Dragon helicopters...make up your own mind (Merged)

[pugzi]

a word for word email, i'm sorry it's come to this, but maybe it'll help others from making the mistake I did.

Dear ...........

This is email is written to ask you to complete the final payment left outstanding from my tuition fees from 2 months ago. The outstanding amount is 800 pounds plus my account fee of 25 which I incured having gone overdrawn after a promise was made to pay me prior to going on holiday. If this final payment has not been settled within 10 days you leave me no choice but to persue the payment through the small claims court at Biscester and I will be obliged to inform the CAA. I hope, in all sincereity that it doesn't come to that.

Steve Francis



Hi Steve,

we have already paid you an extra £50 as this was the amount you previously informed me your bank had charged you for going overdrawn when you went on holiday. I presume, therefore, that I can deduct £25 from the outstanding amount and we therefore owe you £775.

As stated before, we will pay you as soon as we have the money, and this is still the case. We have no intention of not settling the bill in full. You have to accept that companies are not always able to pay within 30 days due to circumstances beyond their control: this is certainly the case when I am working freelance and there have been occasions when I have waited more than 120 days to be paid.

If you want to take us to court that¹s up to you but you won¹t get your money any faster; we can¹t pay what we don¹t have

Kind regards,

[Whirlygig]

Not quite sure who is whom in this (and perhaps that's a good thing before this thread gets pulled) BUT

it is illegal to use the excuse "pay when paid". The supplier has a statutory right to charge interest now. If a company does not have the cash to pay it's debts then it is trading illegally and can be wound up.

A Winding-Up petition (under Insolvency Act 1986 - can't remember the section number after a couple of glasses of merlot) can be made to the Courts where a debt (or total of debts) is greater than £800. This means, that unless the Limited Company can demonstrate that it can pay it's debts and has another dispute with the supplier, then the court can deem the company to be trading illegally and issue a Compulsory Winding-Up Order. Basically, the company will be liquidated.

Whoever wrote the latter part of the e-mail is treading on very dodgy ground. It is not the supplier's problem that there is no cash. The debtor should seek further overdraft funds from the bank or the directors/shareholders should put more capital into the company to raise funds (issue of shares/debentures/long term loans) or seek to find further investors.

Of course, this would require a sound business plan and if overdrafts have already been increased, then a bank might be reluctant to extend.

If the second correspondent has any issue with what I've written, please feel free to PM me.

Cheers

Whirls (ACA!)

[helicopter-redeye]

Actually, that rather reminds me of the time a friend of mine issued a winding up order on BT for non payment of debts (but that's another story).

As a supplier to Dragon, I would have to say they have been consistently the BEST payer of all commercial and flying schools I've ever traded with.

h-r :)

[pugzi]

If only I was as lucky as you helicopter redeye, it's 90 <edit> days now.

[helicopter-redeye]

The secret is in the contract and persistent pestering for payment of invoices from the date of issue (usually within 3 minutes of the service being delivered).

Smiling at the phone when asking for the money is quite helpful as well. Sets the tone as friendly but firm.

Luck? Nein! Pluck? Ja!

h-r:)

[md 600 driver]

pugzi
is this a letter to dragon or from dragon to a student
steve

[pugzi]

I was an instructor for them, the first letter is me writing to them, the second is their reply to me.
I certainly did all that helicopter redeye, alas being nice this time hasn't helped, so I have no choice but to let the courts help me. It was actually very easy to do online. Time for bed now.

[NickLappos]

pugzi,
At least you got an honest answer, if not a fair deal. Many won't even bother to explain their situation, at least in the States. Going to court is surely justified, of course. Good luck.

[Thomas coupling]

Pugzi: dont forget to charge them everything when it goes to small claims court:

In addition to your fone/paper/postage costs etc:
1. daily interest accruing on full amount.
And the best:
2. your charges for taking the day off to go to court. That normally wakes them up when they see what they will have to pay in the end.
Thank goodness for small claims courts eh?


Good luck and lets hope word gets out about Dragon before Heliport pulls the accused names from the thread!

[pugzi]

Thank you all for your advice, it's comforting to know I'm doing the right thing even though it makes me feel terrible to take someone to court.
Kind regards

[Jed A1]

pugzi,

Don't feel terrible. It's only business. You deserve to get paid for the services you provided. You are completely entitled and expected to take all reasonable actions to protect your own interests.

You could be viewed as a wimp if you did not persue your debtors with with every means available to you.

Don't make this personal. Hopefully, with a satisfactory resolution to this situation, the persons responsible will not view you in any other light than that of being a level headed businessman and pilot.

[autosync]

Hell hath no fury like a flight instructor scorned!




I think Kissmysquirrel said it best with:

"Just remember, most small schools will shaft you at the first opportunity.
Unless you can find work with a respectable, reputable company, my advice now is don't bother unless you want to be treated like sh*t!!
Don't work for one man band outfits out of portacabins, too many used car salesmen type people think they can run heli businesses when they couldn't run sh*t."

[cyclic flare]

Unfortunately there are no costs awarded for claims under £5000.00.

You will get £50.00 maximum towards your costs

[Whirlygig]

But the costs under Small Claims Court are fixed as is the formula for calculating interest (or they certainly were the last time I did one!). Those fixed costs are added to the claim. Since a small claim involves very little work and it can all be done by the claimant, these costs will contra.

Cheers

Whirls

[Thomas coupling]

If you add the costs you incur to a final figure and make that figure the claim figure and win - you'll get all of that back. Did it with...***.. and they had to pay for a days release from work!

[pugzi]

Thanks Thomas I did just that and finished the claim online this evening, heres hoping it gets sorted. Your all stars for the advise. Ta

[Whirlygig]

I'm surprised this thread has lasted so long to be honest! I don't think there is much to be gained by naming and shaming hence my offer to this company to give them some advice on how to manage their cash flow and what their legal position is.

It could have sufficed to ask what are the best steps in getting a debtor to pay in which case many of the answers would have been the same.

Cheers

Whirls

[pugzi]

Your right Whirlgig, i didn't have to name and shame, but I was upset and didn't want others, especially students to suffer what I have. But mainly I think I did it because I was upset and I wanted to upset them too I suppose. Revenge is never a good thing I know, but alas it's done. I have calmed down now. Would I have still done it, maybe, I'm not sure.
And kissmysquirrel, thanks for the support, you can be my lawyer anytime

[Jed A1]

Naming and shaming is not necessarily a bad thing. Hopefully those responsible (and anybody else in the industry) will think twice before doing the same (or similar) again.

Self regulation - makes the whole industry more professional.

[Whirlygig]

To be honest, I'm not sure it does come across as professional. This is a very small world and pugzi has identified his real name. Some operators may respect him for what he's done but others may not. I'm not talking about the act of taking a school to the Small Claims Court (which, without knowing the full facts, without prejudice etc, was the right thing to do) but publicly announcing it on this forum. I know of a couple of Chief Pilots who read but don't post so you never know who's looking.

Just to play Devil's Advocaat here, we only have pugzi's word that that was the verbatim e-mails sent and received. We haven't heard Dragon's side and there may be a dispute so we none of us should be quick to judge.

I do think the course of action is correct and Pugzi, when you get a cheque from them, take a photocopy so that if they do it again, you can ask the courts for a Garnishee Order (great fun they are!) whereby the courts can take the money out of the acocunt - if they have it.

This operator is a new outfit so appropriate checks such as Companies House filing of Statutory Accounts will not yield much. But, for future, it is worth checking out Companies House for any new customer. You will need the full name and/or number which should be on the bottom of their letterhead (if they are a Limited Company). If it isn't, that's breaking Companies Act 85. Online this only costs about a fiver compared with Dun & Bradstreet or Experian reports which are upwards of £30 a pop. If you are serious about dealing with a particular organisation, then I would recommend D&B.

Cheers

Whirls

[peachpilot]

I agree Whirls - a silent tounge is a wise tounge....you just can't say what you like in this game and you NEVER know who's watching ! :suspect:

[Whirlygig]

KMS - there are TWO RBs and yes, both read Pprune and yes, both have worked out who I am!! Both are also in a position to recruit if not pay wages.

Cheers

Whirls

[headsethair]

The quick, no fuss way to get money owed to you in England & Wales is to use the moneyclaim.gov.uk website run by the Courts Service. You can process the whole thing online for very little cost and the Courts system then takes over.
Have used it twice this year on bad debts and got money + costs within 3 weeks.

[peachpilot]

I totally agree Pugzi is right to stand up for himself, but to go public.....not so sure......I would press the big D button mate ! :(

[SAR202]

Why do you all assume Pugzi is a flight instructor, Dragon do CPL groundschool as well.

[Whirlygig]

I can't see anywhere where that assumption (whether made or otherwise) makes any difference to the responses given - this is down to debt and non-payment thereof!

Cheers

Whirls

[EESDL]

Who needs the facts - this still is a 'rumour' network, right?

Trouble with UK helicopter community and the popularity of this forum is that some people regard 'all' postings as gospel.

There's probably an 'Old Chinese Proverb' out there that can sum it up better than I can but:

Thank you pugzi for using this forum to highlight a 'possible' rogue operator BUT thank you Whirlygig, and others, for reminding 'prune-dependants' that there are always many sides to a story.................

Like the idea of that 'online' claim scheme...................

[uncle ian]

For what its worth I think it is quite wrong to post any dispute with your contractor on this site. As has been said here already we only have the complainant's word for this and no notion of the complete picture.

I will say, and back it up to anyone who chooses to ask me privately, that Dragon Helicopters have just paid me a cheque for an amount negotiated for a cancelled free lance pilot's job a little while ago. It would have been easy for them to argue that nothing was due!

I hope this brings some balance to a "debate" that seems to delight in demonising those in this industry who have the gumption to try to make small enterprises work in this exceptionally difficult environment and thus provide the whingeing workers with something else to whinge about along with their remuneration.

[PPRuNe Towers]

The thread is important if for no other reason than spreading the knowledge of moneyclaim.gov.uk.

The same for a thread running on the instructors forum regarding formally employed instructors and non payment for required hours on site.

When the ins and outs of each 'spat' are long forgotten the greater good is served by the site providing better knowledge for those in the UK industry.

Regards
rob

[Minty Fresh]

Perhaps we should therefore open up this forum to owners and operators to publicly name names of pilots who's mistakes and/or [ profanity deleted ] have cost them money due to repair of machines after incidents.

After all, do they not have a right to know what reputation the people they are hiring have?

I am a Management Accountant for my sins and have worked in very few organisations who have paid suppliers on time. Whether it is because of a lack of funds or simply to manage the cashflow, it happens in all industries.

[Whirlygig]

Minty,

I think you'll find though that the tide is turning. I have worked for comanies now that very much have a "pay on time" philosophy as they have realised that the goodwill generated by paying suppliers on time outweighs the cash flow.

Trading without the ability to pay debts is illegal trading.

As for your first point, given that the helicopter fraternity is so small, I have a feeling that word gets round anyway!

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

Minty,

It's possible for an employer to insure their interests against genuine mistakes made by pilots - it's part of the risk of the aviation business.

It's NOT possible for a pilot to insure against an employer screwing him by not paying him for employment services given. What about the pilot's cash-flow problem? No doubt Management Accountants still get paid, come what may! :hmm:

A colleague of mine is still owed a considerable amount of salary by a company who decided not to pay him before the owner declared bankruptcy. Almost immediately after the company assets were liquidated, the owner of the company (a well known name in the car racing fraternity) immediately set himself up under a different name and carried on trading. His secretary recently phoned my colleague when they needed some important information referring to his employment but as they weren't inclined to pay for the information they didn't get it. Parasites. This sort of thing is one reason why pilots get bitter and twisted.

Loyalty? Unfortunately all too often companies receive it from their employees but when the chips are down it becomes a one way street.....

[Mikeb]

Minty

Whirlygig is right, your living in the dark ages.
I built up successful computer distribution company over a 9 year period. In that time I never once bounced a cheque or failed to pay any of my suppliers on time. In fact I used to pay over 50% of my suppliers on delivery, this gave us a great reputation within the industry and meant we got better prices than most of our competitors and were always offered the premium deals first. This policy was one of the keys to our success.

Any company who fails to pay for a service or goods is basically stealing. If you went to Tesco for your weekly shopping and told the girl/guy on the checkout “I’ll pay you when I can” before driving off would they not call the police?

My company used to get lot’s of bad debts from companies who ordered our goods sold them at cost or even at a loss to pay other creditors/staff. These people usually start a business with no sound business plan or financial backing. It used to make me so mad.

Use moneyclaim.gov.uk to nail them. Once you get a reputation of not rolling over and waiting for ever to get paid your customers start to pay on-time.

Rant over..

[Flying Lawyer]

Minty FreshI am a Management Accountant for my sins and have worked in very few organisations who have paid suppliers on time. Whether it is because of a lack of funds or simply to manage the cashflow, it happens in all industries. Just out of curiosity ..... was your salary paid on time or were you content to be paid as and when it best suited your employer's cashflow?

Re making people wait for money they are owed ..... do you draw any distinction between large-scale suppliers and sole traders?

[Minty Fresh]

Insurance comes with an excess - it still costs the owners and sometimes those excesses are large.

Dark Ages? No - Small Manufacturing Business? Could be.

The only way a lot of small businesses survive is to pay late - as the people they supplied are doing exactly the same - I know I had to try and get the money out of them!!!

Ok, its not trading legally but people aren’t going to role over, give in and let their company fold. They will do anything to keep it going through rough times.

The two aren’t too dissimilar- British Manufacturing is on its arse and there is very little margin in grass routes aviation.

I'm sure eventually they'll be the idyllic world where everyone pays ontime - in the mean time remember that there's probably people owing Dragon too!

[ShyTorque]

"Insurance comes with an excess - it still costs the owners and sometimes those excesses are large."

Yes, aviation business can be risky due to accidents, always so, but how can you compare that to a company arbitrarily deciding not to pay earned salary / wages to an individual because they would prefer to spend the money elsewhere?

A more valid comparison would be an individual not turning up for work because he prefers to work for someone else, but subsequently expecting to be paid for the time he wasn't there!

And would YOU accept it if it happened to yourself? I doubt it very much, no-one would.

Aviation CANNOT happen without pilots, however much management (and accountants) would wish otherwise.

I fully appreciate that we have not heard Dragon's side of the story but the UK helicopter aviation industry is a small world and Dragon would be very wise to sort this out asap.

[Thomas coupling]

Don't necessarily name the assailants! (legally dodgy anyway) BUT definitely discuss the scenario so the industry can be warned. An interested party can always dig deeper to find the names, I'm sure.

Can't believe there are people like Minty who still think it's moral (and essential) to delay payments to suppliers....Who do you think you are?
If you (as a small manufacturer) can't pay when due - pack up and move over for a more resiliant company who deserves your niche in the marketplace.
Refuse to pay me for my services - and I'll send the boys round.

Minty won't be the smell eminating from your office thereafter! :mad:

[Three Blades]

Sorry to repeat but I highly recomend the online Small Claim Court at:

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

Very easy to use and you can have the balifs round in a couple of months from starting the procedure (I have done it).
That will focus the mind of the debtor I can assure you.

Stand up for what is yours.
This guy is not a friend of yours any more so send in the heavies.
Act before he goes bust and then you wished you had acted sooner.

Good luck

[Minty Fresh]

Thomas Coupling - I'll PM home address for the boys or you. Smell it – you’ll be sitting in it - Now lets continue this debate without snide remarks.

I think you need to distinguish the two types of people who don't pay.

There are those who are tw@ts - bankrupt themselves not paying anyone and retire to nice home in spanking new cars. The other type are people whom have/are struggling to run a fledgling company. I'm sure if every businessman had a quitter mentality then the World would be short of a few very successful business people now who struggled in there early career.

[Thomas coupling]

So let me get this right, you're of the second kind are you?

You find yourself struggling so to make life a little less of a problem for yourself you delay paying your suppliers for as long as possible.
That way there's a chance you might make it thru the next month...oh bye the way, to hell with the other fledgling company waiting for their money eh?

Lovely mantra minty....what a delightful person you must be.

Don't tell me...even if you did go bust and still owed everybody...you're also the struggling little manufacturer who'll pop up next week trading under a different name:E

Mmmmmm - hope you sleep well at night.

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

I freelanced for about 8 years before getting a job employed I always got paid late anything between 3 months - 1 year.

My advice is take a photocopy of the tec-logs for all the flights you do just in case you end up having to take a company to court.

[Rockwell]

What has annoyed me in the past with regard to dealings with late paying flying training organisations is the fact that these companies are either paid directly by the student on the day of the exercise, or more likely a large chunk of 'up-front' money is already sitting in their piggy bank on 'account' - earning them interest. We won't mention the Trial Flight paid-up-front Gift Vouchers which are taken 6 months later.

Likewise where aircraft hire is concerned, I have always settled up before leaving the airfield. So it is not as if the flying school/company is waiting for the student/PPL hirer to pay in 90 days or whatever they feel they can spin it out to, before grudgingly paying the instructor for his invaluable services.

[Hedski]

I can only hope this dispute is settled justly. Smaller operators tend to take this line of no responsibility if they're treading the fine wire of solvency, I can only add that I had the misfortune of dealing with the same operator financially, as have several colleagues and we all came away with grievances of various kinds. Excuses were long winded and pathetic in most cases. Fly by night indeed!:hmm:

[sparks and stuff]

sad to hear sombody bleating on about how they have been done wrong and just how things aint right. cant see what the fuss is all about, surley you must have got into aviation with your eyes wide open and knew there would be highs and lows, and i dont for one minute think that were not there at trough feeding away merrily on a high day. may sound simple but why not try a bit harder working with them instead of panning them on the net and just maybe the cash will come in and you can get a share....

[bladewashout]

Nobody likes late payment, but sometimes it's a necessary evil.

If you're running a company, particularly start-ups, and employing staff, you have a responsibility to the staff who have often sacrificed better paid jobs to get in at the start with you. Yes you can get to 30th of the month, hit the overdraft limit and declare yourself insolvent. But you owe it to your staff and yourself to do better than that.

So you can (typically) wait a short time for the few clients who haven't paid you to cough up, and milk the cash flow to keep things going.

There is a difference between doing this in a calculated way using funds you can reasonably expect to get in, and ordering stuff from people when you have no rational hope of getting through the next few months. It's also wrong to withhold from people who will suffer unduly through the delay.

If cash flow is squeezed, I tend to pay my smallest (in size) suppliers first and let the big boys wait. However if any supplier came to me and said 'I really need this' I would hand over a cheque immediately. My normal tactic is simply to wait until the supplier calls me to ask for a cheque, which I then give him, but it can extend payment by one to two weeks, sometimes more.

Even the VAT & tax men understand that. Call them, explain where you are and they can be very accomodating.

If you've been there & done it building a company with fabulous financial resources, then you can pat yourself on the back. It's easy if you have loads of cash.

If, like most of us, you have just about enough and done it the hard way, losing sleep and taking calculated risks, I'll pat *you* on the back!


BW

[uncle ian]

I say again..............

It is quite wrong to name names in a forum of this type. The party named has no reasonable reply and has, sensibly, refrained from entering into this dispute here.

Let me add that as free-lance pilots/instructors you have not been denied your wages/salary by a Company for whom you have worked. You have become just another supplier submitting his/her invoice and as such join the queue. I don't condone late payment but have to accept it as a part of normal business trading. Where I employ people the wages bill is the single most important thing....that is just good sense. Where I use free-lancers and when I work as a free-lance I accept payment may well be significantly delayed.

A free-lancer has effectively set him/herself up in business rather than taking employment; by doing so he/she must accept the exigencies of business trading.

[SASless]

If one cannot....will not... pay one's just debts as promised in the original agreement...then one needs to get out of business. As one's reputation grows for such late/non-payment... that will surely happen anyway.

One of my Golden Rules is simply put....stiff me on pay....first time shame on you....second time....shame on me.

Second Golden Rule....Never let an English Gentleman owe you money. That was taught me by an English Gentleman.

[cyclic flare]

Quite correct uncle ian


Thomas Coupling is clearly a militant who has obviously never employed anyone in his life.

Up the workers Thomas, Strike Strike Strike

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'm sorry, but alot of this, "you should wait and just be patient" is a load of nonsense.

If you have worked for someone as a free-lance instructor, then you should be paid on time. You have done the work and the school has received payment for your time, so why should the individual be forced to wait.

It is not a case of giving payment to the most needy first. If you owe money, then pay it. If you cannot afford it, then you are living on borrowed time, because there will be someone eventually who comes along who won't accept this or you will get an unscheduled bill for a maintenance problem and you will go down. Simple as that.

This industry (aviation as a whole not just Heli's) is littered with companies who have shafted people and then gone under themselves, the key seems to be, don't run it so close to the wind that you can get into trouble easily, you are only fooling yourself. Margins are tight, but be sensible.

I am speaking as both a free-lancer and someone who is responsible of the continued survival of an aviation business.

[MCA]

Second Golden Rule....Never let an English Gentleman owe you money. That was taught me by an English Gentleman.

That one made me laugh, :ok:

[Wee Man]

Lads lads listen,
This is gone into way to much detail for a website!! Look if you go into freelance you know what the risks are. If you can`t stand the heat get the hell out of the kitchen. If you always want things wages wise to go smoothly go and work in a factory on a production line. The helicopter business is totally different. You knew that from day1 when you got into it. Who can you tell me ever made it by getting stuff easy. I feel for the subject of this story but i am sure you will get whats due to you. I know the people at dragon myself very well and had a disagreement with them at onetime. It was sorted professionally and not by either of us trying to tarnish the other ones name. That is just not right. They are a company like all others and as said you are your own company and not an employee. Big difference They wait to be paid just like you. They told you will get your money and I am sure you will. So for the record I have no connection with Dragon at this time and this is an independent comment. Get on with your business as your a very good groundschool instructor. (I know, ive been your student). And remember "LIFE`S A BITCH!!!!!" :ok: :ok:

[Woolf]

Wee Man

Look if you go into freelance you know what the risks are. If you can`t stand the heat get the hell out of the kitchen. If you always want things wages wise to go smoothly go and work in a factory on a production line. The helicopter business is totally different. You knew that from day1 when you got into it. Who can you tell me ever made it by getting stuff easy...... And remember "LIFE`S A BITCH!!!!!
What a load of nonsense. It's because of people like you Wee Man that this particular part of the helicopter industry is in a bad state and pilots get abused left right and centre. Regardless of whether you are working freelance or not if a contract is made it should be honoured. No one is talking about getting stuff easy, this man is only asking for what he is due! If you and others think that being screwed around is part and parcel of being a helicopter pilot then the industry will never change.

Even though I don't agree with going public and posting this issue on a forum I nonetheless think that it is absolutely right that Pugzi should go to the small claims court to settle the matter. This way the company in question will hopefully realize that they cannot operate this way.

[Colonal Mustard]

when i very occasionally act as freelance i only work the next job for the company when ive been paid for the first one, seems to work for me:p

[wesp]

Having worked as a freelancer for a long time, the best thing really is like my previous poster says; be on top of the money, if you send them a bill start calling straight away for getting YOUR money, and if not after a couple of days quit.

In the case of being a freelance instructor get paid the same day is really the best solution in aviation. That way the amount is relatively low and it hurts less for the employer.

It happens in every business but you cannot trust anyone wit your money.

I also do agree that we shouldn't call names in this case, and it probably won't help in anyway.

* Something what really works is just to go there and tell them you won't leave before you've got your money. If they still don't pay come back next day. Never ever go to court it will only stall the payment for a very long time.

[Wee Man]

Woolf!!!
When did ever mention im being skrewed around. I DIDN`T. I told you I had business with Dragon and we sorted it professionally. Now on top of that. Its not just in the heli part of the world that people work like this. You ask any tradesman do they always get paid on time and they will tell you, you are mad. It might not be totally right but thats how it works. You go out on your own to make more money that means you don`t always get it on time. As been said by wesp, stay on top of it. Don`t come whinging to us on a website. Get your arse down to Dragon and get paid... And as for pugsy not getting paid the only reason I put a reply on here is because I know he will get paid. Dragon are one of the good ones. He has dragged there name through the mud and for that he has only hurt himself. All you law buffs out there tell us has he jepordised his case for going so public and naming names. I`m sure Dragon have seen this and if his story is not 100% true he himself could be in alot of trouble.:{

[tangovictor]

Its been some time, since I studied English Law, however it might be worth, looking into, the fact, that, as long as you honestly believe, that a person owes you money, you should be able to,
take something equal to the amount owed.
Pop into a good book shop and read up the definition, or ask a Police Officer the latest definition, if its still current, take something of equal value, obviously to be returned, in same condition upon payment, DO NOT TAKE THIS AS GOSPIL, just a thought

[Whirlygig]

I believe it's called the Romalpa Clause and it's a clause that one can put into a contract for the supply of goods before the goods are delivered. Not convinced they are worth the paper they are written on but if it's not in your Terms and Conditions before you supply, then you don't stand a snowball's. I also believe that it applies to goods only.

The only thing you can do, is to put something into a contract for services that could protect but it's unlikely a customer would be prepared to sign it.

Small claims, garnishee order - way to go!

Cheers

Whirls

[pugzi]

I have just recieved an insolvence letter.

[Whirlygig]

What sort? There are different types of insolvency; winding-up/liquidation/receivership/administration.

Cheers

Whirls

[rotorboater]

Shame, they were the only company I know of that were doing the CPL(H) course.

Very nearly parted with the dosh for the next course so probably saved but now where do I go?

[pugzi]

Sorry, it's them that are going insolvent and they have commenced liquidation proceedings through the Corporate Recovery and Insolvency Practisioners Andrew Michaels & Co. Ltd dated 23rd December 2005.

Loads of other paper work regarding creditors etc and insolvency acts.

Sorry to keep you waiting for the info

Pugs

[SAR202]

Roaterboater.

I'd check with Dragon if I was you. The last I heard is that the CPL groundschool course is still up and running.

[helicopter-redeye]

If the business is up for sale then I expect somebody will ride in as a "white knight" to buy it as a going concern for the :-

1. FTO approvals for CPL Modular flying

2. JAR approvals for CPL Modular GS

3. RF approvals for PPL

4. Cash Flow from existing commercial and pleasure flying work that must have been sold as gift vouchers

5. The Waddington Airshow FY06 Contract


At this rate I'll be the last helicopter in the hanger in Sheffield ...

h-r:\


NB What is Rep Power and is being a "2" good ???

[headsethair]

Classic case - file insolvency on Dec 23rd just as legal system shuts down for at least 2 weeks. Complete b****rds. Go for the Directors of the company - find their home addresses with a simple Companies House search for about £4 - get them for trading whilst knowingly insolvent. Give 'em grief.

And watch our for the phoenix rising from the ashes as one of the directors tries to buy the residue from the Administrator : "Dragon (2006) Ltd" no doubt.:{

[Helinut]

I have worked freelance for a very long time, both in helicopters and elsewhere. Not getting paid within the agreed terms when there is no doubt that services have been provided OK has always made me mad. I guess that I have developed some rules for myself:

1. Don't just have 1 customer & do keep looking for additional sources of work. Be choosy about who you work for, if you can.
2. If a customer starts to pay late, chase the money early, don't let the debt build up to one that you cannot afford to lose. The suggestion about small claims is a good idea: it gets easier once you have done it once. A winding-up order (see 1 of Whirlygig's posts) is a powerful weapon.
3. Keep your ear close to the ground, and keep an eye on the way that the business is going. I have given up on several outfits (having got paid all they owe me) and they have gone bust a short while after.
4. If a customer operates routinely as a late payer, find a new customer. As a sole trader you only need to find enough work for one person. I naturally gravitate to my customers who are better payers - it keeps my blood-pressure controlled and might even be noticed!
5. Never forget you are NOT an employee.
6. In a moment of anger, don't cut off your nose to spite your face...........

I have not yet tried the charging interest option, which I now believe is available, but the idea makes me feel good

[I know nothing about Dragon]

[headsethair]

It would be illegal for anyone connected with Dragon to open up a new businesss witha similar name. PUGZI: did you register with moneyclaim.gov as I said ages ago?

If you have a lodged claim you may be able to get preferential treatment as a creditor. Unless the banks have got to the road pizza first.

[Whirlygig]

Well, that all depends on the type of insolvency. From the extra Pugzi has added, it sounds like creditors liquidation (which suggests someone did go for the compulsory winding-up order that I mentioned).

Therefore, the order of preferential treatment in these cases is:

1. The liquidator!
2. The Government - outstanding PAYE, VAT etc.
3. Employees but only up to a prescribed limit (used to be £800 but I hope that's gone up since I last did this!). After that the balance gets lumped with trade creditors.
4. Those with a charge against the company i.e. any mortgages where a fixed assets has been charged as security e.g. a helicopter leasing company, banks.
5. Debenture holder (unlikely to be any)
6. Trade creditors
7. Ordinary share holders

All the other ordinary and trade creditors are pooled together and whatever funds are left after 1. to 5. above have been paid is "divvied" up, pro-rata, amongst the remainding creditors. No-one, at this stage, will get preferential treatment, whether they've already lodge a claim or not.

The only time this MIGHT make a difference is if the company goes into Administration. This is where an Insolvency Practitioner is brought in to try and save the company with a view to it trading again. Doesn't sound like Administration although perhaps this business should have called in the Administrators before the Creditors applied for Liquidation!

Liquidation is the winding-up of the company, the company (not necessarily the business - they are separate) will be killed. There cannot be any White Knights here - that would only happen if the company had gone for Administration.

The directors may or may not be disqualified from being company directors again; it depends on whether the courts find they were culpably negligent.

For those who care, Receivership is where a debenture holder or Mortgage holder wants to redeem their loan and so they go in an repossess the asset on which the debt was secured.

Cheers

Whirls







7. Ordinary share holders

[pugzi]

Headsethair
I did go through moneyclaim and had the official reply from the said company through moneyclaim agreeing to the debt and agreeing when they would settle. Alas, they filed for liquidation before the payemnt due date.

Pugs

[muffin]

I just checked and it has not even got on to the Companies House database as of this evening. Both Directors have local addresses and they each have several Directorships registered. I would not be at all surprised to see a Phoenix arise from the ashes. It has happened to me all too often, usually when we are owed many thousands.

[headsethair]

Uncle Ian's gone quiet :confused:

[EESDL]

Good Luck Puqzi and a happy New Year!!
Hope you get atleast some money back.
PM me with your cv as we may have a future need for freelance pilots - as long as you don't mind flying charters out of Leeds!!

[pugzi]

EESDL

It's been a long while since someone made me smile and giggle. Sorry if you presumed I was a helicopter pilot, I am a pilot, or rather I was 6 years ago anyway. Now I just teach, I'm a ground instructor these days and try to help guys get their ATPL's or CPL's in Dragon's case. I teach fixed wing mainly, but Dragon were desperate for help on Met, Ops and Helicopter Perf (which i'm no expert on). I'm flattered and I thank you for making my evening.

Kind Regards

Pugs

[Sa341]

Pugs,

You may be interested to know that Dragon are "still trading" and looking for CPL students. From what I hear they are reshuffling the company and are looking to keep the same directors but getting rid of all the debts through liquidation which was on the old Dragon Helis company.

Who knows what is correct I am sure it will all come out in the end what really is happening - but I wish you luck in getting you money which was earnt fair and square

[Hedski]

Pugzi, like I said before: Fly by Night!!!:hmm:

[r22-male]

pugzi nyou were excellent at met at gnd cpl for dragon all from the irish brigade

[Flapping Doctor]

Hi All

Does any one have experience of Dragon Helicopters' JAA CPL(H)Theoretical Knowledge Distance Learning Course?

From Dragon Helicopters' site:
'The course has been specially produced by Dragon Helicopters to fulfil the requirements of a Commercial Pilot’s Licence (Helicopters) course without need to take the thirteen ATPL(A) aeroplane examinations, which contain a lot of content irrelevant to the helicopter industry. The course leads to nine exams pertinent to helicopter VFR operations – no IFR elements are covered'.

I'm not so much interested in the pros and cons of CPL vs ATPL - this has been covered in another thread - more the quality of the course; standard of teaching, extent of help with any problems the student may have etc.

Any comments greatly appreciated

Thanks

[Whirlygig]

Flapping Doctor

Check your PMs

zxcvbn

Although I've not had it specifically confirmed, Dragon have gone into Administration.

This is where Qualified Insolvency Practitioners go into a business with the aim of getting it back onto its feet. Receivership is where mortgage/bond holders (i.e. those who have loaned the company funds secured on their assets) want to realise the bond and therefore those assets which are secured need to be liquidated. Liquidation is the death of the company. Receivership can result in Liquidation (but not necessarily) but Administration is usually succesful in bringing about a turnaround in the company's affairs and usually involves restructuring the debt.

Cheers

Whirls

[helicopter-redeye]

The Sheffield Telegraph last week reported that the company is in liquidation but that they had only a few debts, and almost no assets.

One of the co-owners of the flying asset told me that the company is now trading as 'Dash Aviation' which was the name under which the AOC is operated and that it is business as usual.

So I guess you would have to check with them the status of the company and then establish details about the course.

NB welcome to Prune and your first post, Flapping Doctor (from Bristol...) :hmm: :hmm:

NNB I@m glad I've got past 666 posts without noticing, just like Kissmysquirrel did last week ...

[Whirlygig]

Yes, that sounds like Administration. The Limited Company is separate to the business; the company can be liquidated whilst the business can continue after restructuring.

Cheers

Whirls

[bullshitproof]

Why risk dealing with a dodgy company.

[Flapping Doctor]

Thanks all for the input - very useful

Redeye:
"Don't believe they offer a CPL(H) ground school, which was the question ??"

As I understand it, the course is distance learning with a couple of classroom phases. Not sure if that is what you're getting at (?)

[helicopter-redeye]

Your asking about the CPL(H) Groundschool. To do the groundschool either take the ATPL(H) (note not A as you noted from their website) 13 exams with either GTS/ Bristol/ Oxford/ etc or the CPL(H) with Dragon/ Atlantic.

BSproof indicated taking the course with another company whom I noted did not provide a CPL(H) or ATPL(H) groundschool (with a couple of question marks to allow people to correct me if I am incorrect)

Hope this clarrifies

Nobody has really answered the question yet anyway.

And anyway, WHAT is the difference between H and A in the core aviation subjects like Comms/ Met/ Gen Nav?? Surely there can't be a Met(H) or GNav(H), they are the same syllabus for everybody.

The non-A parts are POF(H); Mass und der Balance(H); and AGK(H) are our bits. Could argue Flight Planning should be an (H) rather than three hours on mostly airways stuff but do the JAR examine flight planning diferently in the CPL(H) exams??

h-r


NB sorry to keep adding stuff in, I'm trying to get some distance from the 666 numbers ...

[Heliport]

kissmysquirrel

So once again we live in the world of censorship!
No, we live in a world in which you're not allowed to use the forum as a vehicle to vent your resentment of named people who've upset you. The line I deleted from your post was simply that - a gratuitous disparaging remark which added nothing whatsoever to the thread.
(The other deletion was a link to a commercial website.)

If you don't like the way Rotorheads is moderated, I suggest you try 'Just Helicopters' which isn't moderated and may be more to your liking.


Heliport


(For the record, the deletion in another post was to a commercial website.)

[Whirlygig]

Why risk dealing with a dodgy company

BS Proof, I don't think there is any need to be defamatory - many companies can come through Administration successfully as could Dragon.

Cheers

Whirls

PS - I have no connection with Dragon whatsoever; what's your connection!

[paco]

To answer the question - they use an abridged version of Bristol's notes, which means they are very good. On the other hand, they appear to have trouble getting instructors and paying them (they even asked me, but long years in charter have given me a bankruptcy warning system). I know a couple of people who said they wished they'd stayed at home and just studied the notes, but the classroom stuff is compulsory. I know that's officially hearsay, but they are people who already have ICAO ATPLs and are very experienced.

To answer another question, the CPL(H) theory is of a higher standard than CPL(A).

Phil

[rotorbloater]

I used Dragon.

My advice;

Use a well established ATP school. you'll be using their books in a shortened format anyway and their practise exam web sites (when you find out about them)! May as well do it all with past masters.

Just my opinion

[Flapping Doctor]

Once again, thanks all.

Interesting and useful discussion when combined with the newer ATPL/CPL/IR thread

:)

[pugzi]

On the government website "company house" Dragon Helicopters is in Liquidation. Check to be sure that Dash Aviation has approval from the CAA to offer cpl (h). The CAA only knew abot Dragon last week, so just check to make sure.
Pugs
click here for company house
http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/d25c56921bd0e00b916d7b1a2341348f//compdetails

[Hedski]

And you also know someone who wishes he never set eyes on them Paco!
Still, the queen of the skies is giving me a comfy sufficiently distant viewpoint to see the proceedings. Seem to remmber the CAA being less than satisfied with the manner in which Dash's AOC was implemented in Sheffield, or a few other factors.......:ouch:

[paco]

Which queen of the skies is that? The approval cheque went off today!

Phil

[ARINC]

For anyone wanting to pursue a claim or indeed contest one, forget the small claims courts.

Do it online it's much simpler and all the paperwork the defendant receives is directly from the court. YOU can issue claims and warrants via this service it is superb. A must bookmark for self employed types.

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp


A full list of available services here...

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/onlineservices/index.htm

[headsethair]

ARINC: That's what we told pugzi a month ago. Sadly although he filed a claim and got a promise to pay, Dragon went into administration on Dec 23 and he didn't get the promise.

Suggest he leans heavily on Dash - who must not be happy that their reputation is linked with Dragon. That's how it is, isn't it ? Dash can walk away from the Dragon creditors without any feeling of guilt ?

Any principles amongst the principals ?? ;)