BA Cabin Crew...bring on the laughing stock!

[dontdoit]

Results are in from the BA Cabin Crew ballot on what is going to be their 1st major change in Terms and Conditions under Willie Walsh: the introduction of strict Abscence Management controls.

Even on such an important issue, the poor dears could only manage 1070 "No" votes out of a massive 14 000 Cabin Crew community.

Surely this proves to WW once and for all how industrially spineless they are, and it's got to be a matter of weeks before there's a full-on assault on their ridiculous "rewards" package.

Bring it on...and to those Cabin Crew in BA, be afraid, be very afraid, you have just turned yourselves into the laughing stock of the industry!

[Carnage Matey!]

I presume you don't work for BA then. With their large net paypackets and easy working conditions I'd say they're the envy of most cabin crew, not a laughing stock. How many No votes did the pilots manage for AMP?

[Llademos]

Sounds like democracy to me. Just because the ballot hasn't gone your way doesn't mean that it is wrong!

[Angus Meecoat]

What an idiot, what exactly is this ridiculous rewards package, and why should any BA cabin crew be afraid, they do a good job and get paid the going rate for it, whats wrong with that. Last time I looked BA Cabin Crew were starting on K9 basic, how ridiculous is that.

We should all be standing together, Pilots and Cabin Crew to get our T&Cs improved not knocking each others remuneration packages. Why do people continually come on these forums and knock what people earn, are they jeolous, did they not get past the interview stage, what is it.

In reality Pilots and Cabin Crew salarys/pensions have continued to fall way behind other similar professional occupations over the years while working harder and longer, wake up guys we are not well paid in comparison. Even the laziest f*****s on the planet MPs are ready to vote themselves a 22% increase.

If all WW was brought in for was to take on the staff and reduce T&Cs then he is in for a long battle, we will see how spineless people are then, it might have worked at EI, but it wont work at BA. Watch this space

[peeinyourpocket]

Angus

They may be paying a starting salary of 9k, but I disagree with your assertion that they are paid the "going rate".

The overall cost of cabin crew within BA is far too high, when you compare them to other airlines.

Have a look at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline_data/2003Annual/Table_1_14_Airline_Personnel_Cost_UK_and_Overseas_2003.pdf

......or search on the CAA's website for "personnel cost" and you will find the table.

The CAA table shows that in 2003 BA paid its cabin crew members, on average £27,800.

In the same year Virgin Atlantic paid their cabin crew, on average £16,800.

Thats a whopping £11,000 each higher than a UK based competitor, or for around 14000 cabin crew, £154 million more than the "going rate".

[TopBunk]

Carnage Matey

How many No votes did the pilots manage for AMP?

I don't remember getting to vote!

[africacore]

We didnt get a vote :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Angus Meecoat]

Again we're missing the point. BA are paid the proper going rate the job deserves, VA are not paid enough.

Instead of carping about how much BA are paid we should be campaigning to get VAs money up there aswell.

[Bucking Bronco]

Angus

The going rate by definition = Industry norm surely?

That said, the pay at BA ensures that CC stay longer and as a result we get to retain some really top people; unfortunately it also gets to mean that we retain a minority of absolute dross who don't deserve penny.

[Re-Heat]

Again we're missing the point. BA are paid the proper going rate the job deserves, VA are not paid enough.
Please, somebody! This comedian is too much for us!

Economics 101:

www.bized.ac.uk/educators/16-19/economics/wages/presentation/labmarket1.ppt

[Anti-ice]

don'tdoit - Go and get a life :rolleyes:

60% of BA crew are on the new contract (£10-15000) and nearly 50% of the 'old lot' are part time, so the huge amounts of money you seem to think they earn are rubbish.

Shorthaul crew do 50-60 duty hours a week and those that do have expensive cars etc are normally massively in debt/married well.

The majority are hardworking people with lives just like anybody else.

Ive been there 15 years and have a 1 bed house in a cr*p area and a secondhand high mileage car - so please , stop talking s***e and ask yourself if you'll ever find happiness ,as with the attitude you possess i doubt anyone would want to come within 50 feet of you.
Actually,make that miles :rolleyes:

peeinyourpocket , VS staff are VASTLY underpaid - particularly the in-charge crew members, and seeing as there is a current exodus of staff from VS to BA - they have seen the light.

you are also not taking into account the fact that BA has many staff who have been there over 20 years while VS has none.

RB is too busy buying rockets/mobile phones and plastering his name on everything possible to care about his VS staff , and they are long overdue a decent salary.

If it makes you feel any better, loads of BA staff are retiring in the next 12 months.:rolleyes:

[Carnage Matey!]

Where did you dig out the £10k to £15K figure? Most new contract are on basic of around £9 to £10.5K but we all know that nobody on EF takes home less than £1500 pcm unless they're having a really bad month, which works out at an annual equivalent salary of around £22K to £25K, which is rather good money I think.

Also the 50-60 hour duty week is only if you're worked everyday and don't get non-opped (given a free day off for non-BA speakers). The 50-60 hour weeks are only there because your union insist on it to protect your allowances. You could easily accomplish your weeks flying in less than 40 hours but BASSA insist you have your lengthy turnarounds to ensure you scoop up those dinner allowances.

[sixmilehighclub]

CarrnageMatey is speaking the truth.

This thread however is turning into the regular monthly slanging match on who earns what, who deserves what..... etc..... Yawn!!

dontdoit, so why do you think the BA cabin crew are the laughing stock of the industry? I can't see your point. Please explain.

I would also be quite interested to hear your view on exactly which points within the new BA 'absence management controls' you speak of, that are to make the cabin crew 'afraid'. Clearly you have inside knowledge of these 'controls' so please enlighten the rest of us.

Oh and by the way
on what is going to be their 1st major change in Terms and Conditions under Willie Walsh: the introduction of strict Abscence Management controls.
What is GOING to be? Isn't it already in place dontdoit??

[peeinyourpocket]

Angus

These are the CAA sourced figures that you obviously refuse to believe:

Airline.............................Average expenditure per head

BMI..................................15600
Brittania...........................17100
British Airways.................27800
Easyjet............................15300
Monarch..........................14300
My Travel.........................17400
Thomas Cook...................13300
Virgin Atlantic...................16800
Others..............................11700

The figures clearly show that BA cabin crew are paid, on average, well over £10000 per head more per year than their competitors. I am sure that WW will be aware of such figures.

Anti-ice, I believe that Virgin Atlantic started in 1984. So, they could have staff who have been there for 21 years. Why would there be an "exodus" of Virgin staff, unless the total pay for a new-joiner at BA is exceeding that for a senior at Virgin? You say "I've been there 15 years and have a 1 bed house in a cr*p area and a secondhand high mileage car"........well change your lifestyle, or change your job, or accept that as your lot in life!!

Of course I am sure tha Willie Walsh knows that if he wasnt paying the BA cabin crew more than their competitors, he could use that £150 million to either pay for a new B747-400 every year or pay dividends to share holders.

[keeperboy]

Peeinyourpocket, your CAA figures represent expenditure per head, not salary. So those figures would include company pension contributions etc.

Also, there is a huge variation in Cabin Crew pay. Some on the 'old old' contracts take home ridiculous amounts, many more than the Flight Crew. Then you have the 'old contractors' who again are taking home quite a bit more than the average stew.

Then you have those on the 'new contract' who also take home more than the industry average, but comparitive to other countries 'flag carriers'. For example Qantas Vs Virgin Blue, Iberia Vs Futura, Lufthansa Vs Condor, KLM Vs Martinair etc etc.

So these variations in pay HUGELY dilute the 'average' of BA cabin crew pay as you cannot compare the net take home pay of a Heathrow long-haul CSD on an 'old old' contract with that of a new starter at LGW EOG.

[Angus Meecoat]

peeinyourpocket, I have read my threads again and again and nowhere do I mention that I "refuse to believe" anything, what planet are you on pal.

Your just confirmimg what I said, theres people like you and re heat get on these forums and complain about what people earn WHY!!!, can we have a trick cyclist on who can maybe give us an explanation to the condition of these poor people.

BA are paid about right end of story, the other airlines you mention are not paid enough.

[Suggs]

BA CC are ridiculously over paid, forget about their basic, look at the package We have people in the job who been in so long that they can only see as far as the bottom right corner of their pay slips.

The first thing that they find out in their briefings is the amount of dosh that they are going to earn that trip!

Customer Service for the vast majority has been institutionally demoted.

I was so pleased when the AMP was introduced. CC go sick at the drop of a hat. It's about time they got sorted.

All they think about is how quickly they can get into the bunk to count their dosh.

[Carnage Matey!]

You forgot getting on the bus and asking us to be 15 minutes late so they can get a CAT or Box payment.

[atyourcervix73]

Hey suggs, did you get a reject letter from BA?

The simple truth is that BA employ their cabin crew on the basis of collective contracts.

Counting the dosh?....wouldnt you if you were given the chance?

Poor customer service?....None of the other UK airlines stand out in any way ( no excuse, but its right through the UK service industry)

Overpaid?...Nope, just strong collective bargining...ask BALPA, the BA pilots aren't complaining.

This thread has really bought the jealousy and bitterness out in people who feel it neccesary to cut down the tall poppy. Its really such a shame. Im sure the moaners on here would be the first in line to complain about just about anything, why things arent fair?....why didnt my mother love me?....

Get used to it, life aint fair:cool:

[Kengineer-130]

so what if BA cabin crew get paid more?? so what if the pilots get paid more?? If you don't like it either apply for a job or stop moaning!!! You wan;t to earn as much money as you can?? When was the last time you said to your boss, ohh, no take £300 back you are paying me far too much :rolleyes:

[normal_nigel]

Sod the money, its much more fun wallowing in BASSA's humiliation.

[atyourcervix73]

Have to agree with Nigel here.....BASSA...(the union bigwigs) a bunch of Stalinist, card carrying, 2 jobs when one will do...muppets:p

Just out of interest, how come loads of union officials seem to be Scottish, and born in Glasgow?:ugh:

[Re-Heat]

Your just confirmimg what I said, theres people like you and re heat get on these forums and complain about what people earn WHY!!!
Er no - you brought it up Angus. I posted a link on why what you get is above a market rate, and not that VA is underpaid, and ridiculed your understanding of pay in the labour market.

[keeperboy]

i have to agree, VA are not paid the market rate, they are vastly underpaid. I do not know of any airlines long haul crew that take home so little.

Oh, I am BA long haul crew at LHR.

My basic salary per month is GBP872.00. (Gross, before any deductions)

Minus the tax, NI, pension etc, then tell me how you can't understand why we are concerned about our allowences or picking up a few extra quid from a box payment or CAT!!!!!!

PS. I don't like BASSA's methods of working either. Sometimes I cringe at how bully-ish they can be in their magazine or on their website.

And many others would agree. Those that have access to the BASSA site chatroom would see many a debate amongst crew unhappy with BASSA's handling on many matters. Their comments on the Gate Gourmet fiasco springs to mind.

But when it matters, they are effective. If the ballot concerned more 'important' matters to crews, such as money or T&C's, the turnout would have been much higher.

And this is why 12,000+ mainline crew are still paid up members.

However, most of us were not against EG300 (so long as we had the safeguards negotiated by BASSA) so didn't really see the need to vote, especially as BA were giving us a financial sweetner (that had already gone into our bank account!) and BASSA were recommending our acceptance anyway.

Now I will cop a boll*cking from my collegues for this, but I didnt vote for or against EG300 as I wasn't too bothered either way. But if the vote had been about getting rid of box payments or reducing days off I would have had my vote sent back by special delivery!

[monkeyhead]

I know what you mean Keeper.

My partner is BA long-haul crew on the post 1997 (new mainline) contract.

I always laugh when I see people on here posting 'BA crew always go sick'. Because he can't afford to, even when he really IS ill.

You see, he typically takes home around £1700-£2000 per month after deductions.

But if he is ill for the month, he could walk away with £800 for the month!!

And there is no truth in 'just going ill for the un-profitable trips'. Because if you go ill for that trip you ALSO lose your next two trips, one of which is pretty much guaranteed to be lucrative.

So, yeh I think BA crew are better paid than the average. But BA certainly get their pound of flesh out of the crews as well!

[52049er]

Keeperboy - sounds like you live in the real world so watch out for BASSA claiming the credit for the 'safeguards'. CC are now on the same AMP as everyone else - the changes brought in which led to BASSA signing up were not BASSA's result - all unions were involved in renegotiations as agreed when we all signed up.

FWIW my own view is that good CC are worth their weight in allowances - maybe I've been lucky but I've flown with some very good BA CC recently.

[normal_nigel]

so long as we had the safeguards negotiated by BASSA

Point of order.

All changed to the new AMP were negotiated by the unions involved and NOT BASSA/CC89.

The EG300 signed up for by BASSA is identical to the one agreed by the other unions over 6 months of talks.

This is a FACT. BASSA have lied and spun it as usual.

[Suggs]

No, been in BA a while, but not long enough that if they change the pension agreements I won't be stuffed. I heard that the new boys pension projection was very very small.

I just don't see why I should be carrying a bunch of precious pre madonna's who are institutionalised, a bloated management
and militant ground ops (LHR).

Lgw however is much much much better in all respects.

I just want a secure job and pension and if BA is reformed to support that, everyone else can then demand to earn vastly inflated salaries above market rate.

[keeperboy]

SUGGS: :ok:

From the BASSA site (yes I know some people will say I shouldnt be pasting it but if we are discussing something lets all know what it is we are discussing about!):

The result of our postal ballot on EG 300 was a "yes" vote. However, this ballot result could be declared null and void if BA do not adhere strictly to what was agreed - evidence has reached us today that, alarmingly, this is currently not the case. BASSA originally recommended acceptance, on the understanding that the policy towards cabin crew sickness would be as outlined in the separate document that accompanied EG300 and it would be reviewed at a fortnightly meeting. 72 hours after the ballot closed BA (Fleet) management seem to be reneging on what was agreed.
BA (Industrial Relations) management have, tonight, promised an immediate meeting to rectify the problem, we will let you know the outcome of this meeting.
Once again, it appears we have been let down by Fleet management, who seem to want to continue their policy of bullying the crew at every opportunity. If we are not satisfied with the outcome of our meeting with IR then we will be issuing another ballot with the opposite recommendation.
The BASSA Branch Committee

So if all this is lies, who the hell do you rely on for the truth?

[normal_nigel]

KB

FACTS

A seperate document exists with advice on how to implement the policy, TRUE.

Management are ignoring it (PROBABLY)

Policy is different for CC and changes were negotiated by BASSA. LIES.

The policy is identical in every way as negotiated by the TU's who originally singed up for it.

Incidentally BALPA still has not "agreed" the new policy as they apparently are waiting to see about a side document, the only thing BASSA negotiated.

[Suggs]

KB

And what really annoys me is the nonsense that I have to listen to down route, while I keep my trap shut, for fear of offending them!

[sixmilehighclub]

DONTDOIT has posted a thread to start an arguement, and proabaly sits there laughing at everyone on here now scoring points against eachother and telling everyone out there, including any journos, about any insecurities and problems in CRM and within management and policies at BA.

Anyone noticed dontdoit hasnt been back on to comment since the original post? They may have pointed the original gun, but it's us lot who supply the bullets and shoot.

We've ended up covering the same tired old discussions and conflicts, again.........!

Lets give it up guys and talk about something worthwhile!

Six


:*

[dontdoit]

On the contrary, I posted originally to highlight how weak the BA Cabin Crew now are collectively from an Industrial point of view.

They have proved that they will now be "easy pickings" when the big axe comes a-swinging for their exisiting Terms and Conditions.

If I was WW, I know which group in BA I would be targetting first. I wish him well, the tide appears to be running in his favour.

[Da Dog]

Maybe for once BASSA are saving their energy for the fight ahead and a battle that might just be worth winning;)

[keeperboy]

I, like many crew, abstained from the vote on EG300.

However, if WW tried to enforce a change to our T&C's or money I would support industrial action in a flash.

I don't think this EG300 issue has any correlation with a weakening of a collective bargaining position.

[Classic]

I always laugh when I see people on here posting 'BA crew always go sick'. Because he can't afford to, even when he really IS ill.
You see, he typically takes home around £1700-£2000 per month after deductions.

But if he is ill for the month, he could walk away with £800 for the month!!

Am I the only one to have my jaw drop to the floor on reading this? No wonder the airline needs drastic changes.

On you go, Willie.

[BYMONEK]

Classic

Curious to know what exactly it is that's made your jaw drop. The £800 being too low or the £2000 being too high?
:confused:

[miche2]

Having worked for BA in the past I can confidentally say that a) BA crews are good at moaning about conditions etc, but few stand by their beds when it matters and b) yes, BA crews get paid well, BUT the claimed £27,000 is very variable. Any aircrew salary is dependent on the trips done -if a crew member goes sick for 3 or 4 weeks then their salary is pennies.

[keeperboy]

Miche I agree with you, to a point. Those at BA from the generation you refer to DO moan all the time with only the likes of a season at B Cal in the 70's to compare their terrible conditions at BA with. Not all of tem I hasten to add. Just the ones that have been doing the job too long and hate it, but need to pay their masive mortgages and kids private school fees.

The majority of us that have joined in the last ten years are a little more in the real world. Many of us (myself included) have worked for other airlines like bmi and Virgin etc etc where we know what BAD conditions really are. So most of us do appreciate what we have at BA.

And you are spot on about the money while sick. Which is why I don't understand why cabin crew sickness is so bad??? :confused: Because, if we are not at work flying, we earn pennies. So, is it people on the massive basic salary old contracts dragging the rest of our sickness stats down because they can afford to?

[ChewyTheWookie]

I am new contract crew on EF at LHR and I take home about £1600 in an average month.

However, I don't end up with a lot left after I've paid out:

£650 a month rent on a crap house near the airport
£150 council tax and bills
£200 food/household
£100 petrol
£100 insurance etc...

Doesn't exactly leave me a lot left does it? Considering I drive an 8 year old car and don't have any loans or debts to pay off...

It's not a case of BA cc being paid too much, it's a case of the others being paid too little. Even on my BA salary there is no way on earth i will be able to afford to buy a house or even save for a deposit so how can i possibly survive if my pay was cut?

[lisat]

Dontdoit (or should I call you BA reject) if you had your facts right then you'd know that the reason people didn't object to eg300 is because the union advised us to accept it as no-one wants another BA strike. As for us being weak with accepting terms and conditions how do u explain us being the airline with the best terms and conditions?

Sad isn't it when people get so pathetic that they have to sl*g everyone else off to make themselves feel better about themselves

GET A LIFE!!

As for everyone else, please don't give dontdoit the satisfaction of your replies.

[Bang Or West]

Hang about, we're talking about the price of UNSKILLED LABOUR here, you know, the sort you can train in 2 weeks. How's that worth mega-money?

[lisat]

yeh, unskilled labour that goes through a selection process where about 2 in every hundred get through, and thousands more are waiting to get in. so unskilled that I flew with an ex accountant yesterday, who'd given up his 85k salary to work for BA. So unskilled that numerous amounts of people have degrees or have priceless experience in other areas. So unskilled that everyday I work with some of the most intelligent and greatest people that i've ever come across.

Get my drift yet?

If u think skills have to come with certificates with grades on then I think u need to look a bit closer at your own skills.


:ok:

[Human Factor]

lisat,

So unskilled that numerous amounts of people have degrees or have priceless experience in other areas. So unskilled that everyday I work with some of the most intelligent and greatest people that i've ever come across.

That's as maybe. The fact remains though that they don't need degrees or the priceless experience in other areas. Sure, a company will certainly choose experienced, educated people above those who aren't when it has a choice, but the fact remains that those they choose don't need to be skilled.

[Hand Solo]

So unskilled that everyday I work with some of the most intelligent and greatest people that i've ever come across.

Thats the nicest thing you've ever said about the pilots.
:p

[Classic]

I know a retired solicitor who works 3 nights a week stacking shelves at Sainsbury's! It's totally unskilled work, whether you're a brain surgeon or a no qualifications academic failure. The same principle applies here.

[keeperboy]

Hang on.....

This debate is getting onto another tangent again before the previous issue is settled.

Skilled or unskilled? Who cares?!

Is a supermodel 'skilled labour'?

But to all of you who have claimed previously in this post that we are OVERPAID and than VS BD etc is the 'NORM'. All of you who claim we are overpaid prima donnas. Now that you know our basic salary (ie the one we can rely on rain, hail or shine) means we can take home £800 per month. The one that is taken into consideration for pensions, mortgages etc.

So, what do you think? Overpaid. Outrageously OTT terms and conditions?

[bushbolox]

ERm excuse me i'm still waiting for the orange juice i asked for , can you stop gossiping in the galley and get me a drink. Now thats a skill you seem to have lost at lhr.

[Ropey Pilot]

lisatyeh, unskilled labour that goes through a selection process where about 2 in every hundred get through, and thousands more are waiting to get in. so unskilled that I flew with an ex accountant yesterday, who'd given up his 85k salary to work for BA. So unskilled that numerous amounts of people have degrees or have priceless experience in other areas. So unskilled that everyday I work with some of the most intelligent and greatest people that i've ever come across.........If u think skills have to come with certificates with grades on then I think u need to look a bit closer at your own skills

Sorry, haven't followed most of the thread but I do just love your logic:

2 in every hundred get through: That proves that the terms and conditions are so attractive that huge numbers of people want them - leans towards suggesting you are paid too much.

gave up his 85K salary: again this suggests that large amounts of money are available for doing less than elsewhere

If u think skills have to come with certificates with grades on/numerous amounts of people have degrees: But your point is that people have degrees and that proves they are not unskilled:confused:

And as others have pointed out that simply means that some people who work for you have attained skills elswhere - unless they are a job requirement that isn't particularly relevent.

But on the whole pay issue would it be a stab in the dark to say that your basic is woefully low but extras are ridiculously high?

[bushbolox]

Ah the old "we are highly qualified in the cabin" chestnut. Been done to death elsewhere. Suffice to say the piloting skills that cabin crew seem to think are a mere trade , are essential to not killing everyone. A barristers knowlege of the finer points of Uk common law are not essential to "chicken or fish", or even as a team member in an emergency. An emergency i might add that will be avoided or reduced mainly due to the "tradesmen" at the front. As for selection, well my experience as ex cabin crew , now flight crew, is that in the many interviews i have attended, its more about being a woolly carer and impressing the Gentlemen of Soddom than any kind of talent.

And before the usual " whats the matter did you fail ba" nonesense is presented as a put down, the answer is no.:E

[keeperboy]

Put it this way ropey.

If I was given the option of a decent annual pensionable salary, with a fair share of work and trips, I would take that any day compared to the woefully low basic pay and extremely high (unpensionable) extras scenario.

As for skilled vs unskilled.

I am 'skilled' in the sense that I have a law degree/background.

However.............

I don't consider myself 'skilled' at anything in relation to cabin crew. I dont think it requires certain 'skills' more certain personal attributes that perhaps most cabin crew have more than others. I think I do the job well, and that it certainly takes some a high degree of patience, diplomacy, independence and resiliance. But 'skills'? Nope.

Skilled/unskilled is just another pointless label.

[sixmilehighclub]

This thread is turning into a circus.........

Some people can afford to get PPL/CPL/ATPL training, some can't.

Some people have medical conditions and injuries which prevent them having certain jobs they may want.

Some work their ar$es off in a well respected skilled job only to wake up one day and realise there's more to life.

Some of you should be ashamed of yourself. So many different people working in aviation are ppruners. The way you slate one persons job could make another person feel worthless and useless.

No part of aviations operation could survive without all the different departments pulling together and doing their bit. You only have to look at one department standing down and striking to see this!!

If a cabin crew member, or aircraft cleaner, dispatcher or engineer, etc decides to take on pilot training to get their licence, do they suddenly become intelligent. No. They just have knowledge of another subject. Most people have the intelligence to learn, just either choose not to or can't afford to.

If any of you were really intelligent, you'd know that its a very 'simple' and childish thing to do to insult someone.

Besides, look at what impact the idiot that started this thread had made. Exactly, they are intelligent as they knew by posting what they did, would start a virtual brawl amongst others and then sit back and observe the arguements. Wake up everyone!!

The word Skill : To be knowing; to have understanding; to be dexterous in performance

Rant over

:*

[keeperboy]

sixmilehigh :ok: :ok: :ok:

Fantastic post and too bloody right as well.

[bushbolox]

OOO well I never,dont get me started on cleaners.
Now can I have the glass of orange i asked for abeam cairo.

[TightSlot]

Depressingly, this thread is beginning to show signs of becoming QANTAS-like in the degree of unpleasantness that the contributors show to each other. Consider these points:

Everybody has the right to hold a view, whether you agree with it or not.
If you disagree with somebody, then argue the point, not the person
Generalisations about other jobs, genders, groups, intellects (in brief - people) will tend to make you look more foolish than those that you mock
Good crews work as good teams within the scope of the clearly defined chain of command. Everybody knows those who manage this well and those who always seem to have problems.

You may not like these ideas, and may even disagree with them - it is entirely up to you (i.e. I haven't posted them here as a discussion point): However, may I urge you to post on this thread with consideration and courtesy, to avoid intervention by the mods? For your reference, sixmilehighclub seems to catch this wave nicely above.

Many thanks - over and out. ;)

[Rescue 137]

Sixmilehighclub-Probaly one of the best posts Ive seen on prune.I see you are very wise.You will have all the ppruners queueing up now.:E

[Birds2perches]

I've worked for 4 other major airlines in the UK from Charter to Scheduled. I'm on the new contract. Initally I took a bit of a pay cut to go to BA on £9K but it has steadily increased. At LHR I am now taking home £400-500 per month more and work is a hell of a lot easier. The conditions are far, far better than any other airline in the UK. If BA are the laughing stock why do so many crew in the industry want to work for them? If BA want to stay in the business they need to do exactly what evey other large company is doing. Operate profitably.

[ChewyTheWookie]

I daresay a waiter at the Savoy earns more than a waiter at Pizza Hut... Still pretty much the same job.

If everyone was paid the same it would be called communism...

[Flying_Sarah747]

Skilled, unskilled, smart, dumb, good worker, useless working whateverrrrrrrrrrrr, if this:

BMI..................................15600
Brittania...........................17100
British Airways.................27800
Easyjet............................15300
Monarch..........................14300
My Travel.........................17400
Thomas Cook...................13300
Virgin Atlantic...................16800
Others..............................11700

is the going rate of all these airlines in the UK, you must be a fool if you choose to work for anybody but BA!

So as I always say...get a life you silly, jealous people.

P.S. Our new absence policy is not that bad at all, and the only way you'll get into the 'disciplinary stages' is if you seriously take advantage of the system. So they paid us a bonus for something that's turned out not to be bad at all...Sorry to dissapoint you all...

[BYMONEK]

flying_Sarah747

From your comment that "you must be a fool if you choose to work for anybody but BA" merely shows a lack of understanding regarding the salaries you quote.
Your prime reason for working there i'd imagine is money, otherwise I doubt you'd quote money. Nothing wrong with that. None of us go to work for the love of it! You do, however, show a somewhat naive and ignorant approach with a very rude and pompous reply.
Rude in that, although hard to believe, yes, there are actually people out there who choose not to work for BA for one reason or another. So don't slate them.
Pompous, in that you obviously think yourself to be better than those that don't work for BA.
And ignorant, because the figures you quote in no way reflect an accurate comparison for all new Airline joiners.Therefore hardly the 'going rate' as you put it. What you've quoted is statistical data compiled from CAA in regards to the 'average' salary paid to Cabin Crew in the Company. Considering the 'experience' of many of your more senior collegues, it's hardly surprising there is such a big difference. Virgin, as far as i'm aware, havn't got that many Girls and boys in there fifties. Nor have any of 'the others'!

You shouldn't call other people silly before ensuring your own facts and figures are correct.
:hmm:

[Flying_Sarah747]

So it's ok for people to have a go at my airline, but when I stand up for us I'm rude, pompous and ignorant!

That's fair! :hmm:

[BYMONEK]

Why lower yourself to other peoples level?. If you want to defend against the 'BA bashers' ( and I know there are many), rise above the bait and give a valid argument. Slating others will not endear you to many here and will dilute your credibility in reasoning. Your inclusion of salaries merely weakens your own argument about defending BA's pay structure. People out there already feel that as Cabin Crew you're overpaid and you've strengthened that belief.

I know from experience that although important, it's not just the money that makes BA the most sort after. It's the terms and conditions that play a huge part as well.

Regards

BYMONEK :cool:

[nurjio]

The "statistical data" compiled by the CAA to highlight comparative average pay rates just proves that the BA CC high-end earners are vastly overp.............zzzzzzzzzzz

230 all out.

[flyer55]

I totally disagree with BA Crew being paid too much are these figures based on LHR based crew , who are on different contracts from LGW crew mainly EF LGW !

[Birds2perches]

Please don't take my comment the wrong way flyer as I'm really not into all this personal slatery. The forum is here for people to express their views, but would you in all honesty, turn down a job at BA because you disapprove of the fact that they're paid more than others in the business. After all, aren't we here to earn good money? Yes, we like our jobs too but I for one, am going to seek the contact that pays the most. And, I'm on the new one which is pretty good. The new absense policy isn't that bad either as someone said earlier.

[flyer55]

I wont take it the wrong way but think ALL Cabin Crew should should be paid a decent amount as they deserve it and Insurance Companies seemingly rate Cabin Crew as a High Risk Job!

[Carnage Matey!]

I'd agree, I've seen the way most of you drive. In terms of risk to your lives, well I suppose you could die of boredom sitting in Compass all day!

[TightSlot]

Light blue touch paper and retire a safe distance, eh Carnage?:E

[flybywire]

Carnage Matey wrote: Where did you dig out the £10k to £15K figure? Most new contract are on basic of around £9 to £10.5K but we all know that nobody on EF takes home less than £1500 pcm unless they're having a really bad month, which works out at an annual equivalent salary of around £22K to £25K, which is rather good money I think.

I am assuming you are talking about LHR.

[Rescue 137]

Have to agree with Bymonek here.Sarah you wasnt defending BA with your comment,you was slagging everybody else off who works for any other airline other than BA as a fool.Not a great comment and likely to win you any favours or support.Up until that Point I tend to agree with BA crew. Sarah that makes me think that you think you are Eliteist and better than any other person who works for any other airline.


Just because you work for BA doesnt make you any better person than someone who works for Virgin.BA has a lot of older CC who have been in BA years on the old contracts.Virgin is only 20 years old and I dont think there is a 20 year Veteran CC there so the figures dont give a correct representative.

Did you know the Average London Wage is £32,000 pound a year.How many peope do you know earn that amount of money a year.Figures arent always correct or show the whole truth.

[Flying_Sarah747]

Ok, fair enough, I apologise for that comment, but I meant it as in that anyone in their right mind would want the position with the most money, just didn't quite say it right maybe.

[Badly Dressed Nigel]

:* I have to say I continue to be amazed at the attention that BA CC and our alleged renumeration attracts.
It is as if you are offended by our our pay and conditions. If this is indeed the case, take a deep breath, and get over it.

If you wish to apply, join the massive queue.


Oh, and our acceptance of EG300 is a sensible decision given the present climate at BA. It leaves us free to fight other battles as they present themselves.
If you have read recent media reports, Mr Walsh has started a cull of senior managers within BA, hence it is prudent to take a back seat for the time being.

For all the jealousy, and sniping at BA CC, wouldn't you rather work for a workforce that is protected by a strong union, or would you rather work for one looked after by CC89?

[Hand Solo]

After months of extensive negotiation and vociferous opposition BASSA ended up with exactly the same AMP that the rest of the company negotiated some months earlier. I'd rather have CC89 negotiating!

Now where did the CSD on the A321 go?

[ChewyTheWookie]

Where did BA's dream of fixed links go? I think the A321 CSD might have taken them when they left...

[apaddyinuk]

I always have to laugh at how people GENERALISE BA crew as being overpaid. Forget old contract now as it is indeed in the minority to the new contract which I am on.

I live in London which we all know as being one of the most expensive cities in Europe if not the world, I certainly do not live beyond my means but I still barely scrape by each month as I need to have a car and I rent. I certainly can not afford to place a morgage for anything within a few hundred miles of my report base which is just impracticle. I also pay a lot more for my staff travel than most other airlines do!!!!

Now I know I could not survive on what some crew with other airlines earn and fair play to those who make it work for them. I certainly would not be in this job if there was a set standard of pay industry wide which matched some of BA's competition.

Now all of us here (except all the BA bashers who probably are not even crew themselves but just like sticking it to the big guy)know that our job is a fair bit harder than just dishing out a few meals at 30000 feet. If the average london salary is £32000 then I am certainly under this (and I am worldwide LHR crew) so think of it this way......Im not overpaid.....perhaps all the rest of you are UNDERPAID!!!! I personally think you are! I was lucky that I got BA, You could be lucky and apply for them too for the money,if the moneys not important to you then quit complaining!

[ifleeplanes]

I find it interesting that the average BA CC salary is more than many pilots get paid in other airlines and companies....

[apaddyinuk]

Ifeeplanes....tell me, which airlines would that be? In that case these airlines obviously pay their pilots less then what rail companies pay their train drivers....I suggest that if you want any credibility on this website that you should perhaps provide facts for your crazy statements as the one above is a lie!!! And also remember what I said about OLD contract crew being the minority now compared to NEW contract crew whom I am sure do not earn anything near what most western airlines pay their fully trained pilots!!!!

HOWEVER, If you are referring to the minority of the crew who are on old contract then yes, there are some who are on more than even some of BA's own first officers but these crew certainly do not make up the average wage for the rest of us. But can you blame them for joining a company back in the age when perhaps this was an acceptable salary for a flight attendant? No I dont think you can, they were lucky to have joined when they did and no amount of petty jealous bitching should be allowed to take that away from them!!!

[OzzieO]

What really amazes me about this forum and the "BA BASHERS" is that people actually take the bait time after time!

Let them have there little rant, let them bash BA cabin crew to their hearts content, makes them feel better for having really dull boring lives........and tiny dicks.

[ifleeplanes]

APADDYINUK...have a look at the salaries of the air taxi pilots, the flight instructor pilots, many of the turbo prop operators, the new joiners into some of the low cost airlines. These are guys and gals who have often paid out £50000-£60000 to get their licenses in the first place, and often nowdays a further £20,000 + for a type rating.

For your info ( and my credibility....:hmm:

BA Cityexpress Turboprob FO year 1 20,808 - Year 12 £29,589
Air Southwest FO Year 1 £18000 -Year 5 £27053
Air Wales FO Base £28000
Eastern Airlines FO Year 1 £18160 -Top £28790
Flightline FO £29400 plus £750 pa in service
FlyBE FO Year 1 £26191 Year 15 £34066
Logan Air FO Year 1 £21950 Year 12 £27300

and many many more

Its your guys/gals that are making quotes of £27k plus on here...Im just a bystander reading it....but it does nothing for your cause or credibility when your earning way more than other airlines CC and more than many pilots.

Good luck to you with your salary, I am pleased for you , it was mearly an observation I was making. Most of the cabin crew in airlines I have ever come across seem to earn a pittance.

[EI-CFC]

In fairness, none of those airlines come near touching BA in terms of scale..

[ifleeplanes]

So working for a big company should equate to a larger salary??? Best go work for Microsoft then....I would equate a pilots responsibilty to being far higher than a member of CC and as such so should their pay, no matter what the airline.....

NO disrespect to CC intended you do an excellent job !!!

[Suggs]

http://www.BAcanAffordtoPay.com/index.html

If anyone is unaware of the strength of feeling in BA towards managements drive to destroy our pension, then they should have a look at the above link.

After of course that they have read everything on PPrune!

[DarkStar]

I think BA CC deserve more money, especially allowances because the cost of living in the U.K is spiraling out of control and many have to commute long distances to get to their base. Oh yes, the overseas allowances are becoming less attractive, has anyone actually tried to have proper meals in the hotel? And now there's AMP to worry about.

Here's to a prosperous New Year to BA CC ....they deserve it for the excellent service they give our passengers.

[Classic]

I think BA CC deserve more money, especially allowances because the cost of living in the U.K is spiraling out of control and many have to commute long distances to get to their base. Oh yes, the overseas allowances are becoming less attractive, has anyone actually tried to have proper meals in the hotel? And now there's AMP to worry about.

Long live irony!

[jerrystinger]

These BA related topics seem to go around in circles. Let's just summarise, accept the facts and leave BA alone.

It needs to be accepted as fact no 1 that BA is an important feature of aviation due its heritage, network and passenger numbers.

It is also fact that it is a management heavy business and that its flight crews (pilots/cabin staff) are probably (currently) some of the most overpaid group of employees - which is why other airline employees shown their annoyance on forums like these. While well remunerated it is also fact that BA employees claim to work for a profitable airline, but they seem to forget their company has an out-of-control 1 billion pound + pension deficit!

Another fact is BA has always offered mediocre customer service compared to other airlines, but people use them as they are an established and comfortable choice for passengers.

These all facts and people should just accept them rather than these forums going round in circles!

[Da Dog]

Jerry.................... history shows you write cr@p at every available moment. FD and CC overpaid and our poor peers underpaid:confused:

I dunno lets look at tuggies £28K plus overtime, and they are never there when you want one, lets compare that to some of the other "operators"` at LHR and LGW where you start on 16K and err finish on 16K. Maybe our dedicated loaders might want to work for the miniumum wage. Or lets look at the real noose around our necks and thats the teirs upon tiers of managment who bleed this company dry:yuk: :{

Still at least WW is starting at the right place, lets hope you jerry might be in those cuts:ok:

Merry Xmas:p :mad: :mad: :mad:

[yachtno1]

I'd just like to point out that BA are paying about £1 Billion off their debt each year! A fact which sometimes goes un-noticed. ;)

[jerrystinger]

da dog - But I wouldn't expect a BA employee to agree with me!

[Hand Solo]

Thats why the pilots got their union to benchmark most major airlines in Europe and the UK to objectively verify who is paid what. Strangely enough, seems BA pilots are very good vale for money. But I wouldn't expect a non-BA employee to believe the truth.