RAF Boulmer closure to be reviewed

[Wyler]

BBC Look North tonight at 6.30pm. John Reid has written to Alan Beith (Lib Dem and local MP) to say that the closure of RAF Boulmer is now subject to review due to the excessive costs of moving existing ASACS units (School of Fighter Control and CRC).

So, closing a unit that has just been refurbished with state of the art equipment and moving it to a second world war station with limited infrastructure and under the thumb of English Heritage is expensive is it? Could have told them that two years ago before this shambles started.

Stand by for the mother of all fudges. No change on the decision to close but it will 'move right' and then 'move right' again. I really hope someones (2* or 3*) Gonads are roasting over an open fire this christmas.

[JessTheDog]

That'll p!ss off the STC and PTC bean-cutters, sorry counters! The RAF Lincoln commuters will be even more upset!

I was at the happy place when the Command Secretary visited the other year and only regret that I wasn't in the position to express my views with regard to the stupidity of the move.

The fact that the station had the Officers' Mess with the finest standards in the UK Armed Forces is another issue....long may it continue!

[gadgetbent]

I am sure that this is not the first time that this has been suggested. But it would be rather amusing if it came true...

Let's just forget this whole Scampton c**k up and move TCW to Coltishall where there is loads of space and a sound infrastructure. Suprisingly, there is a ready made FC facility near by that just needs a refit.

Full circle, me thinks...

GB

[Styron]

Very sensible considering Boulmer is undergoing major refurbishment and has just had millions spent on it.

Boulmer is ine of the few RAF Bases in the north, along with Leeming and Linton on Ouse.

Hopefully a future use can also be found for Leeming. ;)

[BigginAgain]

Wyler

Surely this is not news? The review of the plan to install the A6 Hub at Scampton will presumably look at 2 options - TCW & ERAS will go either to Leeming or Scampton as per the original plan. A review of the position of Boulmer falls naturally out of this. I am suspicious of Beith's motives in releasing this news - is he just trying to show the local populace what an effective MP he is? Nothing he has done will make any difference to the eventual outcome.

The long-term aspirations of our lords and masters (one CRC at Scampton with another at a FJ MOB beginning with C nearby) do not stand up if the CRC at Scampton has a life of 5-7 (or 15???) years until NATO ACCS comes in (and anyone wanting to look at a gigantic waste of money should compare that with UCCS!). That being the case, the CRC at Boulmer will need to continue for the foreseeable future, but it's a pretty bl00dy miserable and cramped setup now that the Group Staff 'rustication' is forcing many more people underground and putting the squeeze on the SFC.

I am told by those that have visited the new CRC at Scampton that it is pretty impressive considering it's a converted Airmen's Mess - hard to believe that it may be closed inside 10 years, but it may be unsustainable without the rest of the base around it? And what will happen to 1 ACC? Back up the A1 to Boulmer?

I also wonder whether the final decision will be heavily influenced by whether HQ Land (?) has a requirement for Leeming - this would presumably put paid to plans for TCW/ERAS to locate there for anything other than an interim period.

I am expecting the final announcement any time in the next 12 to 18 months! Apparently ERAS are planning to move to RAF Woodvale until the decision is made.

BA

[Styron]

RAF base closure to be 'reviewed'
BBC News
14th December 2005

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/4525486.stm

Plans to relocate a Northumberland RAF base with the loss of 700 jobs are to be reviewed, it has been revealed.

The jobs which are under threat are within the Air Combat Service Support unit at RAF Boulmer.

But the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has written to Liberal Democrat MP for Berwick, Alan Beith, saying plans were being reviewed because of cost worries.

Mr Beith said he now hoped the move would be scrapped and is hoping to meet Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram.

Best value

But in his letter, Mr Ingram said: "In light of increased site preparation cost estimates at RAF Scampton, we have decided to review whether this location remains the best value for money option for all the units concerned and are considering possible alternative locations."

Northumberland County Council and Alnwick District Council have been lobbying the government for a package of support measures to help minimise the consequences claiming the move would deprive the county of £18m a year.

Mr Beith said: "The best value for money option is to keep RAF Boulmer as it is, following the multi-million pound refurbishment which has just been carried out there.

"I always believed the plans to move would start to unravel once the costs became clear and real money had to be found."

The proposed wind down of the base and transfer was planned to take place between 2009 and 2012.

[Wyler]

BA

As you can see from the above, it is news. Until yesterday there was plenty of rumour but no substance to this review. From a 'definite' to a maybe is a seed change in thinking (and not before time).
Until a few weeks ago any talk of a possible reprieve for Boulmer was dismissed out of hand by the powers that be. I just think this whole debacle could have been avoided. Seems to me we (the RAF) could do with slowing down this race for off loading real estate and take something other than a knee jerk approach to forward planning.
Perhaps we could start by taking measures to ensure there are LESS Air Ranking Officers than aircraft.....:E

[Brit55]

I may be wrong however, aren't CRCs paid for from the coffers at NATO? If this is the case, then I believe that a review of Boulmer's future is probably based purely on a lack of funding to sort out the accomodation at Scampton/RAF Kirton in Lindsey, which will prevent CRC Scampton from ever becoming a 24 hr CRC due to a lack of bodies.

Why keep Boulmer open long term? Bunkers are very expensive to maintain and as costs spiral, I think the FC branch may be forced to work above ground at a Typhoon base not far from Scampton!

How about a 24 hr CRC with NATO ACCS (or whatever it's called) at Conningsby supported by CRC Scampton during the day or whenever flying is at its busiest?

One thing is for sure, CRC Scampton will not close in the near future, the NATO accountants will not tolerate that surely!!!

B55

[SpotterFC]

HAHAHAHAHA

B55 you make I laugh - NATO accountants not tolerate a total waste of money? They're tolerating a new NATO HQ aren't they? Oh, I forgot - that gets them shiney new offices and stuff - silly me.

[Wyler]

B55
We have had this discussion before...
Agree that going above ground is the way ahead and we have a limited capability to do just that now at Boulmer.
Don't give a t*ss where the Typhoons/F3's/Tankers etc are, we are not role dependant. From a technology point of view, we can already be anywhere we want.

[Inspector Dreyfuss]

Collocation with ISTAR would have been a very good idea - and I don't mean on the other side of Lincoln. Unfortunately there was not enough room, I gather. Failing that, siting on an MOB would have been a step forward too - although I share Wyler's views to an extent regarding my emotional attachment to Northumberland. Also, I believe that the RAF will be the long term loser if we abandon our footprint in the NE of England. Losing Leeming as well would have left a big black holebetween Linton and Leuchars. The Services are losing their bonds with the community and grouping (just about) everyone in Lincs & Scotland would not help matters one jot.
It was a very silly idea to put a brand spanking new state of the art airC2 ops facility on a site with no viable infrastructure.
Net result: no decent accommodation at Scampton, 1ACC on a knackered site that was neglected by the Army and also planning blight at Boulmer. For example, because of the planned closure of the latter, the project SLAM was cancelled and the troops are in temporary accommodation. We have already lost some good people at the cpl and SNCO level who voted with their feet and I hope we do not lose any more of our talent because of this.

[Impiger]

A couple of small points of order.

In the ACCS era the CRCs will not be NATO funded but paid for by the nation as they become the highest level of national control. The only bit that NATO will pay for is the CIS connectivity from CRC upwards to CAOC.

The new NATO HQ will indeed be a costly affair but if you've visited the current location you'll know it is falling apart and may not last the 10 years expected before the new building is ready. Oh and the new building will be funded from the NATO Civil Budget and hence the UK share will be paid for by the FCO. Thus it is not in competition for funds with any other NATO infrastructure projects.

[SpotterFC]

Impiger

Fair enough on the HQ funding coming from another Department - but it's still a waste of money.

As for the CRCs not being paid for by NATO, I'm afraid you're wrong there - they will be majority funded (75%) by NATO. Where they are going - now that's another matter entirely.

[gadgetbent]

Surely where the CRCs go to in the long term is also dependant on the future merge of ATC and FC?

Maybe we should all be colocated at Swanwick and Prestwick??

GB ;)

[tablet_eraser]

Let us know when you get a bite for that one, Gadgetbent!

:p

t_e

[Brit55]

Wyler,

you may not give a t*ss about where the air assets are based however, I can't believe for a second that the weapons side of your branch would not rather co locate with the AD aircrews.

I have plenty of mates on the F3 fleet (bless them) and they do suggest that there is a huge divide between the controllers and the aircrew in terms of understanding what is required of GCI. Surely, if you were at the same unit, you would be able to become more effective from the weapons point of view.

I completely understand you point of view about technology allowing you to work from any unit from a surv point of view however, why not a flying unit?


Merry Christmas to you all,

B55

[Wyler]

Brit 55

Yes, there is definite mileage in being togehter but the advantage, IMHO, is so small that it does not merit a huge investment like that. In the course of a normal working week the weapons team work with F15's, F3's, Typhoon, Hawk, GR4, GR7, KC135, VC10, FRA, Dutch F16's, French Mirage etc etc. All have different requirements and all think they are the most important.

My point is we carry out a huge range of control tasks and, therefore, we do not/cannot specialise to that extent. The E3D force is now heavily involved in CAS and a lot of other stuff. Being at every Typhoon brief/debrief is not going to significantly impact on our (corporate) perfomance.

Unfortunately, some of the F3 fleet do not understand what we do or what our scope is. They think we are here purely to serve them and them alone so they get frustrated when we do not provide exactly what they want when they want. Ask one of your 'mates' when he last visited a CRC? No easy answer.

The other suggestion is to put a controller on each squadron as a SME or POC. But., as you know, they will want a pretty 20 something to impress and drive their MT. :E

Merry Xmas:ok:

[Inspector Dreyfuss]

Wyler,
Concur completely. There's a lot more to AirC2 than GCI with one particular type of fast jet. On the subject of ignorance, my particular favourite a few years ago was when an F3 nav asked me if my radar worked in TWIS!

[OOpsIdiditagain]

During my time in the Falklands Controllers were required to attend all briefs and debriefs with the 1435 flt and when appropriate 1312 aircrew as well. Often the FA and MC would attend as well. It was a very succesful procedure. Junior controllers rubbed shoulders with aircrew and learnt a great deal some good and some bad. Likewise junior aircrew were exposed to our line of business and again, I believe, learnt some good stuff. Agreed the FI was a somewhat sterile environment but colocation of some WCs at MOBs would enhance both the Fighter Control branch and the host stn.

As for which bases should close and which to stay open. Wouldn't it be nice just to relax and stay as we are just for a little while..................

[Brit55]

Wyler,

fair point about the variety of assets you guys look after, I'm not in any way trying to put your branch down at all, it's relevance will only increase as the AD drivers go back into single seaters (a mistake IMHO).

I just find it VERY frustrating that I rarely get the chance to give feedback to the WC after a sortie. They often fail to grasp what we are setting out to achieve and it would be nice to be able to offer you guys in for a coffee post sortie and get some LI's out into our communities. I have an understanding of GCI that is not acceptable IMHO however, how do I get to improve it without debriefing?

Incidentely the E3 guys are generally much more approachable and seem to have more of an understanding about the importance of debriefing however, that is probably down to the fact that they deploy on a regular basis.

I'm just clutching at straws here however, should Boulmer close, what option could possibly be better than moving to an MOB?

Your comments about the F3 community are spot on, they have their own agenda and everybody else is expected to adhere to it, hence why we often kiss off affil sorties as the training value is often limited to say the least! ;)

[Wyler]

Oops.

Agreed. That was a theatre specific need though and worked well. IF you are on the sane base it is stupid nort to work togetjher (I did a 2 year accompanied tour there 1999 to 2001.!) Mind you, most VC10 crews and F3 types never did visit even though they had to drive past us to get to the mess!!!!

Brit 55.

Your attitude is refeshing and I appreciate your point of view totally. Unfortunately, you do not represent the mainstream of the FJ community.

Reference where we go next. From a UK point of view if we have to move, then I would vote for co-location with ATC as that would enhance out ability to 'Police' our sovereign airspace more robustly.

I would however, vote for dedicated controllers on Sqns if we could send our older, fatter, more experienced individuals that wouuld be treated with the respect that they desrve.

[Brit55]

Wyler,

not a bad point about working more closely with ATC. A point I had never thought of as your respective Branches seem so diverse and not exactly in love with each other!

B55

[Maple 01]

OOpsIdiditagain
When the FIADGE was relevant it would have been a bit difficult to drag in the controllers from Kent, Alice or Byron to the debriefs only to hear F-4 crew tell them how great aircrew mates were....again - and who'd have minded the shop while they were away?;)

Now the big question - if remoting works so well why not do airspace surveillance and control of the Falklands from somewhere more geographically conducive to enhanced C3I2 - say Barbados, leaving the windswept islands to our fast-jet brethren?

[BEagle]

"Mind you, most VC10 crews and F3 types never did visit even though they had to drive past us to get to the mess!!!!!

Bit of an ar$e comment, given that the '10 crews do constant 'Q' and probably only get to the Officers' Mess the night before they RTB back to the UK.

Or perhaps you didn't bother going over to the other side of the aerodrome to find out what they did?

Memories of several detachments to Base Aerea Gringo, Fuerza Area Malvinas do not include ever once having seen any FIADGE people visiting 1312 Flt.

[Maple 01]

BEags,
Controllers were petty-much stuck on the mountains for the whole tour the times I was there with no time to schmooze with the fly-boys , though the road to Kent hadn't been built then and of course the 101 was a glint in some boffin's eye - I think they managed a few dining-in nights at the Death-Star but that was about it. (But don’t tell OC FIADGE it was an SAC giving Delta control the following day)

Those awfully nice chaps at 23 let me look round the place one time and gave me a patch but that was about it.

I can’t believe I’m defending controllers again

[Wyler]

Beagle.

Not an a*rse comment at all!

A controller visited every day either for a coffee or to talk over some work we were doing/wanted doing. I saw OC 1312 at least 4 times a week. I went over on a regular basis. I got as many of my troops flying as possible. As usual, it was a one way street.

In fairness, some of th OC's came across and we got some good info on Tanking.

[Inspector Dreyfuss]

Blimey Wyler - the mutual attendance at dining in nights etc with 1312 Flt, 1435 Flt and 78 Sqn must have been a figment of my imagination. Perhaps the old memory doesn't serve me too well.
Similarly, as the ex-OC 1435 Flt (from the mid-1990s) is my Boss now, he appears to be suffering from the same collective amnesia.
Nostalgia ain't what it used to be!

[RayDarr]

Unfortunately, some of the F3 fleet do not understand what we do or what our scope is.( Wyler comment)

Actually Wyler old chum, your scope is that computer based fish bowl about 18 inches from your nose.
Anyway, what do I know about controlling? Well I remember sitting on Mt Kent in 84/85 and fixing a Toga party which cornered the market for WRAFs, WRACS and every other military female we could entice up the hill. Boy, was that a night!!
As a long time past member of the GDFC Branch my best advice to the rest of the real RAF is to post them all to Boulmer, and bolt the door from the outside once they are all in the bunker. Then sell the site for housing and forget all about them.
I spent 16 years of my life with that bunch and the only way out was to leave the service!! I still have the scars and occasionally wake up screaming "Stranger 350 range 2 miles closing" Anyway, the tablets help, so no worries.
In the dim distant past when I joined we were all rejects from some other branch, (I was chopped off jet Provosts) and spoofed at "Reselection" into joining the FC Branch. I remember at Patrington the first true volunteer FC officer arriving. How we all laughed!!!
I remember having a serious stand up row with a FC Sqn Ldr once at Buchan who insisted that he was more important than the aircrew, he could best place them to intercept the enemy. I told him that until he had a gun button on his radar console he was just whistling through his a***. Didn't win me any friends that night.
Someone commented that the ATC and FC people were to merge. Might happen I suppose, the average ATC bloke seemed better at getting 2 aircraft together than our people ever did, and most FC's couldn't get 2 fighters in the same Georef square. Anyway, "They" have been talking about it since the mid 70's as far as I can remember, so don't hold yer breath. Mind you, the way the RAF is contracting, they will need to amalgamate both branches in order to man the Tower at Scampton.
Have fun boys and girls,
Ray Darr

[Maple 01]

Well I remember sitting on Mt Kent in 84/85

Ah the days of psychic controlling! Could the 600 see further than SAS Point?

Welcome Ray

[Widger]

First of all, I am not waving the Dark Blue flag aka Navaleye or VECVECVECEVEC and not trying to get into a pi&&ing match, there is however some sense being talked on here. The RN experience is that close exposure of WCs to the aircraft and aircrew reaps massive benefits. For many years, Naval FW squadrons have had their own "D" (Fighter Controller) as part of the squadron. Yes they sometimes did get jobbed as staffy etc but not to the extent suggested earlier. At Sea it is even better, with all 6/7 FCs living alongside (not literally) the squadron pilots and going to all briefs and debriefs. This raises awareness on both sides and operational effectiveness all round. It means voices can be recognised (good in a spoofing environment) and tactics are fully briefed to all parties.

There is much to be said for much closer liaison although, I think that Scampton is a bit of a Red Herring and has probably got more to do with justifying an air base for the Dead Sparrows than anything else but, I am sure someone will correct me quite firmly on that statement!


By the way, why don't these smilies work anymore? Using the works computer with Windoze, they have no buttons around them although at home, they do work!

Oh well :-) ;-)

[RayDarr]

Hi Maple, Thanks for the welcome to PPrune.
Back in Kent in 84/85 (pull up a sandbag) the radar was so bad that we never used it. We sat round a Ouija instead and held hands (No not like that!!!) Neil Wilmot was the CO then, followed by Kev Pellet who wonder of wonders eventually evolved into an Air Commode I'm told. Anyway, I left the mob in 87 giving up poor pay, duty, Queen and Country for capitalism, greed and the easy life.
Excuse me while I go for another Pimms
Yours, Ray

Oh yes - Boulmer? close the place and integrate into the real RAF. Both the zoomies and the scope dopes might learn from the experience. As for the ATC thing, They are all fine people, but I wouldn't want a child of mine marrying one.
Yours, R

[ORAC]

RayDarr, check your PMs.

[Wyler]

Welcome Ray

So, we are crap yet it took you 16 years to summon up the courage to leave. How very odd. Passed over for promotion perhaps?
True though, in the 80's it was a novelty to find anyone on the course who was a direct entrant (it was my 3rd branch!).
However, some of us soldiered on and we thinned out the Navs with bandy legs and similar to move onto better things.
Where were you in 87? trying to place you.

:)

[RayDarr]

Wyler,
No old mate, some of us were quite good, but then most of us had only failed one course, not two, before we were dumped into the GDFC world. Anyway, if you are still in after 20 something years you must be a Verrry senior orficer by now. If so, why are you wasting my taxpayers money on this silly message board. Go and get some work done!!
I could tell you where I was in 87, but that would blow my cover and I'm worried that I have been so rude, you you might come round and punch me on the nose!!
Thinking back, there was one guy who became very senior, who told me that he was on pilot training, but didn't like it, so chopped himself to join the FC Branch. Can you believe that!!!
All the best, Ray

[AonP]

The Hansard statement on RAF Scampton hints at a further review of ASACS sites:
"Increased site preparation cost estimates at RAF Scampton have caused us to review whether this location remained the best value for money option for a communications hub. This work has now concluded and, subject to Trades Unions consultation, I have decided that the RAF communications hub will be formed at RAF Leeming (North Yorkshire) instead of RAF Scampton as this will be significantly more cost effective.
This means that communications personnel would move from RAF Sealand to RAF Leeming by April 2006. Communications personnel from RAF Brize Norton and RAF High Wycombe would move to RAF Leeming in 2007. The future location of ASACS units, currently at RAF Scampton, RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey and RAF Boulmer, will be the subject of further work."
Does anyone have any clue what will be included - a fair chance of another U-turn I think!
AonP