"standard Speeds"

[brownstar]

Question 2 - following on from my previous post for ATC

Please explain the term as used by ATC - Standard Speed
is it (a) 250 kt below FL100, (b) the standard speed that your company would use above FL100 and 250kt below FL100 (consider this - slowed by previous sector to min clean FL240, and on had over to the following sector you report "FL190, speed 210kt" you are then told by the controller "standard speed" - can we speed up or maintain 210kt due sequencing and then 250 below FL100?)
or (c) some answer that i have not thought about but the answer - to be provided by you will be, inspiring, a land mark item, a defining momment in aviation to remembered throughout time , cast in stone.........er sorry , got a bit to monty python there!

[ratarsedagain]

Usually the phrase 'standard speeds' is used running in on the STAR to say LAM, or BIG etc (going into LHR).
As far as i'm aware, it refers to the Speed Limit Points on the STAR plate. e.g. 250kts at LAM 12d or 3 mins before LAM whichever sooner.
HTH

[055166k]

Never heard that one before.....maybe some-one's using non-standard R/T.
Any controller know if that's written down anywhere?...I am aware that certain speeds are required as part of published intermediate approach procedures, but in area control we would never use the phrase "standard speed[s]".

[ukatco_535]

As an Area controller - Oh yes we do!!

In the London TMA it means hit the SLPs at the standard speed, not the 320kts that you have been thrown to us without coordination. (standing by for incoming!!)

If we are busy, we unfortunately do not alway have time to specify a specific speed if there is no holding, but there are a few a/c arriving from different points for the same airfield.

We do try to give you a speed, i.e. maintian high speed or 220ts if we can and it's obvious but it's not always possible and we do not want to stitch up the approach controller.

If it is obvious that you will get in with no delay, we will keep your speed up, similarly if you are going to hold, we will reduce your speed when we can.

It may not be down in the book as "standard phraseology" but it is less of a mouthful than it could be. Another way of saying it would be "standard speed by the Speed Limit Point"; however if a pilot does not report to us that he is handed over either with a high speed instruction or any other speed instruction/limitation from the previous sector, he or she would be expected to fly the standard, published speeds.

Just the same as unless otherwise instructed, you WILL hold at the appropriate facility... pilots should not sound so surprised when running into LAM or BIG etc that they will have to hold. the majority of pilots are good and will remind you as they approach the hold that they are still at a previous given speed, but I have had some pilots sound almost surprised that they will hold, even when told the delay is 10-15 minutes. Unfortunately I am not just talking about non UK pilots either.

[Max-Performance]

Slightly off subject, but we turboprops hold at 160Kts. When we are vectored out of the hold controllers never give a speed. I've learned to speed up without being asked, but acceleration is hardly startling and some controllers seem to be puzzled by the almost stationary return.javascript:smilie(':D')
Most controllers don't seem to be aware on the other hand how quickly some turboprops can slow down and go down (and usually both).

[ATCO1962]

Hey Max,

Even 20 years ago when I was just starting out on radar, a lot of time was spent teaching just how flexible turbo-props were on descent and close to the airfield. That teaching was reinforced by a flock of t-p drivers who wanted to prove a point by keeping their speeds up and eating up the jet ahead unless some pointed speed control was given.

As for this topic, I'll always opt for a clear speed. Whenever there's a chance for misinterpretation, it'll be done as per Murphy's Law.

[055166k]

Sorry I'm behind the times, still trying to get my inexperienced head round the need to ignore all that boring bookwork stuff.......so just to clarify...at the UK's premier airport with pilots from a wide diversity of language and ethnic origins, some of whom have flown from points on the other side of the planet, it is quite acceptable to use a version of R/T phraseology that not only differs from ICAO but even from our own UK standard.
Should I make it up as I go along or are there any good films I can watch?
This is an example of a "nothing" transmission...it doesn't mean anything.......or worse....it could mean different things to different people.

[ukatco_535]

"a Nothing transmission"??

It amplifies the Approach plates, which state standard speeds and when they are to be achieved by.

Regardless of nationality, if the pilot can't interpret the approach plates, he should not be flying.

BTW I am NOT a Heathrow controller, but was using thier hold for an example, the same is true for any other hold at any airport with instrument approach procedures.

Giving a specific speed in en route controlling is, I agree, the way it should be done, however it works slightly differently if you are not using speed for separation, which is the gist of this thread.

The phrase is only usually used if questioned by the pilots, which they should not really be doing anyways as they should follow standard procedures unless instructed otherwise.

These standard procedures include standard routes, standard speeds, standard rates of descent, standard holds etc.

Short of flying the aircraft for them what are we supposed to do?? There are 2 of them to interpret the charts, the workload, despite any pilots protestation otherwise, is not so huge as to make this an impossible task.

The only time (in my opinion; having flown professionally for 12 years), that the wokload is especially 'high' is in an emergency; and in that circumstance i would offer every assistance, including giving specific speeds etc. Even then unless it is a catastrophic failure such as total engine or decompression, the workload is not that high.

[Jonty]

As a pilot here is what "standard speed" means to me:

Company speed for the aircraft above FL100, and 250kts below FL100. It also means that any speed limit point shown on the chart must be met.

And its a phrase used all over the world, not just in UK airspace. Although we tend to treat it with a bit more caution in Greece!

[zonoma]

I think you'll find that the UK MATS Part 1 (CAP 493) does not have "standard speed" in the phraseology appendix but "resume normal speed". As this is listed then I'd expect pilots to also understand "normal speed" if they request if there's "any speed for us".

The one I always avoid for any inbound is "no ATC speed restriction" as that can get you into so much trouble... :}

[No_Speed_Restriction]

max performance, isnt holding speed for a turboprop 170?

[BOAC]

in an emergency; and in that circumstance i would offer every assistance, including giving specific speeds etc - while we are always grateful, Ukatco, for 'every assistance', I don't think many of us would like to be 'given' a speed then!!

BTW - I cannot see that anyone has answered brownstar's b)?

[Jetstream Rider]

If we are given a descent, say to be level 150 at Tiger, there are three ways to do it if a bit short of distance.

1. Speed up and dive the height off.
2. Extend the speedbrake and stay at your speed or slow down.
3. Speed up and extend the speedbrake.

Extending the speedbrake for extended periods is uncomfortable for the pax, so at this point I would usually aske if we are speed restricted. If not, I will speed up and keep it comfortable while fitting the requirements of the controller. If I am speed restricted, I will use the speedbrake.

This isn't a problem if you have lots of distance, and usually the controllers don't expect you to go down and slow down at the same time. However, when it is busy we often don't quite get the distance we would like. Lots of the controllers are helpful by saying "make the restriction at Tiger and then you can slow down". sometimes "standard speeds" helps as you know what to plan for after the descent. I have used the speedbrake before and slowed to 250 knots at the SLP just before being asked to fly 300 knots. Asking first makes it more comfortable and efficient and helps your situational awareness.

055166k - Non standard phraseology is a problem for things like clearances and defined things like take off etc. There is not a defined message for all eventualities, especially emergencies. If there is no defined message for speed restictions, then "standard speed" is plain english for what is required. Its not the same sort of "non standard" as we hear across the world which can be dangerous.

[5milesbaby]

I have used the speedbrake before and slowed to 250 knots at the SLP just before being asked to fly 300 knots. Asking first makes it more comfortable and efficient and helps your situational awareness.
Area controllers are not permitted to tell you to disregard the SLP's in the London TMA unless they obtain prior permission or have you on a faster speed for their own separation (usually streaming). So when given initial descent asking "any speed for us" will not give you a response to keep the speed up all the way in.

BOAC - to answer b) then in Brownstars example being told standard speeds you can accelerate to whatever speed you want and then slow back down to 250kts at either FL100/SLP whichever is appropriate.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Sorry but in the Middle East (UAE), if I said to 6 different pilots to fly "Standard Speeds", I would get 6 different interpretations of what standard speed was, along with probably at least 3 "say again"s , and maybe a couple of period of just stunned silence.

If I want to make sure a pilot knows to fly the STAR speeds , I will say "comply with STAR speeds". And if I am able to allow him to stay fast, I will say "cancel STAR speeds". If to a pilot flying an old Russian crate between Baghdad and Dubai, I will maybe say "Comply with STAR speed restrictions from (and say the point the restriction applies)".

If I say standard speeds, as I said a lot of the guys we deal with would take that to be the usual profile speed for the aircraft they are flying. Not good when App need 250Kts, and the guy is flying the profile speed for an MD11.

[brownstar]

Ukatco-535

You have given me some food for thought. Your comment of aircraft being handed to you possibly without speed co ordination from the previous controller, I have seen ( fairly infrequently, i have to add ). From the flying side of things when you are very regularly flying specific STAR's and SID's we generally take speed control to mean 2 things. On a SID " no ATC speed" to us means - there are lots of aircraft we would like to handle and the quicker you can get out of our sector the easier that will be.
On the STAR's however, when we ask you about speed, it is to aid the flow of all inbounds to the airport, as, from previous experience, the speeds for arrival ,for instance across London can vary from, bend the wings off to try not to stall clean.
When we ask about speed we are trying to help ( well at least i am, i might be a bit nieve about others intentions) anyway.

Can anyone who is reading this please re read the origional question and see if they can answer point b)

[ukatco_535]

Brownstar,

I can honestly say there is not a day goes by that I do not see A/C entering my sector above 300 kts - which should be coordinated. However that is an issue that will hopefully be resolved when we get to Swanwick, and the commuinication between the 2 sets of controllers improves.

As for the SIDs, unless we need you to be able to execute a sharp turn at some point (for instance on a LAM departure from EGKK) we will take off the speed restriction 'cos it gets rid of you quicker(!) - unless of course there is an A340 ahead.

With STARS, we do realise that you are trying to help, and I have had many a helpful pilot remind me they are doing 290kts or whatever when I am busy (thanks, it helps).

If it is obvious to me that if you 'bend the wings off' you will get in ahead of other traffic, I will instruct you to fly high speed 'at your discretion' - ('discretion' used as I do not know the individual company SOPs etc).

If it is not obvious what the approach controllers stream will be, but the A/C are not holding, then I will quite often say 'fly standard speeds'.

If it is obvious you will hold; I will slow you down as soon as I can, subject other traffic.

[ukatco_535]

Brownstar

With regards to point b. If you had been speeded by the previous sector for streaming, then came to me and I said standard speeds to you, you would be quite within your rights as far as I am concerned to speed up again or do whatever you wanted until you hit any speed limit points.

If I still needed you on a speed for separation, i would instruct you that accordingly.


Any new clearance cancels a previous clearance unless restrictions are reiterated within the framework of the new clearance (does that make sense? - just been shafted on radar; brain frazzled!).

If you had come across at say 270kts for separation and I wanted to maintain that but to get you to fly standard or normal speed by the SLP I would say maintain 270kts, reduce to 250kts at the SLP. (for example)

If I did not reiterate the maintain 270kts - you could rightly assume that the speed was all yours until the SLP.

Hope this drivel makes sense - I am off to find a dark room


:\

[055166k]

Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1 [CAP 493] appendix E......Communications Technique and Standard Phraseology:
The correct phrase is "Resume Normal Speed".
Please don't confuse groundspeed readout with Indicated airspeed, rough guide is add 2% per thousand feet to get True airspeed, and don't forget the wind.......my buddies and I in Area Control will never give you traffic above the agreed speed without co-ordination.

Brownstar....the phrase "standard speed" is not an officially recognised instruction. To address your point b]....
Resume Normal speed means exactly that; you may fly any speed which your normal operation requires for that particular cicumstance, it means that there is no artificial speed restriction imposed by ATC for traffic separation or marshalling [sequencing] other than those published for various portions of the flight e.g. Speed Limit Point on a STAR, or speed limit specified in a clearance e.g. in a SID.

[ukatco_535]

O55166K

There is also a phrase in MATS part 1 - one of the very first pieces of text which states (and I am paraphrasing here) "Nothing in this manual shall preclude an ATCO from using his or her judgement" etc etc etc.

We are talking about one piece of phraseology here - how many unstandard phrases do you use in a day?

"resume standard speed" is widely used in TC, whether that is correct phraseology or not is by the by, it's a fact. It is used, it works, end of.

As for the difference between the different types of speed - I take your point, but will amplify it further. You have IAS (Indicated), RAS (Rectified), TAS (True) and finally GS (Ground Speed).

Below 300kts due to the compressibility of air, you can miss out one of the steps in the calculation of how to get from IAS to GS.

As you can see, I do know the difference between IAS and GS.

To say -

my buddies and I in Area Control will never give you traffic above the agreed speed without co-ordination.
is quite frankly laughable. Now I do not want this to progress into a slanging match because I know that we do things that hack you off, and being in the same building as each other will hopefully make things better as we can have better 2 way dialogues.

Hand on heart, every day I am working I either get aircraft doing greater than 300kts - as reported by the pilot, or as a coordinator I have one of my controllers moan about it. (And as I am more than aware that you know, pilots will report Mach number or IAS NOT Ground speed)

Normally, it does not matter too much, as long as we get the A/C early enough. What does P*** us off is when it is patently obvious that we are holding and it still happens. I appreciate that our holds are background traffic to you, but you can still see the A/C going round the hold. It's all about appreciation of what is going on outside of a controllers particular task (the bigger picture).

As I said, I do not want to start a slanging match as we could swap posts about what each unit does wrong for months - I am just putting it down because of your quote above.

99 times out of 100 we will not phone to complain, because frankly, if we are holding, we are invariably busy - therefore we have bigger fish to fry. Maybe if we did it would become apparent to you how often it actually happens.

Also, even if you do not give a pilot a specific speed above 300kts to fly, saying to him or her "maintain high speed" is, in essence, breaking the coordination because it is an instruction and although it gives the pilot a chance to choose the speed, it may well still break the 300kt rule!!

Perhaps that is our problem at both ends - we do not phone and complain enough. I do not believe there is enough understanding of the problems faced by either sets of controllers. Again, this may be redressed a bit when we move down.

It would be nice if when we do move down, the management were to get the watches that work together and give them some money to go down the pub and chat to each other and get to know each others problems etc (work problems wise - I am no social worker) - It would be a hell of a lot more effective and infinitely cheaper than doing TRM which is a lot of management speak and buzz words and is basically common sense and an insult!! (In my opinion). But obviously that is not gonna happen.



Brownstar-

055166Ks explanation regarding your point b] is correct and is the same as mine, but probably put in a more lucid and understandable way (my head was spinning at the time!). Hopefully between the 2 answers, you have found what you were looking for.

[055166k]

A healthy interchange of opinion, good to air these ideas.
Alas, the banana-skin moment has occurred. The first lines in Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1 [MATS 1] were designed to cover those rare, unique and unforeseen sets of circumstances that may not be covered by the greater content; they are not intended to endorse the parochial working practices or method of operations [MOPS] of an entire ATC unit otherwise the extrapolation of that idea countrywide would lead to confusion and mayhem.
MATS 1 applies to all ATC units no matter how big or small. MATS 2 [local instructions] are meant to clarify, expand and enhance the interpretation of MATS1 at individual unit level....MATS 2 is not meant to replace MATS 1, neither should it contain or endorse peculiar or non-standard phraseology.
I can see where this has come from...I've come across it many times.....one slick guy adopts his/her personal MOPS and teaches it to his/her trainee who teaches it to their trainee....the cascade effect. To protect against this, Swanwick have put in place a strict regime of annual competency checking by a team of dedicated and thorough Local Competency Examiners [LCE's] which includes close scrutiny of sample R/T tapes; this has ensured that service delivery of the highest standard is maintained.
These posts are read by a wider ATC audience and I thought it worthy of a mention.
Unfortunately "big-unit" elitism has resulted in some variations in service delivery....here is a simple example:
Regional airport ATC give threshold elevation even though it does not change and is printed on the charts, and even though most of the pilots are in and out several times a day; but at metropolis international jet-port that handles traffic from all round the world I can't recall that information being passed....so it is obviously not that vital.
On a positive and friendly note....if you wish to use a particular set of words or phraseology that is unique to your unit and may be ambiguous.....seek approval from SRG to publish both the phrase and its intended meaning so that "brownstar" and others will never have to ask again.

[ukatco_535]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with a lot of your post; having been both sides of the mic in a professional context for a long time.

I am glad that Swanwick have a strict regime to check standards - after all it is an SRG requirement. We have almost exactly the same procedure at TC; except that we have tape samples every six months i.e. twice yearly.

I still challenge you to that fact that you will regularly use non standard phraseology yourself;)

I can guarantee that regardless of what phraseology someone uses, there will always be ambiguity, as there are so many pilots out there who do not have English as thier first language.

Laudable as using the correct phraseology is, it does not cover every eventuality, and you have to adapt phrases to suit (I am NOT talking about the use of 'standard speed' here, just in general).

I think if you took a poll of all the pilots and ATCOs you will find that the sensible ones who are more bothered about getting the job done just want to be told what to do or given the information. If that is in plain english then so be it.

Regarding the regional airport giving the threshold elevation along with the QNH - it certainly used to be a STANDARD laid down procedure. This was because not all aircraft using these regional airports are used to landing on the QNH. It comes as a nasty shock to these pilots when the runway hits the aircraft earlier than expected. Not having flown professionaly for a while, I am not sure if it is still a standard procedure, whether that be in MATS PT1 or 2, and frankly, I don't really care as I work area - I will leave that to the airport professionals as I do not pretend to know what their exact rules are.

Swanwick has a totally different role from TC and uses speed in a different way (which is probably why we get chucked stuff travelling too fast so often!) - maybe you should take into consideration other ATC units responsibilities before talking about large unit elitism (or was that self criticism of the large elitist unit that you work for?!?) - again, an appreciation of the 'bigger picture' that sadly more and more in the aviation industry lacks these days.

[055166k]

Please keep digging the hole....I haven't laughed [or cried] so much for ages.......now we have reference to lower standard pilots who don't know how to find the runway; foreign pilots who can't understand English; and naughty area controllers chucking aircraft too fast.
Astonishingly I receive regular compliments from pilots who remark on my clear and concise R/T delivery.
Go on....your turn....tell us you can walk on water.

[ukatco_535]

You're not worth it mate, by your tone you are obviously of the opinion that you can walk on water. I doubt very much if pilots remark on your clear and concise RT. You work at Swanwick?? Surely there is not the time at such a busy unit for such non standard niceties??

This is the last I can be bothered to reply to you, as I realise I am not worthy.



I did not say pilots could not find the runway, or that they did not understand english - I hope you interpret the laws of ATC better than you interpret written English. God help any pilots who happen to be under your control when you use the rules to their fullest to get the job done - I am just glad I no longer fly professionally.

And 'naughty' Area controllers handing over a/c too fast (which you claimed a couple of posts ago you guys NEVER did) can be dangerous - if you do not understand why, visit another unit and see what your colleagues do.

In fact, get a life and get an idea of what other people in Air Traffic do.

I look foward to Oct 2007 when i can witness at first hand such an exemplary controller in action. I will PM you nearer that date to find out when you are on watch, I can obviously learn a lot from you - your students must be blessed to have such a perfect and humble OJTI :p

[REVOLUTION]

I totally agree with ukatco_535, 055166k I think you're a p**ck!

This debate would not be necessary if Swanwick were not obsessed with speed control. If en-route used radar headings to seperate aircraft and let all the aircraft fly at whatever speed they wanted everyone would be much happier. When I get handed a load of planes that have been speeded i'll say there is 'no speed restriction' or 'standard speed' or '250 kts by the speed limit point' or 'resume normal speed' or whichever associated phrase comes into my head first.

If you speak to Heathrow approach the only time they want aircraft steamed into Lam is on Easterlies with no delay, sector 13/14 are not in a position to judge that.

[MancBoy]

Revolution............what a pile of sh1te.

Having been valid in TC for over three years on TC North before TC east existed and valid on CLN for the past 7 years I think I know what sort of speeds TC are expecting and can look at the delays and holding situation and judge accordingly.

You have no idea of the experience or lack of experience of the controllers on the surrounding sectors.

You may have been valid en-route aswell but i doubt it.

If you really want all traffic on radar headings doing their own speeds then you can have it, but expect 5 heathrow inbounds abreast at regular intervals, 3 gatwicks abreast, SS and GW abreast. GET THE PICTURE.

Do you know the speeds that the BA EHAM and BMA EBBR to LL call on the frequency doing?

Well over 320KTS occasionally 340KTS. Do you want them doing that when they invariably are going in the hold? No F@@@@ng way!

When holding at BRASO do you know what the first thing traffic wants to do when you tell them to hold at BRASO? Every DLH wants to reduce to 250KTS at the first oppurtunity. We have to use speed control otherwise everything will be doing want the hell it wants and where@s the CONTROL in that?

I can't wait for 2007, bring your headset throug and show us how to do it.

Upper winds is another variable but you wouldn't know about that.

[REVOLUTION]

I'd be more than happy to receive heathrow inbounds 5 abreast on parallel headings!

[MancBoy]

thats crap and you know it.

why, then, when i have raised the point with my mates in tc do they say they would prefer traffic streamed on speeds rather than on headings?

the less number of tracks the less you have to monitor headings.

something you'll learn with experience after your balls have dropped

[REVOLUTION]

(In a very high pitched voice, as ball's haven't dropped)
I don't know who your mates are in TC but all the east people on the watch i'm on prefer headings to speed control, the beauty of a heading is you don't have to monitor it unlike speed control!

[MancBoy]

You're telling me that you don't monitor headings?

Wow you are great and unsafe!

My offer applies for you to come and have go and show us how to do it.

My mates in TC are all valid for 8+ years mainly on Y watch and are all respected OJTIs and LCEs so probably know what they are on about

[ukatco_535]

MancBoy

I do not have any interaction with Swanwick from the east, but i do from the south. I will quite happily take aircraft either on parallel headings OR speed, the only thing I would say is I would like the traffic earlier.

It's not a case of I think i can do it better - it's a case of I have better tools at hand to do the separation (i.e. 3 miles separation and a radar that does not have to be wound out so far).

To my mind, if speed is used for separation great - as long as it is done properly. I have had aircraft handed over in a stream before with 10kt speed differentials - that is not adequate as the tolerance to which pilots are allowed to fly could mean that the aircraft behind is flying faster than the one in front!!!

As for A/C coming into my sector above 300kts, that is potentially much more dangerous than using the phrase 'standard speed' - especially when I only get it 10 or 15 miles away from the holding area . Unfortunately your colleague would seem to disagree.

Being valid at TC 10yrs ago bears no resemblance to being valid there today; in very much the same way that en route has changed so much in that period.

I beleve that one of the worst things that NATS could have done was to move en route to Swanwick then have such a long time frame before TC moves down. Neither sets of controllers has a true understanding of the others problems now; phone calls do not have the same effect as sitting in and watching counterparts work.

I know it is easy to visit swanwick or vice versa, but how many of us actively do it? I will admit, I don't. I have better things to do with time my off and there is no way the company or my watch will let me do it on watch time.


Roll on 2007!!

[brownstar]

.....lucky I didn't tell them about the dirty fork !!

[5milesbaby]

Roll on 2007 indeed, I hope they improve the carpet between the two ops rooms as those doors are gonna be flapping once more.......

........I miss the sound of those doors :}

PS, with your excellent 'wound in' range why do the south TMA controllers find it so hard to get the outbounds closer than 10nm when paralleled off? At least we can manage that even if the speeds aren't working... :uhoh:

PPS I will admit that there are occasions where we transfer a/c 300kts+ and there are times where non-standard RTF is used, sorry 055166k but its fact, we do as does nearly every other controller NATS or not and pilots too. Food for thought, if we transfer an a/c unspeeded, then what speed could they be doing? I bet many will be 300kts+. When there is holding I do try and slow stuff down, but its not always possible, but thats our 'bigger picture' too.

[ukatco_535]

5milesbaby

We have a/c all over the place, because to climb them we have to vector them round stacks, fit them from several different airports and point them in the right direction etc etc. Meanwhile we are vectoring the inbounds to avoid them etc so we can cross levels.

Our airspace is limited. If we were to then try to make it all very tidy and bring all the aircraft back into a couple of streams on parallel heading with say 8 miles spacing, it would take more time than we have got as we would be tweaking away at the headings until it was just right. (Do you want us to have control of A/C east of Dover??!!)

We climb them and sort them out from the inbounds, with a multitude of crossing tracks in a small bit of airspace, then hand them on to you for you to do what you are very good at - streaming them and getting them in exactly the correct position.

It's not ideal - any ATCO worth their salt would want to hand off the perfect traffic set up, if only for their own pride if nothing else, but unfortunately, time and space does not permit.

What we all fail to remember and appreciate at times is that LACC and TC have very different problems regarding their task (which is also very different within the confines of providing the safe, orderly and expeditious service). Neither set of controllers hands a perfect traffic presentation to the other. However, I believe that we could do some things better without a question, if we knew the problems we each faced..... which should be easier to appreciate when the two units are at Swanwick.

[5milesbaby]

ukatco_535, please answer a couple of questions:

1. Were you posted to West Drayton before the area side moved to Swanwick?

2: Have you ever been in the Swanwick ops room since it went live?

I'm not leading up to an arguement with these, just simply asking as it seems from our side that the TC attitude has changed since we left and the general thought as to why is that the newer staff haven't ever had the pleasure of having an angry face tap their shoulder from the next room wanting a "coffee to talk about things". I've been there several times when the doors are sent-a-flapping and just know they are making a bee-line for me, it will be good when eventually it can happen again as so much is learnt in such short conversations.

PS do you realise that when CBA1 is active/restrictive we only have a 5nm wide airway at KONAN? Thats what I call limited.

[MancBoy]

5miles, i doubt whether our friend knows where cba1 is!



ukatco

when i was in tc, heathrow was almost full to capacity then as it is now. I used to operate the LAM stack up to 170 and then CLN did the rest.

after moving in to AC, I've done it from the otherside and even held at LOGAN up to 360, something you can only imagine.

I know how LL holds operate and what they expect!

Yes things change, SS has got crazy but LL has remained the same.

When you boys come down we'll be all on the same watch so I can feel an extension coming your way, aswell as us coming back to the TC sectors we know and love so well

[ukatco_535]

5 miles baby,

in order

yes,

no

yes,

I also know that we don't bother worrying about CBA1 being active anymore - we are supposed to vector everything north side and you are not supposed to tell us if it is active.

(I use the first suppose in italics because I have seen several people over the past few days who still vector well to the south.)

And yes, I believe the door flapping will be a 2 way thing!!

Mancboy,

I think you will find that LL is busier now, it's just the peak times are longer - as you are no doubt aware of because you have to deal with the inbounds before we get them.

And please think before you post - a comment like "I doubt he knows where CBA1 is, is not constructive). Holding up to those levels is not 'something' I can only imagine - I have seen it in action many times, although I do not do TC East.

I kind of hoped that in you you were above pithy remarks and were sensible. You think we do things wrong and vice versa. Silly remarks like that only prevent people from exchanging views. Only by people exchanging views will things change for the better.

As for cross training, I doubt very much whether people will cross train onto major sectors, either way, as there is an issue with currency.
However there may be the opportunity for people to cross train onto one of the 'quieter' sectors. Not that there are many of them in either of our rooms nowadays!

[MancBoy]

uk you're way too easy to wind up!

i've been around long enough to know the score between ac and tc.

things will definitely improve when we're all together.

i look forward to exchanging views.

i often try to get tc's opinion on the telephone but they are so often straight on the defensive that it's difficult sometimes.