Interception over Turkey ?

[Captain Mercurius]

From a local Turkish news paper.

Airliner Scare Over Turkey
From what we can make of a Turkish news report, warplanes from that country were scrambled to force down a German airliner that passed over on its way from Egypt to Munich -- but they apparently failed to intercept it. According to a somewhat sketchy translation of the Zaman Daily News, the A321 (airline unknown) reportedly crossed over Turkey without contact with air traffic control. The fighters were scrambled but, for reasons yet unexplained, didn't find the airliner. The news service quoted unnamed government sources describing the operation as a "fiasco." The news service said the airline was over Turkish territory for about 50 minutes and passed over both Ankara and Istanbul where contact with ATC is mandatory. It's speculated that the pilots were simply on the wrong frequency but authorities didn't know that at the time. "What worries us is that it is impossible to know the intention of the aircraft," a government official told the news service, on condition of anonymity. "If the pilot is malicious, if he changes the direction of flight and plunges; then the war plane shoots it down." :ooh:

Ok boys... steady do not move...and keep talking to the illegal Arzan.

Mercurius

[African Tech Rep]

What should worry the Turks is they couldn’t find the airliner.

Which Turkish paper ?
Want to tell my mates there to get it.

[Earl]

Doubt that they could not intercept the plane.
Another un-informed journalist stretching the truth probably.
I have a brother in law that is a Col. in the Turkish military.
Their military and training is very good from what I have seen.
Its the many other problems that should worry people in Turkey.
From the government on down.

[soddim]

Its the many other problems that should worry people in Turkey. From the Government on down.

That statement might cast some light on the failure to intercept bearing in mind that it is normally a decision making process heavily influenced by the government and controlled by civil and military authorities jointly.

[daidalos]

Earl

Have you heard the expression : "Malta yiok" ?
And this has nothing to do with the alleged incident.
Ask your brother in law about it.
:O

[Earl]

I stand corrected daidalos, but it is also common for government agencies not to work together which could have caused this incident.

[African Tech Rep]

OK guys – “off thread” I know – but I asked a mate fluent in Turkish and he don’t know.

So what is “Malta yiok” ? Please

[levantes]

Is it because of the lack of communication between Nicosia and Ankara FIR's and the A/c ended up tuned in the wrong frequency? There articles in cypriot newspapers sugesting that!:confused:

[Earl]

Same here.
Was told it has no meaning.
ATC does need a little improvment in this area.
But then again we have all seen worse.

[mooretk]

Off-topic but it might help to solve a minor mystery.

"Malta yok" roughly translates as "there is no Malta". In the year 1645, the story goes, the Ottoman sultan Ibrahim the Mad ordered his fleet to attack the Christian island of Malta in the western Mediterranean. Upon receiving the order, however, Ibrahim's chief admiral, fearing such a move would end in disaster, placed a candle on his naval map, allowed the wax drippings to fall on the little island until they covered it, declared to his adjutants "Malta yok," and sailed off to attack the Venetians in Crete.

[may force be with me]

It was LTU659. I was working that evening when it all happened. They didn't contact nether Turkey, nor Bulgaria. Nobody new anything. Which airliner, flight number, type of the A/C, it was all unknown. We, also, had a lot of problems with our military, persuading them to trust us that it was civil A/C etc... Fortunately, they have tried published ACC freq. and got in contact with us...

[philip2004uk]

I thought that planes have flight plans filed so they would know it's supposed to be there?

[African Tech Rep]

One must wonder how two people in Turkey didn’t know – but a guy in the Sheriff’s domain does.

But I for one thank him :ok: – it’s amazing what can be learnt here.

PS
So we don’t start another “what’s that mean” – for the non UK ones here – Nottingham = Robin Hood (steal from rich – give to poor), Robins arch enemy = Sheriff of Nottingham.

[may force be with me]

philip2004uk
You are right, however, somebody has to tell you that the squawk you see is related to data from the FPL list and to pass the "estimate". Nowadays, flight data, are exchanged, between two adjacent units, automatically, via OLDI (on line data interchange). The problem was that Turks, as well as Bulgarians, didn't have any idea what the target was. When pilots called us and said the call sign, we didn't have problem in finding them, because flight plan was regularly filled and distributed. Pilot said that they were transferred to wrong frequency shortly after departure. Why they didn't come back to previous freq. or, why they didn't use, or listen to, 121.5 I wouldn't know (Sofia was repeatedly calling them, but with no reply).

[N380UA]

MFBWM

What sort of OLDI did you receive and was a LAM send back?

[fireloop]

Egypt -> Munich

Why would you want to fly via Ankara and Istanbul? Dispatch error? Sight-seeing? Journo typo?

[BlueVolta]

Or maybe justv the shortest way....;)

[may force be with me]

There was no OLDI msg (that includes LAM) because neither Turkey nor Sofia had any idea what that target was (I guess that was why fighters were deployed). The only thing you could see was the squawk. Sofia was transmitting on 121.5: "Traffic squawking XXXX, FL300 contact Sofia on129.1". It was repeated several times.
Actually, there was one funny transmition "Traffic squawking XXXX, with squawk, hmmm (sound of confusion)" But that is normal level of stress when you are negotiating, with military, not to shot down something, that you deeply believe, is a passenger jet.

[Earl]

" may the force be with me"
Quote: negotiating with the military not to shoot something down that you deeply to believe is a passenger jet"
True: after the frequency change and no contact was made LTU should have been back on the original or last frequency stating no contact on frequency given.
I seriously doubt that there was any negotiating about a decision as to splash this aircraft or not, if so then this a serious
problem over Turkish airspace, maybe I missed something here.

[LLuke]

I hope it is due to lack of communication between Nicosia CTL and Ercan CTL/Istanbul. The whole situation there is totally ridiculous. Airliner almost shot down, while everything could have been resolved with 1 phone call to the previous sector. Guess it would be a good excuse to exchange phone numbers.

[soddim]

Far from "airliner almost shot down" it seems to be the case that this one was not even intercepted.

[threemiles]

@may force be with me

May be irrelevant to thecase, but just because of technical interest:

Assuming 121.50 was used for the blind calls from Sofia, tell us one thing please, how can you listen to radio comms from other centers (in this case Sofia) when you sit at the ground of an adjacent center (I'd assume Belgrade, Bucharest or Varna, from what you tell us).

Thanks.

[may force be with me]

Earl,
It wasn't only Turkey having problem with military. Sofia had huge one (that's what we were told, by them, that evening) as well as we (Beograd ACC).

threemiles,
As you, unduobtfully, know, most of the tran/rcv freq. antennas, for the centers, are placed on, at least one, dominant hilltop (we actually have three main sights). One that (that I know of) Sofia uses is at nearby mountain Vitosha, which is facing one of our sights (I would estimate the distance between them 80 - 100 NM). In that way, without any problem, you may listen to that kind of radio transmition.

[Ming]

My experience may be lacking being a 'low hour twerp' still looking for his first job but surely this aircraft was in no real danger. I notice the references to 'nearly being shot down' but I assume any nations forces would intercept and establish contact with the pilot on 121.5. Are there any countries where there is a 'shoot first ask questions later' mentality. I understand that in this case the aircraft was not intercepted for what ever reason so do I take it that if an aircraft acts in an unexpected way it could be shot down before an interception took place.

Ming

[threemiles]

As you, unduobtfully, know, most of the tran/rcv freq. antennas, for the centers, are placed on, at least one, dominant hilltop (we actually have three main sights). One that (that I know of) Sofia uses is at nearby mountain Vitosha, which is facing one of our sights (I would estimate the distance between them 80 - 100 NM). In that way, without any problem, you may listen to that kind of radio transmition.

The ability to make operational use from listening to adjacent atcs was new to me. This is not possible where I am because there is no way to tune a receiver to another than a preselected frequency AND to put the signal into the control room.

[Lon More]

Hopefully ERRIDS (http://www.eurocontrol.int/library/skyway/2004/summer/p34.pdf) (The EUROCONTROL/NATO driven “European Regional Renegade Information Distribution System”) will help in preventing such confusion in the future. Trials on 15th September with a Lear simulating loss of communication and shortly thereafter a significant deviation from the flight planned route, hence qualifying as a potential threat, and involving Maastricht UAC, the NATO Research Unit NC3A, the National German Air Policing Cell and the NATO Air Ops. Centre were a success.

Here's a partial screenshot of the info displayed:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/Badyin/ERRIDS.jpg

Not very clear but includes info from FPL (inc. endurance POB) present position, altitude, heading, all updated in real time, and all available to all concerned

[Kyprianos Biris]

Lluke
The whole situation there is totally ridiculous. Airliner almost shot down, while everything could have been resolved with 1 phone call to the previous sector. Guess it would be a good excuse to exchange phone numbers.

Here's what Jeppesen have published on this :
http://www.jeppesen.com/download/briefbull/fra99-a.pdf

[Wyler]

Ming

There is no situation in which an airliner will be shot down before an interception. Any such problems ocurring over any NATO nation are dealt with in a uniform manner. The Air Policing organisation (of which I am part) has a very strict code of conduct and we practice on a regular basis. Not only do we police our own soverign airspace but we have continuous contact with our NATO allies 24/7.

Listening to certain frequencies can be difficult due to equipment and geography and so, in the UK, we liaise very closely indeed with our ATC organisations.

[tolgab]

The ability to make operational use from listening to adjacent atcs was new to me. This is not possible where I am because there is no way to tune a receiver to another than a preselected frequency AND to put the signal into the control room.

121.5 being the emergency frequency where all airlines and at least one person in every ATCC should be listening to, it is quite strange that where you work you don't have access to it. Because as I understand, may the force be with me said he heard the sofia call the aircraft on 121.5, and if their antennaes are within range and contact I don't understand your doubt in him being able to hear the transmission.

[threemiles]

@tolgab
you must have ground sites of other accs in reception range to follow ground calls. This is obviously not the case here. (you cannot hear anything that is said and transmitted in Berlin down in Copenhagen, e.g.)
what you've said is true for airborne transmissions, of course
I didnt doubt it though, but was interested in the technical background.