cupboard with a stranger for a couple of hours at a time, 4-5 times per day 5 days per week, at least people know why they're there doing the job they do. And their aircraft aren't museum relics either.

[JessTheDog]

The enormous disconnect between reality and the decision-making process did it for me. I was simply fed up at being angry every day, and also concerned about the impact that cost-cutting would have on the meagre family life we were allowed to enjoy.

That, and an illegal war, pushed me to fill in the PVR form. Although I didn't mention the war as my unit had guys (and girls) out there at the time...except when very drunk, and the unfolding soapbox could be brought out in the Mess!

[sarmonkey]

It took an unusually long time for the predictable "well nobody wants to leave the RN" to appear....

The thing that will mean I leave at my option is a career of watching the honest gifted leaders leave and of seeing chiselling non-achievers administrate their way into Flt and Sqn Cdr slots.

(No bitterness here - I don't fall into either category)

As for other rants, can I also offer the (slightly old but still valid) experience of telling your subordinates that they will be working long shifts to cover striking firemen that already get paid more than them, whilst using out of date kit; oh, and when they get back, they're off to Basrah for 4 months.

And let's not forget the pleasure involved in watching a civvie company get 3 grand a day for arsing everyone around for a week, telling you tidy up your hangar and call it 'leaning'.

Like many contributors, I've loved my time in and loved the contribution I've managed to make in my small way, but there comes a time when the 2-way loyalty becomes distinctly uni-directional....

[Magp1e]

What's the problem?.....It is that there is no fat in the system.
I enlisted in 1978, RAF strength @ 103,000. In addition to my primary duty I also played Station and Command sport, went on expeds, completed education and service courses. All these things developed my fitness, my teamwork and leadership skills and prepared me to be a better serviceman. These things tended to develop an esprite de corps and pride of service and gave us "tools" that we could use in our primary role.

Today, because we are so thin on the ground, it is rare that individuals can be spared from the Sqn to attend any character building activity. We arrive on duty complete our nine hour shift, spend an hour or two on secondary duties, try to get to the Gym for an hour and then retire home ready for the next day.

Sometimes my working day is extended because the efficient RAF supplier/caterer/engineer has been replaced by some left-wing unionist civvy who couldn't possibly provide service during his tea break..2 mins past 5 o clock (etc etc).

I'm also doing more jobs on Station because there are fewer "blue suits" to go around. I must provide airmen for the Station Guard force and at the same time, adhere to the European Working Time directive!! additionally I am to ensure that I keep fit, take my full leave entitlement, be fully up to date with CCS, IDS, EO briefs....you get the picture.

For me the biggest change over the years is that the Armed Forces is no longer a way of life, it's become just another job. everthing that allowed us to become unique specific to our role, and produced unique individuals has been gradually ground away. Don't get me wrong, individuals joining today are of no less quality than say 15 years ago, but the opportunities for them to demonstrate their talents have been massively eroded.

Ahhhh...that feels better. Chest much lighter.

[Talking Radalt]

Helpful Stacker....
Opening hours for stores etc.
What's so difficult about staggering lunch breaks etc in order that some level of service can be maintained over traditional "lunch hours"?
And besides, I agree clothing stores etc have always had limited hours, but nowadays everywhere has jumped on the EU working practice bandwagon (assuming the request for a bandwagon was submitted to MT not less than 36 hours in advance, in triplicate and isn't required outside normal working hours or at weekends).
I need a new ID photo, so that's Wednesdays between 10:00 and 11:00...... ONLY
New car pass? Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday between 10:00 and midday, assuming the ONE civilian who apparently owns all the car pass IT hardware isn't on leave.
Fitness test? Thursday, 11am, no negotiation.
And so on.


There's more flex on a Pifco travel kettle.
It's why I've now adopted a strict 9-5 attitude myself with my own personal "Hour off in lieu for every hour past five" regime.

[Twonston Pickle]

Magp1e,

Couldn't agree more but then a politician understands little about military ethos and REAL effectiveness and efficiency.

I have just checked my outstanding leave balance and have 18 days to take between 4 Jan 06 and 28 Feb 06; having checked my diary and spoke to the Boss, I cannot use it so I will only have had 2 and a bit weeks off all year. This might be acceptable as a one-off or with the knowledge that I will be able to take the 45 days I will have next year but Septic Peg predictions are for more of the same. When does it stop? Probably when I break! Oh, and don't anybody try with the manage it more effectively cr@p, that is what both the Boss and I have been trying to do.

Back to the thread, TR has hit the nail on the head with regard to the symptoms but I think we are all struggling for a solution. One thing is alomost certain, cuts in military manpower will not increase "efficiency", no matter how you label it.

[ShyTorque]

Those thinking the 9 hour shift followed by a one hour secondary duty is tough going might like to reflect on the 14 hour working day target some of us are "enjoying" outside. Social life non-existent and not so much leave either ;)

[RileyDove]

I think in nearly ten years since I have left the RAF has probably tried to re-align itself too much with business procedures and got away from what it is - a military force. I probably work a lot harder than I did in the RAF now -however I always get thanks for what I do and possibly a little respect from customers and our dealer network.
This I feel is possibly lacking in the RAF -there seems to be a clamour to get rid of the engineering talent as soon as they get into a position where they can make a real difference.
I am sure the highways of Great Britain is now getting clogged with ex CT's and Sergeants who have very much done their bit but have tired of the ceaseless penny pinching and doing more with less. Certainly there was 'fat' to get rid of in the system but why completely bizarre base closures like Finningley
which filled many purposes and keep tiny little airfields of little
use. Maybe a general distrust of the higher echelons with their ability to move sideways rather than join the job centre queues
has done serious damage to morale - maybe the barber's phrase 'would you like a little more off the top ' is something the
RAF needs to embrace !

[The Gorilla]

Shy

You are in the wrong job matey!! 34 Hour week for some of us from next march..
:p

[southside]

Exactly, Bring it on. We love the Core Working week. 34 hrs and thats the lot......Yippeeeeeee

[BEagle]

So what will you do with the rest of your time? Take turns in the barrel or practice knot tying?

6Z3 is in the right place to know exactly how things are looking for the grey funnel line's fliers.

[Melchett01]

What's the problem?

Try a permanent 55-60 hr week, every week, doing your own duties plus covering 2 other posts, with no recognition of what you are doing, and on occassions a bare acknowledgement of your existance from the execs who only want to know when you're needed to do something they can't be bothered to do or to get them out of the brown and smelly. On top of that, try being told you aren't doing enough secondary duties, because the Boss doesn't like the ones you do, although there's no one else to do them. And don't even get me started about PMA and career management.

Try the tail permanently wagging the dog. CIS Eng monkeys whose job it is to make your job harder by not giving you the kit you need to carry out your role or stores that store rather than issue. Admin for admins sake and the 'sh*t floats' theory of the decent guys leaving and the dross getting promoted to re-enforce the system as it stands. It's the week before Christmas and I still have 30 days leave to somehow fit in ...... fat chance. But I'll no doubt tbe told it's my own fault by some chiseller in Handbrake House who's concept of going on ops is to do their CCS once every 2 years.

And you know it's all gone horribly wrong when you'd rather be on ops because life in Iraq is easier than life on the unit in the UK. How screwed up is that?!

And that in a nut shell is why I'll be taking my next option!

[Widger]

Guys, girls,

The people you should be moaning at are your Personnel Liaison Team. I have said it before. Ask them why you do not have this?

Click here and select personnel functional standards (http://www.rncom.mod.uk/ref_library/index.cfm)




I recommend that you read the foreword by 1SL. I am sure that the regulations within this document probably apply to the RAF as well but, they are sitting in some draw gathering dust. Get such a document produced and then you can report deficiencies to the highest level.

[Twonston Pickle]

Couldn't agree with Melchett more about prefering being on Ops to life on a Stn - less working hours for a start! Maybe that's what the politicians intended, hoping that we would all be so grateful to do more ops; how about extending OOAs to 6 months or more anybody?

[The Helpful Stacker]

People keep going on about "tail wagging the dog" so here's a question for you 'knowledgeable' types, where exactly in your ever so humble opinions does the tail start and the dog begin?

My starter for one; the dog is the infantry, everything else is tail.

Obviously being ex-Infantry myself I could be a little biased....

[Talking Radalt]

Well, how about:
"Hello tanker pool, can we have a bowser and some fuel please so we tail enders can go and be wagged by some infantry dog-types please? What's that? Not until after the (only) bowser driver is back from his fitness test?"
Thinks: Never mind, I'll order the rations instead.
"Hello JRM, four x 8-hour flying rations please. No I didn't order them last night. Why not? Well the task has only just been generated. But we've assembled a crew and generated an aircraft, can't you even throw some choccy bars and pop in a box for us to graze on during the trip? What's that? That'd mean Chef working past 9pm, oh ok we'll go without"

:hmm:

[Onan the Clumsy]

My starter for one; the dog is the infantry, everything else is tail.

http://www.petfinder.com/fotos/TX106/TX106.5476565-2-pn.jpg

:E

[Talking Radalt]

An infanteer is for life, not just for Christmas ;)

[BATS]

Widger

PFS is a good effort by the RN to ensure the wellbeing and development of it's personnel; TOPMAST too, is another good idea. Sadly, the RAF is not enlightened enough, or possibly too scared of the ramifications, to publish such a document...... It would cause consternation in the AT, ISR and SH fleets and probably in 'handbrake houses' where it would have to managed and reported against. Actually telling personnel their entitlements and what they can expect would never catch on....... For years there have been 2 parts to the RAF; those who enjoy the full benefits of service life with none of those irksome things like deployments and wars and then there is the rest of the service.

Jack and Jill enjoy the support of their seniors in the form of PFS and it's about time the RAF did something similar. If nothing else it would give some missed targets to report every month.......

[The Helpful Stacker]

"Hello tanker pool, can we have a bowser and some fuel please so we tail enders can go and be wagged by some infantry dog-types please? What's that? Not until after the (only) bowser driver is back from his fitness test?"

Hardly a case of tail wagging dog is it? If tanker pool only had one bowser operator you could hardly expect him/her to be on shift 24hrs a day. A case like that would be more indicative of the cutbacks in the Armed Forces affecting ability to carry out primary duties rather than the inconvenience of having to do an AFT.

"Hello JRM, four x 8-hour flying rations please. No I didn't order them last night. Why not? Well the task has only just been generated. But we've assembled a crew and generated an aircraft, can't you even throw some choccy bars and pop in a box for us to graze on during the trip? What's that? That'd mean Chef working past 9pm, oh ok we'll go without"

I'll give you that one though.;) If a scenario such as that did happen it would call into question the lack of duty cover.


Going back to an earlier point about clothing stores etc, Supply Squadrons have duty personnel to cover such things as states for a/c parts etc but clothing is very rarely a priority. People should organise their lives a bit better and not try blaming a section such as clothing stores for having restricted opening hours.

An example I remember of late was an officer who had put his No.5 uniform in for tailoring but couldn't be bothered to take 5 minutes out of his busy life to collect it during opening hours. As a result he called out the duty supplier in an attempt to get his uniform on the Saturday afternoon before a mess function. When informed this (junior) officer could poke it (but in a more polite manner) he threatened to charge the hapless SAC, who had more pressing issues (no pun intended) running around like a man possessed fulfilling P and D states. Needless to say the threatened charge went nowhere and an ever so slightly humbled officer was advised to apologise to said stacker the following week.

Now why do I tell you this? Well unfortunately it seems that more and more now days poor admin by personnel is blamed on others rather than accepted as their very own little **** up, and usually its the people who are apparently the furthest from the sharp end that get the most stick from those at said sharp end. In part some of this is LEAN related (LEAN seems to be official sanctioning for slopey shoulders) but much is just down to the "oh I'm so very important" attitude that is appearing in those that really aren't (like a certain CT who chewed out one of my Fwd Del lads for delivering a part that the CT had demanded incorrectly).

Anyway, I know this slice of home truth will probably get the usual hostile reception from the line-Gods and wondermen/women in grow bags who can do no wrong but as us blunties are used to taking the flak for your poor admin I'm well used to it.

:rolleyes:

[NR DROOP]

Things are not as rosey in th RN as southside suggests !

[LFFC]

I think we all spotted Southside a long time ago!

[RichiePAO]

This all sounds familiar in my job - The Police service. Moral rock bottom, no experienced officers or supervisors in the front line and bloody civvies with not a single idea about the work we do attempting to manage/tick boxes/count stats/check our work.
I am a sergeant looking after a shift of uniform officers covering a town with a population of in excess of 130000 good people. At 1000pm yesterday I briefed a grand total of four officers that were the night shift for that town. A year ago it would have been up to 14 officers. I just keep my fingers crossed that tonight we do not have a bar-b-q at a fuel depot!
The plus side is that with such few officers it makes annual appraisals very easy!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Southsh1te posting bolleaux, surely not:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol indeuced

[Roghead]

What desperately sad reading. Given, the number of people responding is but a drop in the ocean, and we are always far better at moaning than praising, but surely there must be someone out there who believes that the positives of Service life outweigh the negatives? Please someone, restore my faith in the Military.
So, I joined in the early 60's, and essentially enjoyed the next 19 years, and was fortunate to spend time as a "mercenery" in SOAF, and got back in the bang seat as a civvie for a few years after that.
Times change and it's easy for old gits like me to say that yesterday was better. I don't buy that.... it was different thats all.
If what has been written so far is a fair synopsis then I'm not surprised that many are leaving. However I do believe that todays youngsters, and that includes their senior officers, are made of sterner stuff than has been portrayed so far.I do not want to accept that they are all throwing in their towells to the incompetant civvie administators, civil servants and pathetic politicians who haunt MoD and Westminster.
:ugh:

[bowly]

Roghead,

Sadly, I fear you joined when things really were better. That said, youngsters joining today will not know any different so, one assumes they will be happier with their lot.......hence the droves leaving at a later stage. Only my thoughts though. I too, would love to see if anyone was 'loving it'.:confused:

[soddim]

Have to say I saw the writing on the wall back in the late 70s when the retention rate was awful - problem was that all the good guys were leaving and all the bad guys were getting promoted. Problem seems to be repeated today - quite possibly because all the dross that got promoted in the late 70s reached the top of the pile and, in turn, promoted people in their own image.

So how do you change it - certainly not by leaving. It probably takes more balls to stay and work on the problem than to leave it but how many people can do that?

[LFFC]

soddim

You're right - few people have the balls to stay just to try and make a difference. However, I'm told that if you do stick your head above the parapet these days, you just get poo-pooed by someone more senior.

The temptation is then really strong to try and poo-poo their poo-poo - and we all know where that leads!

[jayteeto]

As I have said many times before, I left 2 years ago because I didn't trust TrustmeTony with my life. That said, I remember in the 80s, everyone used to say that we can't sustain things and it was all about to go wrong, it didn't. In the 90s, everyone used to say that we can't sustain things and it was all about to go wrong, it didn't. Now people are saying that we can't sustain things and it is all about to go wrong......
The military will survive, it has been like this for centuries, with people coming second to the task. You will leave, you will think that it will be difficult to replace you. But they will do it and a new man will start basic training to be on the bottom rung, moving everyone else up one rung.
Fortunately, you people now, along with us old fogies will give outstanding loyalty and get the job done. We are our own worst enemies. But I bet that very few of you would let things go wrong on purpose, that is why you are there, because of that attitude, professionalism and grit. Make the most of NOW because you will miss it when you leave. Well, at least a little bit!! ;)

[Bob Viking]

You miserable bunch.
Am I really going to be the only person to say I'm enjoying it?!
Maybe I'm just one of the lucky few but, despite a few minor grumbles (with admin issues ie housing being the main one - but thats my problem!) I couldn't be happier.
Of course we all whinge from time to time but I'm more than happy with my lot. Of course the flying helps!
BV:ok:

[seven4mankind]

Swinging Monkey,

Just logged in... although I agree with your ethic, it really isn't the fault of the docs and the gym boys. In my experience, they work bloody hard to keep us where we want to be, within their remit.
I've never had a problem with bloody great doctors and support staff in my career - that's not the reason I'll be out at 38.

It's that there is absolutely no-one I want to be in 10yrs time.

And that is terribly sad.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"It's that there is absolutely no-one I want to be in 10yrs time."

What a cracking anology:ok:

After 31 years service I can happily look my self in the mirror each morning safe in the knowledge I have never once screwed any one over, how many of our current middle and senior management have the same luxury :}

all spelling mistakes are "df' alcohol induced

[Magp1e]

ok, I said nine hours....the point is some days 7 hours , some days 15....additionally secondary duties, station duties, standby hours..blah blah....I've had one free weekend in five.

thepoint I was making is that too few of us to go around AND still do the jobs (if not more) that we were doing a few years back.

I'm not whinging though:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

[FJJP]

Only once in nearly 40 years of service did I witness handbrake house get the jitters. At a base in Lincolnshire, where the Sqns had continuous op detachments overseas, claims were taking 6 weeks to process to completion. When it got to 8 weeks the troops started to grumble and the Sqn bosses brought it up at execs.

OC Admin went totally defensive [he was a knobber anyway] and made all the excuses under the sun - finally coming up with 'there are only so many hours in the day and so many hands per person'.

The Staish was a good guy and totally focused on the raison d'etre for the existance if the base - he announced that handbrake house would work weekends from now on until the backlog was cleared and claims were to be processed within a week. It took them 4 weekends to catch up, after which claims were paid within 5 working days.

But people like that are so few and far between these days - career officers seem to be totally focused on their own careers to bother much about what is going on around them...

[BEagle]

I think it was at RAF Brawdy (or it might have been the re-opened RAF Chivenor) where the admin mates, knowing how busy we were during the day, used to send a chap round to the flying squadrons to sort out travel claims. Which were settled in around 24 hours......in cash, not just BACS.

Bluntness is a mindset, not a branch!

Sometimes it's not the admin folks fault, but some faceless bureaucrat. There was a chaotic period once when mileage rates were amended retrospectively; the acker-bashers had to go back several months, check every claim and issue additional payments. It was evening and weekend working until they caught up....

Brawdy, Chivenor - them were 't days. Sorry, but they really were!

[Shot to the Beach]

Perhaps another reason people enjoyed life in the mob more back in the day, was because there was a real threat to the UK and we were all happy to be involved to do our part. Minor buggerances could be happily overlooked safe in the knowledge that you were doing your bit to protect our green and pleasant land. Fast forward 20+ years and the same reasoning falls apart as we're now part of 'Team UK - World Police'.

[BEagle]

And who coined the daft term 'agile air force'?

I joined to defend the UK - and if that meant threatening Ivan with a bucket of sun if he ever got uppity, then so be it.

But tramping round the world every time the poodle licks the chimp's bottom - I don't think so.....

On another thread, someone posted "Even more scary is that out of the 160 odd countries in the world the USA has a military presence in 142.

Any clues to the Spam-free zones?

[Trooping]

Well, if you cant handle the pressure of all the deployments, the exciting flying, the chance to actually do your job then join the Australian Army Aviation Corps....

You'll go nowhere, fly the same old boring ****e day after day, deal with idiots who think they know about war (but have never been anywhere beyond the local training area) and work with aircraft that are so old and useless it would make our forefathers turn in their graves.

My point - consider yourselfs lucky your actually in a military that does its job.

Trooping.

[Talking Radalt]

A case like that would be more indicative of the cutbacks in the Armed Forces affecting ability to carry out primary duties rather than the inconvenience of having to do an AFT.
And that, HS, was my whole point. Those few who are left to do the work are having their day further eroded by non-trade $hite dreamt up by box tickers.

I remember in the 80s, everyone used to say that we can't sustain things and it was all about to go wrong, it didn't. In the 90s, everyone used to say that we can't sustain things and it was all about to go wrong, it didn't
Maybe we couldn't sustain things, and things did go wrong, just no one cared/noticed/bothered to learn from it? Just because "it's always been like that" doesn't make it right.

[BigginAgain]

Rant on

Because having worked my bits off all week, I get back to a freezing cold FQ to find a pay statement that some @rsehole has screwed-up leaving me £250 worse-off than I should be - to make matters worse, the whole thing is unintelligible. Can't fault the timing!

Now I will be working throughout Xmas, as I have for the last several years, and I know that when I go into PSF on Monday, if there's anyone there at all, the best I can hope for is platitudes, because it is bound to be too late to do anything about it ... w@nkers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This post is alcohol free ... good job!

Rant off

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Today I have just paid the RAF £10 for the privelige of using an empty sim slot to raise money for Children in Need.

When the Chief Beancounter told me that I would have to pay for the use of the sim, I laughed at first, but when I realised she was serious, I was dumbstruck that the RAF would "steal" a tenner from charity.

I hope she reads this and is thoroughly ashamed of herself.

Another great reason why 13 Jan 06 can't come soon enough.

P.S. BA not PA, you know it makes sense!!

[SmilingKnifed]

But tramping round the world every time the poodle licks the chimp's bottom - I don't think so.....


Priceless!:ok:

[Biggus]

Have we actually established that people are leaving in droves, or is it just that we all know somebody who has left, or is just about to leave, as a result of disatisfaction with their lot?

Not trying to defend the current state of affairs, or disagree with anything written here, just asking what the actual numbers, percentages are at the moment?



Southside

Much as I hate to rise to your bait, I hope the RN are all getting a pay cut to go along with their 34hr week! I can just about achieve that in 2 good days effort, as I am sure many in the RAF and Army (and probably the RN too) can/do on a regular basis. The last time I spoke to Navy Lynx driver he called us all 'poofs' (you were allowed to use that word in the days before PC took over the word) for having crew duty rules which limited our days to a mere 16-18 hours!

As for flying hours per month as indicated by logbooks entries now vs 1983, or whenever, that is not the only indication of workload. I am probably getting less hours per month now than 10 years or more ago, but I am working harder, am more stressed and fatigued, and see less of my family. The amount of non flying related stuff which effects our lives has gone up dramatically, to the extent a trip is almost an inconvienience to be got out of the way as quickly as possible as it gets in the way of getting through all the niff-naff that occupies your time!

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

These are unofficial figures from lyneham, based on personal experience.

In the region of 20 captains have left to the airlines in the last year.

The last 3 C-130J OCU bosses (Sqn Ldr) have all left the post straight to an airline(within the last 3 years). The Sqn Boss has just taken his option to go to the airlines.

Line pilots are plotting their way to 1000 hrs PIC for the freebie ATPL, or doing all the exams.

Of the 4 or 5 guys I know offered PA, only 1 is considering taking it.

Crewroom chat is nearly always about ATPL's, interviews and jobs.

I guess the answer is that yes, they are leaving in droves, at least from my place.

[Magp1e]

My Branch (not that big). 7 x Sqn Ldr; on learning that they had not been picked up for redundancy have slapped in PVR. Last 3 FS posts (out of 4) have PVR'd. Informed this summer that we must "run light" on establishment as there is a shortage of manpower.
Some Branches are better of than others, and within Branches, some Units are better off than others. Overall though; based on 25 years + experience, these are the hardest times manpower wise that I have seen.

[Lara crofts pants]

P-T-G

Much the same on the k side of the house too old boy.
There are even people who are turning down offers of PC because they can't see any reasons to stay.
Myself, I leave in May and to be honest it can't come too soon!

[6Z3]

Actually, I expect they're all leaving to become RW and join the Lynx fleet at Yeovilton!

[Flashdance9]

Ok, i'm no expert but if loads of pilots are leaving from the top;

why is the raf not recruiting at the moment?

why are the holds in the training system lasting for an eternity?

and how is the raf going to cope when they find that in a few years time they will find it hard to recruit pilots of the highest quality, because so many young adults are now attracted to careers in the airlines, business, finance & IT; (coupled with the oncoming pilot shortage within the uk of quality and experienced pilots) -which would attract people away from both the start and ends of their raf career?!

[BEagle]

No-one will care, because the over-promoted fools who meekly accept all the dumbing-down and cut-backs without question will have achieved their targets, and will wag their poodle tails when patted on the head before receiving their next star and moving onwards and upwards.

And the resulting $hit will be some other bugger's problem to sort out.

Hasn't it always been like that? Classic short-termism with no thought for future sustainability.

Trenchard must be up to a few thousand rpm in his grave by now.

[Talking Radalt]

No-one will care, because the over-promoted fools who meekly accept all the dumbing-down and cut-backs without question will have achieved their targets, and will wag their poodle tails when patted on the head before receiving their next star and moving onwards and upwards
Hear, hear!
Absolutely bloody priceless and spot-on to boot Beags. :ok: :ok: :ok:

[insty66]

No-one will care, because the over-promoted fools who meekly accept all the dumbing-down and cut-backs without question will have achieved their targets, and will wag their poodle tails when patted on the head before receiving their next star and moving onwards and upwards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hear, hear!
Absolutely bloody priceless and spot-on to boot Beags.

I feel that is worth repeating again "the over-promoted fools":uhoh:

Hits the nail squarely on the head
:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Lafyar Cokov]

My poster recently told me to carefully consider my offer of assimilation as they are "Like Rocking Horse 5h1t".

I assume that my poster is a rocking horse - and you can guess where I'm going to push his 5h1t!!!

[Mad_Mark]

why are the holds in the training system lasting for an eternity?

Probably because there are manpower shortages. In our fleet the number of OCU instructors is down, leading to a reduced number of OCU courses per year, leading to fewer places for students each year, leading to more students having to hold pre-OCU. I would imagine that the same applies to most flying training courses for most fleets :(


why is the raf not recruiting at the moment?

See above. We don't have enough places on courses for the students already in the training system, why clog the system with even more students :confused:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Slartibardfarst]

So what about this tranche 3 malarkey then? Have been trying to get some details, but all I keep hearing from the scribblies is that applications are to be in around April, but apart from that it seems to be a bit hush-hush. Anyone got some more gen, or tell me where I can sign up!!:suspect:

[Plasticab]

Well my offer for PA runs out shortly....not thinking of staying looking at the tea leaves....there are still some top guys to work with/for, but ever fewer and more wnakers getting to the top....

[basuto72]

And another thing,

You can over-torque your knackered old chopper,

Let your IRT lapse,

Fail a fitness test,

Let your annual medical Lapse,

Fly beyond your crew duty time in-order to pick up some troops by the border who are p##s wet through,

But tell some civvy that ther are Sh#te at their job and that is the fastest way to a hats on with the wing cdr.
Not that my one did, but the ignorant irish bitch concerned in the movements cell had to be appeased with the knowlege that I had been.

and how does that work?

To those on that sqn that went into bat for me (including the wg cdr) that now know who I am, thank you for your efforts that day.

[Talking Radalt]

But tell some civvy that ther are Sh#te at their job and that is the fastest way to a hats on with the wing cdr.
Between that and Beag's "over promoted fools" quote I think we've found the source of a lot of the problems.
Once got told by a civvy in a Central Registry who'd lost a registered letter containing something as trivial as a new personal credit card with only a 10k limit (by forwarding it unregistered to a well known South Atlantic flying training area) that in future I should have important mail sent to my parents' address.
"Why? Can't you handle it here?"
"Hurrumph! I'll tell OC Admin you said that!"
"Go on then, I'll come with you and tell him you just admitted you can't do your job....eh? EHHHHHH?!!!!!"
:mad:

[A2QFI]

Beags, you are very non-PC! We don't have targets - we have Performance Indicators!

[BEagle]

Non-PC? Moi??

I've been harrassed... Group hug, group hug!

[Clockwork Mouse]

Beags,

Sorry old fellow but it gets worse. You've just been found on Mars!

[Gainesy]

we have Performance Indicators!

Would the numbers said to be leaving be a Binsworth Performance Indicator?

The Service sorely needs another civvy consultant to advise on what its getting into. You've had IIP :yuk:, H&S:yuk:, PC:yuk:, LEAN :yuk: and all the other non-Mil bollocks thrust upon you.

How about a "That's a bloody daft idea, bin it" advisor?

[BEagle]

"How about a "That's a bloody daft idea, bin it" advisor?"

On many squadrons, NCO aircrew used to provide that voice of moderation to stop daft Tigger-on-springs Flt Cdrs coming up with silly ideas!

[6Z3]

Beagle,

"...Tigger-on-springs ,,"

You've met the AC@TGDA I take it.

[adr]

Merely as a general observation, I think Prof Onora O'Neill's insights in the 2002 Reith Lectures (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2002/lectures.shtml) (well worth a read - should be compulsory, as should Sir Ernest Gower's Plain Words) may be pertinent.

When an organisation becomes morbidly obsessed with transparency, accountability, and blame avoidance, the organisation's core activities suffer (as do the people who joined it to do those core activities).

I was inspired by a tale of a Customs officer whose personal policy was to place every memo from above into a "maturing" pile. If, after three months, he'd not had a follow-up demanding to know why he hadn't acted on it, he threw it away. :ok:

adr

[BEagle]

6-weasel-3, no mate, I haven't met him. But I've met a few other Tiggers-on-springs in my time, bouncing from wall to wall to impress their bosses.

Few wise Owls though.....

[Biggus]

Can we expect a mini surge of 50+ yr olds on the PA spine to leave once we get past April, and they are safely established on the new pension system? I know some in this bracket who joined at the age of 18, and therefore have now qualified for about 50% of their pay as a pension under the new scheme!

At least one person I know in this situation is planning to leave post April!

[LFFC]

Can we expect a mini surge of 50+ yr olds on the PA spine to leave once we get past April? I'm sure that a lot of aircrew on the PAS will have realised that they can retire after April and get an Early Departure Payment that exceeds what they were expecting to get as a full pension at age 55 under the old pension scheme.

But they will also realise that by staying until age 55 they will retire with a full pension of about £32k a year - which is about £7000 a year more than that had expected under the old pension scheme. So the school's out on what the overall impact will be. Personally, I think that people will be more likely to stay until age 55 - which would mean that there would be far fewer slots available for assimilation at age 38. It's interesting to note that Binnworth seem reluctant to assimilate anyone for service beyond their 38 point at the moment - perhaps that's part of the reason.
My poster recently told me to carefully consider my offer of assimilation as they are "Like Rocking Horse 5h1t".
PS. I understand that the pilot PVR rate is now running at 3 times the normal level.

[Biggus]

LFFC

I realise, as I am sure the individuals concerned do, that by staying to 55 the final pension is larger than that received by leaving several years earlier. This thread is all about people 'leaving in droves', the reason for which all comes down to dissatisfaction, in whatever form, of their current job, conditions of service, leadership,...etc.

My point is that I know several 50+ yr old aircrew who are dissatisfied and actively considering leaving (at 50+ with your kids grown up and financial commitments reduced some guys don't want to spend 6mths every year somewhere hot and sunny being told what to do by crap leadership - disagree with that or critise them if you want, 'they took the Queen's shilling, etc' - that is a whole different debate, but some have had enough and are planning to quit, as they are perfectly entitled to do!). However, for them, waiting a few more months, until after April, can make a considerable difference financially under the new pension scheme - assuming their mind is already made up to go it is just a case of when gives them the best deal. They therefore, apart from crewroom chat/gossip, do not show up in the current numbers leaving, and will not do so for several months.

I was simply wondering how significant this group was throughout the services, as I can only comment on the small portion of the military I am exposed to, and whether we would indeed see a 'mini surge' out the doors, as I put it, after April.

[Roland Pulfrew]

To get this topic back on track how about the following:

Contractorisation

Civilianisation

Fewer uniformed personnel so duties come round more often whilst the 2 mentioned above pull the "Not my job mate" or "Not in the contract" cards

Jointery (for which read green)

"Superbases"

Sale of Married Quarters

IIP

H&SAW - IOT studes wearing gloves and helmets when constructing tripods from pine pools!!

EO

PC - rumour has it an IOT stude has complained because he was called a p**f for wearing gloves on a cold morning

Force reductions - not, as many say, because we can do more with less but because we cannot afford to keep what we have

PFIs

Reduced promotion prospects for those that want it

A bu**ered up training system when we once had one of the best

A dumbed down training system

Civilian registered aircraft

Decimation of the medical services - what IDIOT agreed to keeping that centrally located hospital at Haslar?

Operational fitness tests - a test desgined by......a rock ape without a sense of reality!!

Just a few that spring immediately to mind. Merry Christmas.

[BEagle]

Well put, Roly.

I don't know how a loyal, hard-working and enthusiastic mate like your good self can put up with all those things you list.

When some sneak leaked a private e-mail of mine in which I mentioned in passing that civil FI requirements were externally regulated by the JAA rather than being internally set to suit a budget as they seemed to be in the military, it led to a hat-on Axminster shuffle. Which made pulling the black-and-yellow even more certain for yours truly.

Getting into the dwang for telling the truth, as one NCO aircrew chum described it.

Another black-and-yellow incentive at the time was that to transfer to the PA spine and benefit from the enhanced pension was not permitted for those who, like me, had under 5 years to go to NRD. When nothing came out in the 2003 pay announcement to compensate for this, there was clearly not even a significant financial incentive to stay. Knowing that my immediate pension was going to be around 95% of that which I would receive at NRD - and facing a shrinking fun bucket and ever-filling $hit bucket, there was no real choice.

[Talking Radalt]

I mentioned in passing that civil FI requirements were externally regulated by the JAA rather than being internally set to suit a budget as they seemed to be in the military
A very valid point Beags. I've always found the self-regulating aspect of flying qualifications somewhat, shall we say, incestuous? It harks back to your over-promoted fools system. Never mind if someone can actually DO the job, as long as it LOOKS good and they're the right chap ;) for the job who won't make too much noise, what-what?

:(

PC - rumour has it an IOT stude has complained because he was called a p**f for wearing gloves on a cold morning
Oh dear oh dear oh dear.
God alone knows how folk like this are permitted to exist in a system which once offered press-ups in the snow for wearing gloves without permission :E If Diddums is reading, poke off home to mum.

[Aerospace101]

PC - rumour has it an IOT stude has complained because he was called a p**f for wearing gloves on a cold morning

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

Its exactly that mentality of Talking Radalt that undermines everything the military stands for now.

Just because you had a beasting at the start of your military career; times have changed so face the facts. Accept the PC nature of the world and get on with your job. If someone wants to wear gloves, let them. If you got a problem with it - keep your mouth shut, and dont pass derogative comments.

Whilst on this topic, the RAF and all armed forces need to step into the 21st century and change it's culture towards; bullying, harrasment, drinking..........

Airline pilots get put in jail for the smallest smell of alcohol in their breath; Why is the same not for the military?? Perhaps it is only a minority but ive seen pilots pi$$ed up till 3am; then climing into aircraft at 8am!!!

[An Teallach]

PC - rumour has it an IOT stude has complained because he was called a p**f for wearing gloves on a cold morning

And quite rightly too. In case you haven't noticed, Roland, it is now unlawful to harass someone on grounds of sexual orientation. Out in the real world, no-one would have dreamed of calling a colleague or student a 'poof' for years. It's long past time the Service grew out of the playground.

Whether this chap is or isn't gay, the temperature of his hands has sod all to do with his sexuality. The instructor will have offended him if he was straight and will have offended any gay students present.

The instructor should grow up as should anyone who finds his behaviour acceptable.

Yours,
AT
(a warm-handed poof without gloves). ;)

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1990000/images/_1991630_windsor_150.jpg

You is a poof :D

Happy Christmas everyone

[BEagle]

"You soft so-and-so" or "You big girl's blouse" would probably have been OK - but unnecessary. Whereas "You poof" obviously would quite obviously not have been.

Wearing gloves without permission? Dear me no - crucifixion for a first offence. Nail some sense into him!

Years ago in the Summer of '69 (cue Bryan Adams) I was in the queue for the bank at RAFC Cranwell in my horrid blue horsehair uniform as I had some tedious form to fill out. Also in the queue was another Flt Cdt, plus several officers and airmen. Joining the queue was Wg Cdr Cadets or some such luminary. He spotted that the other Flt Cdt was wearing dark glasses and bellowed "YOU - outside NOW!". He then proceded to chew him out for having the temerity to wear sun glasses in uniform. This was a real Niedermeyer 'Pledge Pin' performance. When mate was asked to explain himself, he merely replied "Sir, the SMO insisted that I should wear these glasses due to an eye infection". They then rejoined the queue. On arrival at the counter, the bank cashier looked up and said "I think the young man was before you, Wing Commander".

Good to see a hectoring, abusive bully put in his place!

[William Elshgit]

AT

I forgot we were a fighting force for a moment !!

My mistake
:confused:

[An Teallach]

And calling a student a poof does exactly what to produce an effective fighting force? :confused:

[BEagle]

Several years ago (before the current EO era), an ex-Vulcan chum was asked to help out in a SSVC (or was it stil SKC?) movie about Harriers in Belize. This included shots of various grunts doing warry things with big f*** off machine guns etc.

The film director was gay. Not just gay, but a bit 'camp' in a theatrical way. By all accounts a very amusing bloke as well, with a sharp wit. This didn't go down (sorry) terribly well with the grunts...

So, came the day that they had to film the roughy-toughies wandering up rivers with guns looking for baddies, he let them get thoroughly soaked before shrieking in his best John Inman impression "Ooh no, darlings. We need you to do it again - only this time can you be a bit more butch please?". Take 2 - grunts get even wetter and more pi$$ed off. Director squeaks "Still not aggressive enough, sweeties. Really look butch and tough this time...".

About 5 takes later he let them off.

Relevant? Not really, I guess. Just an example of a harrassed minority getting his own back.

[An Teallach]

Beags

That wouldn't be involving the same chap who appeared in an early nineties GD(P) recruitment flyer sporting the name badge "Ben Dover"? It got all the way to the recruitment offices before it was spotted.

I never heard if there was any retribution from DORIS.

[GoodView]

Getting back on topic also:

It's quite simple, peolple leave the RAF if they perceive an alternative will provide a better quality of life.

Most pilots realise the airforce provides the best flying. They also soon discover it does not provide the best lifestyle. They certainly find out that having a family and remaining on the front line are not particuarly compatible.

When the airlines recruit RAF pilots are given choice. Peolple are leaving in droves because the airforce can't compete with the alternative employers. The ONLY two areas the RAF beats an airline are quality of flying and the pension. However, eating your lunch and tucking into the cheese board whilst gazing at the Alps is not such a bad thing, and the pension, well, it will just cost you a little more to retire on the same amount. BUT, why not have an enjoyable 30s and 40s than wish them away?

For what it's worth, I left earlier this year. I didn't even complete my 6 years return of service. When I asked to get out quickly they were over manned and were keen to let me go! I was at the front of the stampede......

Life on the other side is a huge improvement. I go to work, fly an aeroplane, come home and see my family........ I live in a house, and won't have to move every 3 years. I get discount travel, private health insurance and I don't do aircraft doc ammendments. I am not surrounded by **** licking individuals organising this and that for selfish reasons. I feel as if I have left childish politics and entered the real world.

The RAF is a fantastic place. There are scores of decent hard-working people and opportunities and experiences simply not available in the civilian world. It is spoilt by a handful of selfish individuals and an inability to make service life even remotely intune with modern family living.

Push and pull factors:
At the moment:
BIG PUSH + BIG PULL = LEAVING IN DROVES!

[Tamaze Man]

People leaving in droves = me getting out of this ground tour and back into a cockpit! Fantastic! All I need to do now is persuade the poster that he needs to put those who are leaving into a ground tour until their exit date, freeing up frontline slots for those of us who wish to be there (PMA take note, I will be calling in the New Year! Quote me happy, please..........)

[RileyDove]

AT - Problem is that you end up with a position that any word can be misconstrued - indeed in the 1930's and 40's calling someone
gay wasn't deemed in the same way as it is now. Indeed in the RAF I remember many people being refered to as a 'W****R' - with retrospect this was more than likely sexist !

[Ali Barber]

One of the points of IOT is to instill uniform discipline. If the "poof" was the only one wearing gloves, he should get rid of them. And if he can't take a little name calling in this mad PC world, how is he going to cope with his first scathing debrief or in combat when his wingman gets shot down. A bit of resilience wouldn't go amiss. The whole world has gone mad in thinking that every civilian rule should apply to the military!

Rant over!

Meanwhile, back at the topic..... I'm staying because I'm still enjoying myself. But I've managed to get out of the mainstream RAF into a weird backwater that gives me loads of job satisfaction in exchange for zero career enhancement, and I am happy with that. I have also noticed that a few "good guys" are starting to get into the star ranks. Maybe there is hope for the future?

[Spudley]

I left the RAF about 4 years ago. The greatest changes to my life other than the pay rise and increase in flying are that my working routine is predictable. I no longer return from a 6-8 week det to find my life screwed up by some unnamed irriot on a computerised wailing wall. The fact that the military does not subscribe to any working hours directive should not give the managers free license to own every hour of every day. Anyone who says that you are paid 24 hours a day 365 days a year is just a poor manager who cannot manage people and is too scared to give people time off. Another factor is possibly that anyone who joined before the early ninetys would have expected to defend the uk from the cold war threat, which actually gave a fairly stable routine, i.e. Germany, Uk and back again. Now we seem to be risking our lives on behalf of some people we didn't know about in some place we couldn't place on a map. Apart from the Falklands all these ' conflicts' have taken place in the past 15 years and have taken their toll.
I would like to say that I did enjoy my 12 in the Air Force and the greatest asset is the excellent people, but i only have one chance to see my kids grow up and it wasn't going to happen on permanent det with no time off in blighty.

[Widger]

Decimation of the medical services - what IDIOT agreed to keeping that centrally located hospital at Haslar?

Roland, whilst I agree with your general comment about the state of the Defence medical Services, I take issue with the second half of your comment. Approximately half of the RN live near the "centrally located hospital" that is Haslar. As well as the RN several hundred RAF, Army and Defence Police are also within the catchment area. Your comment smacks of a very A1-centric attitude. The army are far larger than the RAF and they are not all on the A1 either!

The main point about Haslar is, that when it was a proper RN Hospital, it was probably the cleanest, most efficient and best run hospital on the whole south coast. The breakup of the medical services was a disgrace and the subsequent attempts to rebuild what was decimated are only now starting to have effect.

[Mmmmnice]

A101

I concur with your thoughts vis-a-vis the mil changing attitudes but;
if you think that the majority of civvy aviators that drink too much get caught and locked up I suspect you may be a little wide of the mark? all a bit stones and greenhouses!

[Talking Radalt]

Its exactly that mentality of Talking Radalt that undermines everything the military stands for now
Well thanks very much.
My mentality (and yeah, I am pretty mental at times) is such that I feel we have now reached a point where complaints are upheld and listened to not because they have any actual substance, but simply because someone has complained, about someone else, doing something, some time, some where and thus something has to be seen to be done.
My underlying point with the "oh dear oh dear oh dear" comment is this: There are far, far greater things to worry about in life than what others call you, what they think of you or how they address you. Really, there are.
If being called a poof, or any other name under the sun, is enough to cause offence, how about some nasty A-rabs lobbing mortars at you? That fecking well upset me quite a bit, but hey ho, mustn't grumble. After all, I first need to remind the boss to refrain from calling any of us "knob/cock/****" next time we screw up, eh?
In fact, could we just clarify, what is it people take offence at? Being called nasty names, being called nasty names with a sexual overtone or just being told off at all?
In many, many cases nowadays I suspect it's the latter.
I'm NOT saying a re-think of the PC thing is carte blanche for instructors to do their worst, similarly with the beasting thing, but I really do feel the whole trend has now gained more momentum than is truly productive and beneficial, and due to that same momentum, no one dare quetion it. :hmm:

Rant off. And relax. Nearly Christmas.

[ukmike]

Massive cutbacks, good people leave, idiots promoted, good people leave due to bad bosses, therefore due to lack of personnel - idiots are promoted. Classis vicious circle.

Been in two years - its a bit amateurish. But better than outside? :confused:

I meant \'classic\' vicious circle.

[Melchett01]

I originally posted this a good few months ago to a question whether the Air Farce was going to hell in a hand cart. Thought it seemed fairly apt to re-post it here as a) it's Christmas - the season for repeats; b) I think it probably still sums up why people are rightly leaving in droves ......and why, despite the potential for a huge pot of cash for another 8 years of selling my sole, I'm tempted to say sod it.

"Hmmmm an interesting issue that unfortunately raises more questions than I'm sure anybody has answers for. But my first point would be



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doesn't every generation of serviceman think the RAF/Army/Navy etc is going to hell in a handcart?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes CG, I think you're right about that - and it's not just confined to the Armed Forces. However, in this case, I do think that ForwardAssist has a very valid point - we are going to hell in a handcart. Actually I think we're almost there - it's the next exit just after Bliar-town and Buffoon-ville.

Whilst not exactly an old timer, I have been in for 7 years and the drop in everything connected with the military - other than our output has been quicker than a slapper's drawers on a Friday night in Peterhead (not that I have any experience of that point).

1. We can no longer do anything that costs more than we can scrape together from the loose change down the back of the sofa.

2. Any form of fun that 20 years ago would have been described as building team spirit or morale is instantly spread over pages 1-12 of those items that can only be described as 'newspapers' in the loosest sense of the word (even my dog now objects to the Mirror and Sun in his dog basket), having mortally offended some 57 year old do-gooder called Norman from Little Snoring on the Wold.

3. We have a morally bankrupt government that doesn't give a damn about the armed forces, even though we are used in all sorts of roles from steely-eyed dealers of death (what we're supposed to do), to firemen, nannies, politically correct adverts for HMG's questionable 'inclusivity' policies and instruments of Tony's attempt to get the Nobel Prize for hypocracy (what we're not supposed to do).

4. We have a procurement system that leaves me gasping for breath and incandescent with rage at it's sheer general uselessness and incompetence coupled, which is often coupled with point 3 and HMG's moral vacuum that refuses to get rid of organisations that can't provide the goods because it might cost a few votes here and there. The end result being that we go off on ops without the kit we are supposed to have or if we are lucky with defective kit - albeit not enough of it.

5. We have a bunch of airships that by and large appear to be weaker than a soggy kit-kat, who are unwilling to stand up to the politicians and defend the interests of the service and the people underneath them; just because it might get them the sack or they won't get their next stripe or their 'K'. Where are the Dowdings of today who are prepared to stand up and tell the politicians no, this can't be done and trying to force it through will end in disaster. Well I've had a good hard look, and as far as I can see, the last one was the Navy-chappy Boyce who was CDS a few years back who was asked to leave early becuase he stood up for what he believed in. Back bone???? Not something the current lot appear to have heard much about - or that's the way it appears from my end of the trench.

6. We have got to the point that the RAF has been contracted out so much, that we are losing the can-do spirit to be replaced by can-do, as long as it isn't between 1000-1030, 1500-1530 or after 1615 (1530 on Fridays); won't stop me going on leave even though there is a war on; I can still get my round of golf in every Tuesday afternoon and nobody writes anything nasty about my being an oxygen thief on my annual civil service report. Civilianizing has meant that so much of our service ethos has gone for good that if we ever tried to get it back, we'd fail dismally only finding it dead under a pile of red tape, petty bureacracy and cost cutting measures.

And to my mind, this list of woe has it's roots in one place and one place only - the concept of treating the Armed Forces like it is a business. Whilst I'm all for financial responsibility, we have gone way too far and given the accountants and management consultants way too much sway. The really annoying thing is, we pay millions each year to employ these people and the end result of their £5.3M cost saving study is that they tell us we can't afford to pay their fees, so we'll just have to axe another hospital/ship/sqn/regiment This all stems from having things (I won't use the term leaders ) that have never served and cannot see the damage they have done to the forces by treating them like a business.

We do not operate in a world of profit and loss, instead our books balance when the same number of aircraft/tanks/people come home from a deployment that went out, having been successful in their mission. Defence is inherently expensive but it's output is often intangible - what do the politicians have to show for pumping billions our way each year. We would probably all point out that sleeping safe in your beds and watching your kids grow up happy and safe are probably tangible enough benefits of what we do, but that isn't enough for the politicians. They want that and they want everything else that goes with trying to buy the electorate - yes we have noticed Mr Bliar, and no we're not stupid.

So how do you fix it? Well I have to say that right now, we're bollocksed. I don't think we can fix it for the current generation. It has been said that we need to fail, to show them that we can't do everything with nothing, and then hopefully we'll get some cash. Whilst I see the logic, my personal pride will not allow me to that - not if there is a chance that I can do what I need to do successfully, no matter how meager the resources given to me to do it. Of course if I fail unintentionally, then that's a different matter. I think we need to make people realise that we are not a business and that you can't measure what we do in terms of profit and loss, and the sooner the airships (and tankships and ermm shipships??) force this point through so much the better. When they succeed there, we might get the accountants off our backs, which might ease the pressure a little to stop doing everything with nothing until you disappear in an ever decreasing circle up your own arse. I also think that part of the job specs for PM/ SoS Def should have been a spell in the forces, including time on ops, so they do actually appreciate what we are about and what the impact of slowly bleeding us to death is.

Alternatively, we call their bluffs - issue shares in the RAF and then sack the board of directors!!!!!!"

Merry Christmas to one and all ..... oh bu:mad: er, Christmas has been cancelled hasn't it!

Happy non-religious, ethno-friendly sectarian neutral winter festival :ok:

[Wyler]

Good post :ok:

How many times have you heard the phrase 'We need different leaders in peacetime to those we need in war time' ? What the **** is all that about?

We are victims of our own success. What makes us, IMHO, amongst the best in the world is our ability to improvise. By doing that we demonstrtae that we can do more with less. It is a vicious circle. The police, on the other hand, can just say no when they are told to merge forces, the useless Civil Servants can run to their Union, the Firemen can go on strike when their second jobs are threatened. We just get on with it, and usually in harms way.

I would not change it because I consider myself a professional, but it makes Loyalty and Commitment harder to deliver day by day. As can be seen by some of the posts on this thread, the goodwill is being stretched to rediculous lengths and I am not sure how long we can/will continue to be able to deliver.

[Maple 01]

the useless Civil Servants can run to their Union
just for information Wyler what happens is that many 'useless Civil Service' jobs are now done by 'arm's length' workers, which are still Civil Servants in all but name but don't get the perks or the same level of job security - the unions don't seem to be able to do much

sweeping generalisations aside if you work for the government there's always a catch.....

[Roland Pulfrew]

AT

That just goes to show how times have changed and not necessarily for the better. When I was a yoof the term a p**f had little to do with sexuality more to do with someone who was not as manly as that that was perceived to be correct where I grew up. Someone who played p**fball not rugby, someone who didn't like climbing trees, making tarzan swings over the river or generally acting the fool when growing up.

I would just like to point out that this topic is about why people are leaving in droves and PC bo**ocks like this is an example. If you take offence at the term being used to represent your sexuality then tough, I for one do not care.

And finally just to show how incorrect and PC you are Ben Dover was a Hercules pilot and a QFI - it was his name (obviously his parents had a sense of humour). Are you suggesting he should change it because of your PC sensibilities? Get real!

Widger

Fair point on the hospital but the majority of the Army are based around Germany, Salisbury, Catterick, Colchester, NI and various bases in Scotland. None of which are located for easy travel to Haslar. The vast majority of RAF personnel are based in 4 locations, Lossie/Kinloss/Leuchars - very difficult journey to Haslar, Yorkshire/Lincolnshire - a bit easier to get to Haslar but still not "easy", East Anglia - easier but still not easy. And Oxon/Wilts - again not an easy journey. Now I did not mention any specific hospital location as a better one than Haslar but lets start with London - easy rail and air links from all points of the UK. Aldershot or Peterborough - good rail links. Halton (possibly) or Wroughton - easy road and rail links. So not A1 centric just somewhere that is easier to travel to for the majority. However that brings me back to my main point - all 3 services should have medical establishments that meet their needs, not some purple establishment that doesn't.

Sorry, it's Christmas, rant off.:O

[An Teallach]

Roland

I think you'll find the word poof has always meant a gay man. The adjective poofy was applied by extension, as it was believed that there was something cissy about all gay chaps. One assumes the (apocryphal) 'Only 18 Stone Black Man to have ridden a Derby Winner' (Lester Piggot's cellmate) would not be described as cissy. ;)

I apologise, I never met Ben Dover so never knew it was his real name. Was privileged to know Rick Head, though! Although I am young enough to appreciate that what we put up with is not acceptable to the younger generation; I am not old enough to have met Wg Cdr Robert Sole (Berlin 1970s). Congratulations on being the first person ever to call me PC. Someone called me cool on this forum a while ago - I suppose I should be thankful it wasn't kewl! Those who know me will be having a quiet titter, I imagine.

[vecvechookattack]

the useless Civil Servants can run to their Union


Or indeed Servicemen and women running to their union. As a member of a large and unsympathetic union, I can asure you that running to thre union doesn't always prove fruitful.

[Spotting Bad Guys]

VVHC, I've re-read your post several times trying to understand your meaning. You don't seriously believe that we have a union, do you?

SBG

[vecvechookattack]

it depends if you have joined a union or not.

[9.81m/s/s]

Tut, tut fellas..................

All this whingeing ! Haven't you all forgotten that the Air Force is worthy of the ' Investors in People ' award ?


Shame on you all...............


I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed or numbered............

[Maple 01]

sorry mate, you ARE a number......

[9.81m/s/s]

It's all in the mind...............

[snafu]

Just like Melchett above, I'm becoming increasingly pi**ed off with the way that our lords and masters appear to be trying to treat HM Forces like a business. Just because some 'consultant' has told them that this, that or the other new scheme has made a business more profitable (while charging the MOD the equivalent of a new weapon system in fees), we suddenly have to embrace the new way like religious zealots. Heaven forbid that anyone in authority should be seen to turn round and tell the heirarchy "No - that won't work for a military organisation!" or the chorus would come from MOD Main Building, "A blasphemer! He must be enlightened!!"

Well, I have news for you and I won't charge a penny (I'm already employed 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, so consider this a freebie) :ok: HM Forces are NOT a business, we are an INSURANCE POLICY and you don't skimp on your insurance premiums!!

I also wish that I could stop receiving the multitude of glossy brochures telling me how some new system, that actually won't affect me a great deal, is being introduced or telling me, in excruciating detail, how to do my job in exactly the same way that I've always been doing it!!:* I think the last straw was 'Leadership in the Office' as published by 2SL. I understand that there are some people who do not behave in a way that gets the best out of their subordinates, but do we really need to waste our money on a brochure to tell them how to do it??:yuk:

[Milt]

Down Under in Oz the RAAF and the rest of the military, or what is left of it, has been ruined by what is called o u t s o u r c i n g and which our poor brother/sister RAF Brits seem to call leaning.

Our military guys/girls at the sharp end KNOW full well that if we get into a full blown stouch again we will fight on hard rations for a week or two while running out of fuel and ammo with very little blunt end in support.

It is some sort of a miracle that we can support our ongoing operations in those sandy places.

We go on hoping the other side is/will be worse and that we will be able to recover a modicum of esprite de corps from wherever it went before it is too late. It's difficult to develop a pride in one's service when nationalism is in decline and multi-culturism is going gang busters splitting us into factions.

My driving force during more than a fair share of combat was my belief that "I was doing my bit to help preserve the way of life for those who I was leaving behind." Trouble is that way of life has since changed for the worse and I'll be getting off the planet before it goes completely pear shaped.

[luke77]

Chaps and ladies

The late 90s saw aircrew leaving in droves so much so that each sqn was asked to send a couple of reps to a pow-wow with the AOC, at Waddington I think.

A report was published which pretty much answers the question to this thread.... and is almost a carbon copy of most of the sentiments shown above....I was there and I left for the airlines soon after where, personally, the grass is greener.

My point is that nothing seems to have changed in the best part of a decade.

From the military point, change for the better will only come from the top (government) as military posts seem to be short-term and who will stick their kneck out when one bad report from a reporting officer could blight a career and subsequent quality of life for the officer's family?

From an individual's point, where long-term quality of life is concerned then most will go if the grass appears greener, even if they are super-patriotic, as most people put their family/loved ones first.

So, imho, service life will improve when politicians think it needs to - if there are not enough servicemen for the wars.

Until such time, servicemen will leave at what politicians consider to be an acceptable rate.

My advice to most is plan on 2 careers as this post will re-appear in another 10 years time.

[Grimweasel]

Re 'Poof' incident the words "skipping jessy" were used not poof. Now if a Regt instructor can't use any words for banter / encouragement then what has this utterly stupid PC world come to? This is a fighting force not some stupid civilian management consultancy. The sooner people wake up and smell the coffee the better. You can't run a fighting force by pathetic PC civilian rules.

Rant over...

[Si Clik]

This is an interesting thread to those of us in the Fleet Air Arm where 'people are not leaving in droves at all'. In fact there is such competition to stay that a recent transfer signal left many chafing at not being selected.

Now there has been some problems with the RM and AET/M but these stats are also begining to look better. Why is this, do the FAA truly offer the best career opps and job all round or is it just a mere spike in numbers that we will rgret in the near future.

Who knows, but one thing is for sure, the very high quality people who work only on our unit seem to get p*@£$d off by not being selected or promoted rather than boredom or drudgery.

????

[WAFU1]

Si,

I do agree, the FAA appears to offer a wider spectrum of career progression and opportunity than possibly the RAF and most certainly the AAC.

Pinging, Junglie, Grey and Bootie Lynx, SAR all possible in one flying career if FTC A selected. And to top it off I believe that Air 309 is still going for those that want a shot at stovie/zoomie.

However, you are probably fully aware of a significant number of 2000-3000 hr, two and halfs that are leaving at about the 40 ish point because they do not have the 'new' 3 Tier command profile (i.e. stay in long enough and eventually you will get a drive of a Squadron) and the RN's policy of keeping FTC A until 45 ish.

Therefore many experienced and capable cockpit orientated RN aircrew leave as they do not want to be waiting until 45 (with only 5 years to run (until 50) on the current FTC conditions - unlike the other 2 Services that run to 55).

45 is not the time to start looking for a new job, they have all believed that 38-40 gave them a better chance of a second career and therefore if not on the FTC A signal by 40, pay back the FRI and leave. Which means down stream I do have a concern that if I do get the lucky chance to Command a Naval Air Squadron that the experience levels will be significantly reduced from the days when I was a first tourist and had considerable supervision/guidance from the old sweats on the old EMCC career profile. Younger crewrooms, less experience, less corporate knowlegdege but an increasing Operational tempo - and personally I believe that this has had an impact on our incident and accident rates.

Do not worry - I am more than content with the RN and a superb employer, but I have elected to go down the Command and Staff route. But I have seen the Fleet Air Arm lose many an experienced and qualified member of aircrew to civvie street purely because they are too late in selecting them for FTC A.

But in comparison to my muckers in the other 2 Services, I genuinely believe that we have managed to maintain an ethos and fighting spirit that many others appear to be losing. However, I have not been in my ovies in a frontline coffee boat for at least 4 years now (although I see many a Sqd from all 3 Services pass through on Dets and Ops) so maybe the shop floor may have a different spin.

[An Teallach]

Grimweasel

Aha, so we have a storm in a teacup on duff gen from rumour control. I presume the Rock in question was a Jock as in Scots English we use 'Jessie' where in English English you would use 'Cissy'. The word has no restriction or connotation as to gender or sexuality. Therefore if one cadet turns up on parade with gloves when the rest are without, 'Skipping Jessie' is fair game.

For complaining about the appellation, he is a Big Jessie and should grow up. :ok:

[BEagle]

"The late 90s saw aircrew leaving in droves so much so that each sqn was asked to send a couple of reps to a pow-wow with the AOC, at Waddington I think."

There were 2 of such meetings held at Waddington, chaired by ACM Sir John Allison. He did indeed listen to what was said and was impressed by the passion and strength of feeling expressed by many. These meetings were exceptionally useful as they by-passed the yes-men with their **** filters who didn't want bad news being known further up the food chain.

However, his thumbs were tied by the Treasury and he was powerless to make many changes, much to his personal regret. Which, I understand, was instrumental in his own PVR decision. Although that is hearsay and may well be wrong.

He was kind enough to endorse my paper on recruting and retention; that kick-start led to the MoD/CAA working group on pilot licensing and the eventual CPL/IR and ATPL accreditation agreement. But even the promise of a civil licence after 2000TT/1500PIC isn't enough these days as people with fewer hours are back to studying for their licences in between desert camping sessions.

Quelle surprise.....

[Radoper]

I have a friend still in who was openly criticised for travelling down to see his wife on all his days off (they live apart at the moment due to her work conditions) but surely this is understandable ??

Anal retentive idiots like the Officer in this case are part of the reason I think .. it was for me.

[vecvechookattack]

WAFU 1 - well said Sir.

[Pontius Navigator]

adr

Spot on mate: I was inspired by a tale of a Customs officer whose personal policy was to place every memo from above into a "maturing" pile. If, after three months, he'd not had a follow-up demanding to know why he hadn't acted on it, he threw it away.

I have used this system for ages. Learnt it from my boss in the 60s. He had 3 trays, In, Out and in the middle LBW. Let the Buggers Wait.

I file everything in file 13. I empty all my trays when I go on leave. When I get an email 'reply by [today's date minus one] I delete it as it is after the deadline and therefore too late.

I got one anguished phone call once about 4 days late

but I still need the information to which I replied, 'well why didn't you give me a proper deadline?'

[JessTheDog]

I have a friend still in who was openly criticised for travelling down to see his wife on all his days off (they live apart at the moment due to her work conditions) but surely this is understandable ??

Anal retentive idiots like the Officer in this case are part of the reason I think .. it was for me.

I hope the critic was recognised as a t0sser by all and sundry...even if personnel are viewed only as numbers with an output, then family and friends are vital for maintaining morale and performance. Some people (normally the twice-divorced alcoholics) were unable to accept that many of us had a life outside the Stn.

[SIT head]

Very long ago and very early in my career I was at a leaving barrel on 201 Sqn for one of the pilots that was leaving the service to fly for Dan Air - remember them? Shows how long ago it was then! During his leaving speech this bloke who'd ammassed 1000's of hours said he was leaving because it now felt right to. I remember thinking "silly old bu**er", or something like that, but now that time has come for me too. I can't specifically put my finger on any one thing and say that is why I am going - it's more a combination of things...

If you have a car that needs a new engine, the car won't go and is completely broke. So you get a new engine fitted and the car's fixed - okay, it's expensive, but that was all that was wrong with it. If, however, your car needs 4 new tyres, new exhaust, new wiper blades, new plugs, oil change, the dodgy starting looking at, the tracking fixed, new shock absorbers and a respray - well you'd scrap it cos the sum total of all those little things is bigger than one big thing on its own. The car still worked, just not very well. My point is, that I, personally, don't think there is one solitary reason that is making people leave the Service, but there are many smaller reasons, that will be different for each individual that eventually mean it's time to go.

If people choose to leave on a high with great memories then I wish them every success. If they leave with bad feelings, then something is wrong and we'd damn sure better get started on resolving those little things for the better. I still wish those folks every success, but it would be a whole lot nicer for them to leave with good rather than soured memories. The Service is populated with quality people and it is a pleasure and honour to work with them - but what goes around, comes around!

If I get offered a job, (interviews start next week!) I shall leave with a shed load of great memories and not a little regret. But it now feels right to leave - for me.

[BEagle]

Where once people were being nibbled to death by ducks, they're now being nibbled to death AND $hat upon by said ducks....

[circle kay]

It's a very good job Lt Lewis Page wasn't in the FAA, he'd still be in the RN living the life of riley allegedly. :)

Happy New Year to All
CK

[Greenleader]

All those years ago when our lords and masters dreamed up the option points, they got it about right. 38-40 is the right point to go if you want a second career. With IIP and changes in the system, the service almost encourages those who wish to to depart here. Personally, I've had a marvelous time in the mob as a driver(airframe), and would only change the odd bum deal from the appointer/training system :} . No regrets at all, but in my opinion, when the service no longer offers you a job that you really want :ugh: to do, or the next slightly less than desirable job does not have the promise of something you want to really do at the end of it, then that's the time to leave. At the end of the day, it's a personal choice and one that only the indiviual in question can make. One day I'll see you all where the grass is greener! :ok:

[FOMere2eternity]

Must admit, we do naturally presume 'the Service' - whoever that actually represents - will be shocked by our departure. In reality, apart from being quizzed as to why the graph angle seems to have bumps and troughs, I don't think 'the Service' gives a stuff. Those of us who have had enough of the pettiness and wheel re-invention simply help the system promote or employ new blood.

Personally, I can't help being surprised that those who have made the big time don't want to leave a legacy of being remembered as people who made a difference for the people as opposed to 'the bloke who introduced Typhoon', but then I suppose it takes a certain type of person...

Notwithstanding the odd t*sser, who are also fortunately being cutback, I've met some great people across all ranks whose skills 'the Service' have never been capable of harnessing properly.

[charliegolf]

The shrinkage inevitably means that 'team maintenance' always comes a long way behind 'task maintenance'. That was always the priority order, but quieter times were used for team maintenance-battery charging (which would include training out bad habits) if you will.

Wanna-fly crazies will always convince themselves to take on the **** and live with it "As long as I'm flying". Then they grow a family.

Crewrooms are, i'm sure still full of know-alls who can do better than the bosses, that's human nature. But the boss's job is to get the job done.

That's not exclusive to service life.

CG

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CG - you are right about the boss needing to get the job done, unfortunately the bosses have little power to change things which are fundamentally wrong and spend their tours tinkering with the trivia they can adjust. Sadly this seems true through to Air Ranks who are happy to implement 'Leaning' sessions (these were introduced to industry management in the 80's as Total Quality Management) to identify problems and solutions but, when a solution costs money or changes 'established practices' or requires a major sea change of rules and regs - they just remove that element from the 'leaning' equation and move on to something they can adjust without too much upset. Everything in the RAF is in a state of flux and everybody is pulling in different directions - no cohesion, no leadership and certainly no 'front line first' mentality. More like 'protect my job/career first'.