Exit levels?

[bowly]

Heard a rumour that the percentage of pilots taking their option this year, is as high as 80%. Anyone got any further details? Surely this can't be right!!!

[Twonston Pickle]

Why the need to put "Mil FJ" in your profile? Surely there is no civvy FJ? I smell something fishy here.......

[Shot to the Beach]

PMA advised us recently that 85% of Sqn Ldr aircrew chaps and chapesses were taking their option at 38. 'Unsustainable' was his comment...

[bowly]

TP,

Not fishy, but perhaps crabby! Certainly not underhand as you would suggest. Maybe I need to put the comma in my profile between the two; (nice use of semi-colon don't you think) ISS seems like such a long time ago!;)

Out of the PMA loop, so just an honest query.

I had also heard the word 'unsustainable' used by others. If this figure is correct, then are we in for a increase/re-implementation of the retention bonus. Oh I do hope so.......:D

[Jobza Guddun]

Doesn't matter how many aircrew are leaving.......

after LEAN and the techy slashing, you'll have very little to fly anyway. Look at Lyneham.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I hope this is not true as the ones who suffer most are us poor souls further down the food chain, as we wave a sad goodbye to all the top gezzers whilst contemplating what the buffoons that remain can do to make our sad existence even sadder :}

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[pma 32dd]

PVR time for pilots is now 12 (rather than 6) months. Insert assumptions here ............................................

[LFFC]

pms 32dd

Six months or 12 months - there's not much difference; once someone has decided to leave they become non-effective quite quickly. Then it's more work for the rest of us!

bowley

I heard that there was a smart plan to entice people to stay by using the new pension scheme and the PA spine - but I understand that was blown away as it was too expensive! So I wouldn't hold out too much hope about a bonus if I were you.

[southside]

I always understood that the annual average was 75-85% and so if this year it was 80% then thats normal.

[Axial Flo]

LFFC

I don't understand your comments ref the PA Spine and the new pension.

Being on the PA Spine and leaving on the new pension scheme at 55 gives an increase in cash. In my case it equates to an additional £4000 a year pension and an additional £11000 tax free lump sum. Assuming I live until 75 this is a total of £87000 more than I would have received on the old pension scheme

Unless I am missing somthing this looks like more cash for staying until 55. Am I missing somthing?

Flo

[BEagle]

But will you actually stay until 55? Do the sums for leaving earlier and things may not seem quite so rosy, I would suggest.

[Mmmmnice]

Just signed on for the new pension, so I've got to stay. If everyone else leaves I might get something to fly! Does that mean I can shut down the computers finally?

[Raymond Ginardon]

Twonston Pickle - there is 'civvy FJ'.

Ray :-)

[LFFC]

Axial Flo

I'd heard that moves were afoot to automatically swap CS sqn ldrs to the PA spine once they achieved a certain age and it became clear that they wouldn't manage further promotion. This would have assured them of getting the bigger pension if they were on the new pension scheme.

As it is at the moment, flight commanders have to see their subordinates rapidly overtaking them in both their pay and pension prospects. So is it any wonder that CS sqn ldr aircrew are becoming disillusioned and leaving for other employers that might value them more?

Unfortunately, their subordinates detect that malaise and it spreads. Sadly, it doesn't seem that anyone has the power or the foresight to do anything about it.

[Axial Flo]

LFFC

I now see what you mean and your earlier post makes perfect sense.

I guess the message is clear. If you are a CS Sqn Ldr pilot and you can't guarantee making Gp Capt or higher by 55, and there is no prospect of being offered PA Spine, then the only rational option from a financial perspective is to go to the airlines.

Flo

[LFFC]

Axial Flo

Yeah - sad ain't it! The full impact of that situation has been clear for a couple of years and I understand that desk officers have been screaming about it - yet nothing's been done to "redress the balance".

So.......

If you're an aircrew flt lt aged less than about 32 then taking promotion may not be a major issue as you'll probably get further promotion to wg cdr in the future.

If you're aged over about 32 but not past your 38/40 point, you must think very hard about accepting promotion. Chances are that you'll never get to wg cdr in this shrinking RAF so you'd be better off as a PA flt lt than as a CS sqn ldr. But of course, they may not assimilate you as a flt lt! So it's a gamble. The consensus seems to be - take the promotion, then leave at your 38/40 point because there's little incentive to stay!

If you're a PA flt lt, then you'd be a complete t*sser to accept promotion to sqn ldr because it will be back on the CS with all the loss of pension that that entails!

Faced with those decisions, it's hardly surprising that flt lts are making career choices at a very early age!

[Eye off the ball]

"If you're an aircrew flt lt aged less than about 32 then taking promotion may not be a major issue as you'll probably get further promotion to wg cdr in the future."


LFFC, just to complicate your theory, I'm a fair bit less than 32 and still turned down promotion. The package just isn't appealing enough for reasons well documented in this thread and others. I PVR'd and am off to the airlines - no surprises there!

Younger Flt Lt s seem to be packing it in more than they have in the past; I think this is largely due to the realisation that if you're thinking of leaving before 38/Immediate pension point then you've got a pension pot to build up to compensate. Rough figures: Post aged 33 - Worth staying till 38. Pre-aged 33 - You can make up your pension in civvy st with AVCs, earlier command etc.

The long and short of it? If you're not staying for the Immediate pension, the best time to go was yesterday!! I know so many pilots that are hacked off but they cannot entertain the idea of leaving when they've only got a couple of years until their 38 point.
Once they reach that point however they will go unless the airlines are having a shocker at that stage.

All so sad, I was as keen as mustard 2 years ago; how did I get disillusioned so quickly? Happy with my lot now mind you!!
:D

[southside]

Well that may be the case at CU but here in the Lynx fleet morale is high, we are all looking forward to Christmas leave. Some of oud bretheren are away defending democracy. But, generally life in the Lynx fleet is fine. There are a few guys going outside but most of them at their natural break points. Can't remember the last PVR ...? Oh yes I can, we had 1 this year and thats in a fleet of over 100 aircrew.
Morale wise, life in the Lynx fleet is fine. Lots of hard work, lots of sea time and lots of being pi$$ed about with changes of programme and changes of ships etc etc But I can honestly say that when I joined my first ship in 1976 it was exactly the same. Nothing has changed as far as the tempo of work. It was hard then and its hard now.

Socially life is good. This week we have had a great Xmas draw ( I won bugger all again), we had the (now infamous) Lynx Lunch (fantastic fun - especially the fight) and the Senior Rates bottle draw was something which will remain in my memory for many years.

Next term we have lots of flying to look forward to, Ex Loyal Mariner, Gulf deployments, Lemon peel etc etc. We have a fab social in Feb lined up when we celebrate a 25,000 Hours land mark. The Lynx celebrates 30 years in Naval service next year and so there are plans to make for those celebrations. As for the aircraft - its old, doesn't meet the Op requirement and its servicability is beginning to suffer BUT its still the fastest and most fun RW aircraft to fly. There are about 6/7 different types of the aircraft flying around and so when you climb into one your never quite sure which configuration it will be but that adds to the fun. As for the flying, that remains fun. We have had our new weapon for over a couple fof years now and it remains the most awesome of guns. Tractor spotting is becomming a firm fave and I say that as the lead spotter.

So, overall, I'm not quite sure of why morale is low at CU but here in Somerset and in general throughout the lynx fleet morale is high and life is ok thank you very much.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

I'm not surprised morale is so high if you are looking forward to christmas leave, attended all your fantastic sqn social events, and have all next year planned out, both socially and professionally.

Back in the real world of military aviation, I am awaiting Op Deny Christmas, not sure what I am doing next week, let alone next year.

I wish we could all go to all our sqn socials, but with only 1 in 8 allowed leave (the only way to guarrantee the day off) and so many deployed crews on top of normal tasking, it will never happen.

My fleet has been at Op tempo since Afghanistan started, and no change is on the horizon. Flying in a high threat zone has become the norm, but we get no extra training than before as there is no money/time available. As previously stated, we receive pointless grunt training 'til it pops out of our eyeballs, but nothing of use to us operationally.

FJ and RW sqns depoy en mass, and do a pre deployment work-up. We just keep on sending the same guys again and again. Some ALM's do 6 months of every year in the desert, and as long as their pistol is ?zeroed?, they have been refused any kit by stores, and have spent a day recognising the symptoms of snakebites, they are good to go!

THAT is why exit levels are so high.

I will miss the people I work with, not the people I work for.

P.S. Glad life in the RN flying club is good though!

[bowly]

"But I can honestly say that when I joined my first ship in 1976 it was exactly the same. Nothing has changed as far as the tempo of work."

SS,

That's probably the whole point. In every other sphere of military aviation, things have changed SIGNIFICANTLY and the tempo of work has increased. Hence people are voting with their feet. I find it difficult to believe that things have remained the same in your AO. But then it's your word.......and we know how trustworthy and reliable that is, dont we? If that is the case however, good luck to you, and it's right that you all remain doing something you love. Sadly, the reality for everyone else is that the lifestyle and opportunities that were once available and loved by many, are no more. Cue the issues discussed here, and on t'other thread about leaving in droves. Hey ho...

[Axial Flo]

LFFC

'If you're a PA flt lt, then you'd be a complete t*sser to accept promotion to sqn ldr because it will be back on the CS with all the loss of pension that that entails!'

Not quite right as I understand it.
You can be promoted to Sqn Ldr and remain on the PA Spine. If you are subsequently promoted to Wg Cdr you are obliged to return to the Career Spine. In theroy PA Sqn Ldrs are still in competition with CS Sqn Ldrs for promotion to Wg Cdr. In practice, and by the very nature of PA Spine positions, they are unlikely to be offered the right posting in order to get the ticks needed for promotion. However a Wg Cdr pension at 55 will be less than a PA Sqn Ldr pilot. You would have to be sure you could make Gp Capt before 55 in order to make being promoted financially worthwhile.
So if you're a PA Sqn Ldr, you'd be a complete t*sser to accept promotion to Wg Cdr because it will be back on the CS with all the loss of pension, and increse in workload, that that entails!'

Flo

[LFFC]

Axail,

Good point - I hadn't thought of that. I suppose that's the equivalent of the old promotion to sqn ldr within the spec aircrew branch - but wasn't that only possible beyond the age of 45?

The trouble is that that only makes matters worse! I couldn't begin to imagine how a CS sqn ldr would feel if he/she was denied transfer to the PAS whilst one of his subordinates was promoted to sqn ldr within the PAS!

[Axial Flo]

LFFC

The spec aircrew system was slightly different. A spec aircerew Flt Lt promoted to Sqn Ldr before the age of 45 would automatically transfer back to the single list (the CS in todays terms). This was to be avoided at all costs as you ended up with a Flt Cdrs workload with very little prospect of further promotion (since you were competing with the young 'high fliers' who were promoted to Sqn Ldr in their early thirties).

A spec aircrew Flt Lt promoted to Sqn Ldr after age 45 remained spec aircrew. This was ideal since as a pilot you were pretty much guaranteed to keep flying to 55 and amongst other things you were no longer eligible for orderly officer.

You're right about the CS Sqn Ldr, denied PA Spine, watching in dismay as his PA Spine Flt Lt deputy is promoted to PA Spine Sqn Ldr. Especially grim when he realises that his deputy is now lined up for a ground based Gp Capt pension at 55.

Flo

[Mmmmnice]

AF Not all rosy though, as there is more competition for promo and, if you do get it, more chance of a quality staff tour in some HQ Black Hole! Also the 'Gp Capt' pension is not the full story - one neeeds to check the specifics v carefully in each individual case- enjoy!

[southside]

I still fail to see any change. If I look back at my log book for a random month in 1983 I averaged 40 hrs flying. Nowadays its slightly less but some months its up with that figure. In the 1980's I completed back to back deployments to the FI which entailed 13 months deployed in a 16 month period. That still happens but not as much.

PVR rates are much the same. In 1995 the PVR rate was 2%...there was a slight peak in 2001 which took it up to 4% but it soon came back down and is now 2.5%. So, no change there then.

But I have to admit to sitting in shareholders and looking at the young guys there who are just starting their flying careers and wishing I was them. Im not going to be around to see the introduction of SCMR and the new CVF and the new T45. Shame.
A new class of ship, a new aircraft, a new weapon system in the FSGW. Rather than a bleak future I think the future of the FAA and the RN is particularly exciting. Wish I was 20 yrs younger.

[NR DROOP]

"A new class of ship, a new aircraft, a new weapon system in the FSGW. Rather than a bleak future I think the future of the FAA and the RN is particularly exciting. Wish I was 20 yrs younger."

Southside you truly are full of ##it !

The "young guys" in your Sqn will be drawing their pensions before the new carriers get afloat if delays in previous projects are anything to go by - if they get built at all !

[vecvechookattack]

No they wont. The next generation of JSF aircrew were selected last year and are starting their training. We have personnel working on CVN's (re)learning those essential skills.
The furture of the RN is very encouraging.

Have faith young man.

[cazatou]

"In 1995 the PVR rate was 2%"

Would that be because people were opting for the 1996 Redundancy package?

[Tamaze Man]

The next generation of JSF aircrew were selected last year and are starting their training.

What? Jet not in Service until ~2011/12! RN still trying to fill slots on GR9, so unless the RN has some kind of programme that selects JSF pilots prior to GCSEs I think you might be a little misled!

TM

[LFFC]

That doesn't compare very well against the historic norm of about 20%. When viewed with increased PVR figures, I bet heads are turning - but then again, maybe not! :ooh:

[CSRO]

"Unsustainable" is a good word for it. So what is anyone doing? The Army Apache fleet is hemorrhaging QHIs. Of interest it is the better operators who are pulling the plug as they feel unsupported from above and have had enough of trying to achieve so much with so little.

[The Rocket]

As an aside, is anyone else noticing how many times Vecvechookattack is answering direct posts to Southside in the first person?:rolleyes:

Sort your life out you muppet:hmm:

[Si Clik]

Of course this would have nothing to do with the imminent demise of the FRI in 12 months time and the very healthy pilot job market.

This is supply and demand but the feeling is, even where I live, that the floodgates are about to open.

Oh, and recruiting isn't exactly easy at the moment either!

Anyone got a solution, that's it lets have a comprehensive spending review...that will cheer everyone up no end.


:bored:

[The Gorilla]

Si Clik

Don't jest matey because Gordon the Plunderer is going to expect the £1 Billion that you guys are going to spend in Afghanistan to be paid back out of a future MOD budget.

Oh dear!!

:rolleyes:

[Si Clik]

Irrespective of any CSR pressures or the like.. which are no joke, the chasm I believe is starting to widen.

Have we finally started to see the straw break the proverbial camel and really at experience levels we can ill afford to lose with some of the challenges out there on the horizon.

Of course this is rather depressing for someone who has spent the best part of the last 18 months trying to get people through the door. It is still my firm belief that this is a great job to do with a lot to offer those who are highly motivated. Our present students are certainly very keen and are an example of what young people should be about.

But how do we keep them motivated and want to saty beyond the initial commision esepcially pilots!!
:hmm:

[Jambo Jet]

I may be talking complete drivvel, and I appologise if I am but I heard some guys at work talking of a CAS symposium and state of the nation type trawl looking at pay and FRI for pilots along the lines expected of Doctors in the RAF.

Probably horse-pooh.

:{ :{ :{ :{

[southside]

I keep hearing buzzes that the FRI will be canned after this years issue. Is there any trith in that?

[dallas]

It is a popular pastime of mischief makers to whip-up, exagerate, enhance or otherwise inflate rumours about 'everyone' leaving - I've seen it often during my career and indeed taken part, especially when trying to generate some kind of reaction from 'them' who hold the reins/budgets. We presume 'they' care enough to act and could not possibly stand around and see 'everyone' leave.

Of course this is never the case in reality - when some leave, others benefit in terms of promotion or eventual retention measures, thus regenerating the Service and, ironically, making it worthwhile for those who were probably going to stay anyway.

But this time it's serious.

Conditions, operational tempo, erosion of quality of life, eternal wheel reinvention - the list is long and no one thing can be blamed for the current and increasing exodus. But it is definitely happening and I'm not at all sure manning levels can be sustained. I don't have the graphs or the stats - I just know because every day somebody else takes me surprise and says they're on resettlement next week.

Behind those now leaving are a young and often inexperienced replacements, who are enthusiastic, naive but also unwilling to put up with consistently poor tools, conditions or management. They won't stay unless somebody directly correlates the effectiveness of the nation's defences to the quality of people serving and acts by investing in significantly more than just showy hardware.

Each week I sense I am stood on a mountain watching an avalanche of snow leave my side, heading to pastures new. But I am also conscious of being left behind on an over-exposed mountain top that can't simply be re-packed with snow when the storms come.

If things don't change radically, critical mass is coming.

[covec]

Dallas - re "conscious of being left behind": you have just articulated what I am starting to notice as a 40 something who has just embarked on his third flying tour after a protracted absence (2 x ground tours).

I am worried that everyone else knows somethin' I do not!!! (I am PAS & AFPS 05 however and signed to 55. They bought me!)

Regards:hmm:

[LAI]

As someone who is hoping to join the RAF in the very near future, this all worries me slightly. I'm starting to think that all the scare stories my parents told me, while trying to persuade me to get a "proper" job, are true!
Are things really this bad?
Perhaps, if everyone is leaving, I'll have a better chance of passing selection! :E

[Si Clik]

Southside,

Current FRI ends Mar 31 2007 no current plans exist to extend it.

LAI - its not all bad as there is definitely a worthwhile career to be had, its just that many are deciding to leave at about age 40 rather than sit it out to 55. Still lots of fun though!

Don't listen to us moaning old gits who have been around and done all the nice jobs and are now firmly in mangement land.

Si

[dallas]

LAI

I would say to anyone considering joining to try it and see what you think. Si Clik is right that there is still lots of fun in many places.

My point was that after the first couple of years of fun there needs to be more sustainable retention measures - these are the things that have been erroded since the 90s. There are still some perks but the relationship has become very one way, on top of increased workloads.

As with many large organisations communication is appalling, which I believe is the root cause of many of our current woes. Filling the gap is the rumour mill - at full throttle.

It's definitely worth a go and if you do a few years you'll take a lot of skills with you and see several 'interesting' places. It's not as much fun 20+ years on when you just tend to sigh at the latest bright idea that has missed the spot.

Lots of people I know have noticed you can get less screwed around - and I don't mean doing the core job - for more money, better quality of life and with the ability to actually speak to employers who perhaps listen, outside and are going sooner rather than later. But as Si intimated, it's probably a 30-something thing and very good for promotion for the likes of yourself!

[LAI]

I'm sure I will have great fun, if I get there! This is always what I have wanted to do, so I won't be put off so easily.
At the end of the day, the airlines won't let you turn them upside-down! :ok:

LAI

[flipster]

LAI

Yes, you will have a great time but please join with your eyes open. I can remember joining up and learning to fly Her Majesty's flying machines. Bl00dy great time! Also, I can remember not knowing (or caring) how much I was paid to 'see the world from upside down'. However, age changes you (along with partners and family) and so do your priorities. Today's Services are for 'singlies' and they don't greatly allow for family priorities. If you do eventually get hitched - you will have moral and monetary responsibilities too them which affect your decisions.

Furthermore, don't expect any loyalty from above. Most people above S/L level are only interested in one thing - THEMSELVES. So be prepared to be shafted and messed about something rotten. Always have a get out plan!

In the meantime, have a great time but always 'check six'! Good luck.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Having decided to leave last year, I start my new job tomorrow. It is fair to say that the grass isn't always greener, but staying in is more dust/sand than grass these days.

I would do it all again in an instant, but I wouldn't stay in now for all the tea in china.

All the best to those deploying to Afghanistan - hope your IRT/IDT/CCS skills come in handy!!

[Hoots]

Sadly folks I am sorry to say that I have to agree with most of the comments posted. I joined some 23 years ago and initially saw a decline from about 1987ish when the individual budgets became more apparent and the penny pinching started. Then there was the Bett report and all the other White papers (i.e. cutbacks). We had the redundancy schemes over-subscribed, mainly in the ground trades as it was dead-mans shoes for promotion (not that its changed any). Recently I have witnessed many of the best and most experienced aircrew in my particular "department" leave, morale is what I can only describle as an all time low. As more leave, from all trades it leaves less of us to do things such as Guard Duty and SDO etc. Serviceability rates are not great, and thats being generous, more hoops are being introduced to jumped through as we seem to be stats driven. Currency hoops for flying shouldn't be changed but have been, otherwise we would all be out of currency.

UNLESS THE POWERS TO BE, BOTH BLUE SUITED AND POLITICAL GET A GRIP THE SITUATION WILL IMPLODE.

The last thing anyone wants is for anyone to be killed due to lack of training/funding. The term acceptable risk seems to pop up more and more in the day to day running of things, tell that to a bereaved family. I am sure many people who come on here are in higher positions than me, so I want alarm bells to start going off. I could go on more but that would be too sensitive for on here.

Things will IMPLODE if things do not change. I still see myself as a loyal servant of HM Forces, even if loyalty is not a two way thing as I used to remember it.

I only place this blunt message because I care.