Logbook questions

[Ibanez]

Just a couple of questions wrt logbook entries as an F/O:

1: How many logbook entries are necesary on a 4 sector day (no aircraft or crew change).

2: How do you divide your time between night and day without having to look up tables of sunset and sunrises for different latitudes :{ ?

3: Do you diferentiate between PF and PNF??? ie PF = P1 under supervision & PNF = Co-pilot.

4: Where are these regulations writen down???

Any info will be appreciated! CHEERS!!!!

[banana head]

Sorry, have tried to cut and paste the appropriate text here neatly, but to no avail!
The enlightenment you seek is contained in the UK CAA publication 'LASORS 2005', which is available to view free here:
LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1591)

You need to view section A, appendix B, recording of flight time.....

BH:D

[Ibanez]

Aaahhhh - When in doubt read the LASORS. I was looking through it but its a never ending tedious process. Thank you BH.

[Trip Switch]

If you look in the front of the CAP 407 Personal Flying Logbook, you should find all the explanations there.

But basically:

1) Each sector has it's own entry, i.e. 4 sectors = 4 entries.

2) If any part of the sector is operated in darkness, then "the flight times entered in these columns (day/night) should be an appropriate division of the total time of duty during such a flight". Don't worry about being accurate to the minute, but use a decent guess at how long you operated with the big light out. Oh, and make sure the day and night parts of the same sector add up to the length of sector!

3) Hmmm. The way the CAA told it to me.... as a co-pilot, until I had unfrozen my ATPL, all my PF hrs were listed as P1 u/s and each entry signed by the skipper. Having unfrozen it, all PF was listed as P1 and no signature required. If you are the skipper, all flying (PF or PNF) is listed as P1. If you are the co-pilot and PNF then it gets listed as P2.

4) Front of CAP 407, readily available from most UK flying shops.

Hope this helps

Trips

[banana head]

Trip switch,

I think you might have miss-understood Mr. CAA on point 3. Even after unfreezing your ATPL you cannot record time as 'P1' unless you are the 'designated commander' for that flight. Basically the Captain and ONLY the Captain can record flight time as 'P1'.
As an F/O you can record that time during which you occupy a control seat as a 'required crew member' and are Pilot Flying (Handling Pilot) as P1/S (Pic U/S), which if you hold an ATPL does not require a signature to certify it.
You can also record that time during which you occupy a control seat and are the Non-Flying (Monitoring Pilot) as P2.
If you fly long haul or ultra long haul I'm afraid any time you spend outside of a control seat (e.g. in the bunk/ jumpseat) cannot be recorded in your logbook, although it still counts towards your 28day and 12 month (900 hrs) flying limits.

Hope this helps....:\

[Ibanez]

In theory, I understand it, but does it work in practise :{ ??? That means after engine shutdown you have to quickly complete all the logbook entries and then ask the Capt (who is by this time half way on his way home) to sign it :ugh: ???

Don't you just HATE paperwork?

[Trip Switch]

banana head

You are absolutely right. Had to go back to my old logbooks to see, and yes, when flying as a co-pilot, after having unfrozen my ATPL, all PF hours were indeed logged as P1s.

Apologies for any confusion.

Trips

[banana head]

No need to apologise Trip switch,

Considering the fact that maintaining a logbook is a requirement for every pilot, recreational and professional - It does strike me that there is little or no guidance from most aviation authorities on how exactly they would like you to do this, and even where such information does exist (i.e. LASORS) it is lost in an overly complex and detailed document.

No surprise then that most of us have at some point in our careers been informed by a licensing authority when submitting a licence/ type rating application that our logbook is in the wrong format, wrong layout, lacks signatures for thawing an ATPL etc....

I can remember reading a really informative AIC on the subject some years back - trouble is I can't remember which authority exactly published it! I've tried the UK CAA to no avail, Any PPRuNer know the AIC I'm referring to?

[Telstar]

So what happens with an electronic logbook, how does the captain sign that?

[Gary Lager]

Flying on an IR (i.e. night currency not an issue) for own records every flight that lands in darkness is all NIGHT, if it's daylight when you land it's all DAY.

I reckon over about 40 years it should break about even. ;)

[banana head]

Telstar,

Inability to correctly certify hours is one of a number of problems the IAA have had in the past in relation to the acceptance of electronic logbooks being produced for licence/ type rating issue.
I know from personal experience with them that I was required to print all of my logbook out and seek individual Capt's to countersign my recorded P1/S (Pic U/S) hours!! as at that time they would only accept a company letter certifying hours from EI...
For what it is worth I was also required to have my 'printed' electronic logbook professionally bound as they would not accept a bundle of printed A4 pages!!
Hopefully times have moved on and they have adapted, but JAR OPs does still require P1/s hours for ATPL issue to be countersigned, and I know of no way of doing that electronically!!

At least P2 time is no longer halved under JAR. I think I had nearly 3100hrs by the time I had enough 'qualifying' hours under the old regime!!

[Telstar]

That is dissapointing, the CAA are very forward looking in that repsect, but I may be forced to convert to an IAA licence soon. I really like my electronic logbook, I will hate having to go back to Paper ones!:(

[banana head]

I should have mentioned Telstar, my experience with electronic logbooks and the IAA was almost 11 years ago!
I'm sure they are a little less technophobic by now:ok:

[dv8]

Dose anyone have a suggestion on were (in the UK) I can get pages bound?

At the moment waiting for a suitably round figure in hours before printing the current electronic log book off. As banana head mentions its better than having loose pages.

[Ropey Pilot]

dv8

Depends how you want them bound.

If you want gold embossed leather covers I don't know (but it is perfectly possible university theses are bound all the time - perhaps your local uni is a place to start.)

However if you simply want spiral or comb binding most copy shops will do this for a few quid - I know 'staples' does in my area