Reds moving to Leeming?

[Clockwork Mouse]

The Look North TV "news" programme has announced that the Red Arrows may be moving up to Leeming. I presume this is a normal media flight of fantasy? It would be sad to move them out of Lincolnshire and if the Leeming NIMBYs have objected to JSF for noise reasons, they won't like three or four work-up sorties a day from the Reds.

[Confucius]

I'd move 'em to Macrahanish.

[average pilot]

It's more likely to be prompted by the changing airspace due to Robin Hood International (Finningley) than local complaints.

[scottyhs]

Id like to see them at Leeming being a Yorkshire lad!

But i think theres pros and cons for it:
. Obviously having hawks there already it would make sense enginerring wise to locate them at a hawk base.
. the area has many smaller airfields that could be used for practises!

However:
. it may intervene with the training sqns there
. May cause noise pollution

So i think it would be a good idea but there are a few cons aswell!

[buoy15]

Here we go again

How many moves have they had in the last 12 years ?

And at what cost to the taxpayer ?

[BigginAgain]

Sorry, but I think this is just the media putting 2 and 2 together and making baked beans. If, as is believed, Typhoon will be located at Coningsby and Leuchars only, then all that would be left at Leeming would be Hawks. At first glance, it might seem sensible to co-locate RAFAT and 100Sqn, and I suspect that the potential for other units to be located there has led to this speculation.

I don't fancy the idea of the Reds doing their displays up and down the A1, and I am not sure the insurance companies would either!

I also don't believe that the Reds work well with other activities - wasn't this the reason they re-located to Scampton from Cranwell?

What I am reasonably certain of is that their home runway is in need of some work and I suspect they will be temporarily relocating in the not-too-distant future so that some of the potholes can be filled-in! If I were a betting woman, my money would be on Coningsby or Waddington, which would still allow easy access to the R313 for trg. I don't believe R313 is an issue for Robin Hood, any more than when it when development of that site was first proposed.

BA

[Tim McLelland]

This story was being discussed on some other forums over the past few weeks, and I suspect this is where the local media got hold of the story.
Basically, it seems that the RAF/MoD is now keen to move the TCW (and the two Hercules which are supposedly going to be detached with them) to Leeming, rather than Scampton. The reason for this was supposedly because of insufficient space at Scampton, but it's more likely to be due to the RAF's desire to retain Leeming, which is a fully operational airfield. Scampton, by comparison, is in a state of decay, and the runway requires very expensive resurfacing. Half of the domestic site was sold-off for private housing, and the remainder contains building which are proving costly to rebuild (because they contain asbestos) and because some of the buildings are being overseen by English Heritage.
Consequently, the long-rumoured move of 100 Sqn to Scampton has started to look illogical, and it seems more liklely that the Reds would be better-off moving to Leeming, even if they have to make transits back to Scampton's airspace to practice.
Leeming's fate doesn't seem to have been due to "nimby's" but more to do with local politics in Scotland, and in any case, no final decision has been made as to where the final batch of Typhoons will go, if we do buy them (as mentioned in the recent defence statement).
However, all of this has yet to be clarified, and the only official word has been from the MoD, who said that the media reports about the Reds were "speculation". However, it's worth noting that (in typical civil service-speak) this statement specifically did not say that the rumour wasn't true.

[LunchMonitor]

Basically, it seems that the RAF/MoD is now keen to move the TCW (and the two Hercules which are supposedly going to be detached with them)

Now thats a good rumour, anybody else heard that 1??

Js or Ks ? any particular reason? too expensive for TCW to drive to and from Lyneham?

[6Z3]

No, no, no,

Of course you are all just guessing. The Reds are actually moving to Culdrose; an existing operator of Hawks, where the infrastructure is almost purpose built for them, and the training area is largely clear of other conflicting activity. It would also attract EU Objective One funding as it would retain Service jobs in the SW following the St Mawgan closure. Simple as that.

[Well Travelled Nav]

I was under the impression that if the RAF ever vacated Scampton then it had to be returned to a green field site prior to the land being returned to its original owner.

This may have a lot (of expense) to do with the RAF wanting to use Scampton for something/anything.

WTN

[FJJP]

Certainly the reason for not selling off a number of bases - Wittering, certainly, and Wyton. With Wyton, not only does it have to revert to farmland, but a public road and utilities have to be restored as well. To give you an idea of costs involved, when Wyton closed as a flying base, there was a scheme to sell off the concrete runway and sub-structure for road-building hardcore, for which the MOD would be paid some £3M. However, it transpires that it would have cost £5M to dig up and crush the material into a suitable condition for the intended use!

Not only that, these days pollution surveys have to be done and you can guess the state of the sub-soil after almost a century of fluids various dripping/dumped/spilled onto the ground/soakaway drains. I believe that this stuff can be found down to substantial depths - 40 to 50 feet in some cases. The cost of de-contaminating sites to that kind of depth? Hey! How big IS the defence budget?

Anyway, to close Leeming would generate another Iceland-Faroes gap in our defences...

[MG]

It would be far better for the RW fraternity if TSW moved from Stafford to Leeming rather than to Scampton, which is the current plan. I don't fancy the chances of a fuel-priority Puma trying to enter R313 when the Reds are airborne. Anyway, Leeming is often the airfield of choice for a refuel as it's about halfway to anywhere north. Scampton would be going out of our way and Heaven forbid that helicopters are seen in the skies of Lincolnshire!

[Tim McLelland]

Actually I wasn't circulating any gossip, just the feedback from people at Scampton and Leeming, but naturally you're welcome to believe it or ignore it as you wish.
The TCW moving to Scampton is already established, but more recently it's emerged that there may not be sufficient space at Scampton for their equipment. Likewise, it appears that there was a plan to detach two Hercules with them on a sort of semi-permanent basis. However, it now seems that the move isn't so likely as lots of potential pitfalls are being raised, and Leeming has been mentioned as a better option.
It doesn't take much intelligence to work-out that when the RAF wants to keep Leeming (and the MoD hasn't specifically ruled-out Leeming as a home for the final batch of F35's if we buy them), it would make financial sense to avoid spending any more money on improving airfield facilities at Scampton and simply relocate TCW to Leeming. Likewise, there's obviously no logic in consolidating Hawk servicing at Scampton when the Reds could move to join 100 at Leeming rather than vice versa.
There doesn't seem to be any intention to abandon Scampton completely however, not least because units have already moved-in, and money has already been spent on the remaining parts of the admin site. Seen as English Heritage are keen to preserve the more historic buildings, it seems likely that the station will survive as a non-flying asset, and if necessary the Reds could fly down from Leeming to use the air space. However it's also worth noting that airspace reservations and use around Leeming is (it seems) about to be revised in any case...
Although the story broke on local news last week, the basic details have been floating around for a long time and when the MoD has specifically avoided denying the story, I think it's fair to assume that it must be a serious proposition. In any case, it's pretty common knowledge that the Reds are less-than enamoured by Scampton at the moment...
Anyway, that's the information as I have it, and we'll just have to wait and see what options are actually taken-up in due course.

Incidentally, re 6Z3's posting about Culdrose, do people often post-up absolute nonsense like that on this site? And if so, what's the point? I assumed the forum was intended for the exchange of information, not pointless rubbish?!

[BEagle]

Since he's a naval officer, I suspect it was just a gentle leg pull!

A shame if Sunny Scampton should ever become a mere non-flying station. It's amazing how it managed to support 3 complete Vulcan squadrons of 50 aircrew each plus all their associated requirements including the storage of nuclear weapons. Yet seemingly there "isn't room" for TCW and its toys??

And wasn't it such a clever idea to flog off most of the housing.....

[The Helpful Stacker]

It would be far better for the RW fraternity if TSW moved from Stafford to Leeming rather than to Scampton

Err as far as I was aware TSW has never been pegged to move to Scampton. Being as it is a logistical element it was originally planned to move TSW to Wittering with the rest of the logistics elements (85 Wing, 2MT, 5001, MCSU etc) but as TSW is a directly controlled JHC asset those plans were shelved.

Last I heard was that TSW were staying put (in order to keep the 24hr west coast RTR facility available) and most of the Gurkha units were moving into Stafford to fill the space left by the vacating logistical units.

[Get me some traffic]

What airspace changes around Leeming? Do tell!!

[airborne_artist]

Incidentally, re 6Z3's posting about Culdrose, do people often post-up absolute nonsense like that on this site? And if so, what's the point? I assumed the forum was intended for the exchange of information, not pointless rubbish?!

Banter, dear boy, in this case ironic.

[Brit55]

Ah Tim,

I see you talk bollox on this site as well as Warplane! Your last post looks like a cut and paste of several posts I've seen on Warplane.co.uk from various chaps and is, in effect, clap trap!

Was it Red 1 who told you that RAFAT are not happy with Scampton or a friend of a friend of a friend? The Reds seem happy enough with what they have and as aircrew, they will be very aware of the fact that they could not be better placed in terms of airspace and transits.

B55

[The Helpful Stacker]

:rolleyes: at the suggestion that TCW could be important enough to require 2 hercs on permanent stand by. I think perhaps you are being spun a line dear chap.

Two *unts and a Wireless having assigned air support :hmm: . Hey why not let every 'tac' part of the RAF have aircraft on standby.

Perhaps a squadron of Chinooks for TSW, a C17 for MCSU and a Vickers funbus for TPW. Forget about the relatively small size of the AT fleet, give every group of green wearing blunties with their own special badges some aircraft and to hell with supporting anyone else......

:rolleyes: x 2

[Wyler]

I assume you are talking as a green wearing blunty?

The AT fleet IS there to support although, I agree, the idea of dedicated assets to each formation/unit is a bit strong.

As for the badge wearing blunties, if you are going to deliver air power you need C4I and that requires quite a lot of badge wearimg blunties, christ, even blanket stackers (god forbid).

[Green Flash]

What is going to happen to the shed full of Tucano fixers at Scampton? (not to mention the Hunter!). Where are they going?

[Grob Driver]

The hunters have already been moved out of their original hangar at Scampton and are now over the back of the airfield in the old British Aerospace hangars.

Seem utterly ridiculous to change the plans for Scampton at the stage of the game given the amount of money that been spent there over the last 12 – 18 months!

As far as I was aware English Heritage have control over the whole site, not just some of the buildings. It will be a real shame if Scampton becomes a non flying base. Personally, I think we should move the BBMF here along side the Reds and have a bit of a ‘pride of the Royal Air Force’ working museum!!!

[markflyer6580]

Grob Driver
That is a fantastic idea,conningsby is in the middle of nowhere anyway and an attraction like you describe on the outskirts of a big spot like Lincoln would be ideal.:ok:

[CBA_caption]

How many Hunters do we have at Scampton then and what are they for? Once dropped a Bulldog (on it's way to Malta) into the hangars at Strawberry. All sorts of stuff in there, but never heard of a stash of hunters before.

I often wonder what gems we've got hidden in hangars around the country. There's probably whole sqns of a/c forgotten at West Raynham etc.

As far as the Reds moving goes, it seems to me that there are panic decisions being made all over the organisation to save money/face. I'm giving it 3 years (till my first option) for things to sort themselves out, or I'm out. And if I see "Wannabestarrank" or some other name on ebay selling one soiled Grandmother, bidding starts at "the livelyhood of everyone below me" I'll be out alot quicker.

Oh, and heard today Linton moving to Scampton when the reds have gone. Thats so they can lean the gingers a la Marham!

CBA

[BEagle]

Sadly, the era of things lying around forgotten about in hangars has probably passed for ever, now that everything is probably on some computer system or other.

In the winter of 1968/9 it became too icy to drill on the JMPG at RAFC Cranwell, so Les Rodda marched us into a small supply store shed at the end of the flight line near the SBLs. As we milled about waiting for the drill session to start, I had a peek behind a load of packing cases...

There, in all its glory was an entire Javelin. I always wondered what happened to it.

[6Z3]

"Sadly, the era of things lying around forgotten about in hangars has probably passed for ever.....

BEagle, you are forgetting, I'm sure, a certain bunch of Chinooks.

..... now that everything is probably on some computer system or other."

like the Commodore 64 computer system the Merlin is on?

[Tim McLelland]

Stacker - Information about TCW moving to Scampton is even (still) listed on the RAF's own website, although it seems pretty clear that it's not going to happen now.

Traffic - As for the airspace round Leeming, I suggest you ask Leeming for details (if they have any), but they are proposing to make changes, I know that much.

Grob/CBA - Re- the Hunters, the RAF's Hunters left Scampton years ago. The ones that remain there (along with a non-airworthy Buccaneer and a Su-22) belong to a civilian unit which operates on contracts and does some air show appearances. They generally live in the old BAe hangar.

B55 - that's your opinion isn't it, and simply calling someone else's report "bollox" is just rather childish. As I've said before, you can think what you like, it's not my problem, I'm just passing-on information.

[LuckyBreak]

The official line about the Reds moving is that:

"...The RAF continuously looks at basing options for all their aircraft in order to provide best value for money. At this time, there are no plans for The Red Arrows to leave Scampton..."

Basically it means that the Team will definately be at Waddington/Leeming by March!

How about the Team move to Church Fenton? Nice little airfield, servicable runway, not needed by 1FTS now that Linton courses have only 3 people on them. Plus York is much nicer than Lincoln....

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim,

What is your role here?

Grob wrote..'The hunters have already been moved out of their original hangar at Scampton and are now over the back of the airfield in the old British Aerospace hangars'

you write...'Grob/CBA - Re- the Hunters, the RAF's Hunters left Scampton years ago. They generally live in the old BAe hangar'

hmmmmmmmmm....confused I is!

Anyway, about Scampton, the Reds and Leeming. I think the biggest thing that is being overlooked is that Leeming is just far too close to Teeside airport for the Arrows. Airspace infringements are a serious matter, and I just cannot see the Reds mnoving to Leeming for that matter alone.

As for transitting down to 313 - hey, come on, thats simply a non starter. The other reason why I doubt the move is the close proximity of the A1. The last thing the RAF needs right now (after the Chinook v horse rider affair) is to be accused of contributing or causing a major pile up, because someone was 'spooked' by the arrows flying over them or was watching them instead of concentrating on driving.

Yes, I'm sure scampton has a few problems, but I very much hope that the Arrows stay there and the base ramps up, albeit in slower time than was expected.

kind regards
TSM

[GeeRam]

What is your role here?

Grob wrote..'The hunters have already been moved out of their original hangar at Scampton and are now over the back of the airfield in the old British Aerospace hangars'

you write...'Grob/CBA - Re- the Hunters, the RAF's Hunters left Scampton years ago. They generally live in the old BAe hangar'

hmmmmmmmmm....confused I is!



As was said the Hunters are owned/operated by HHA Ltd.

HHA Ltd (http://www.hunterteam.com/contact_hha.htm)

[The Swinging Monkey]

GeeRam,
Thanks! but pardon my ignorance, where does any prior post say that they belong to Mr patulski??
I was mearly pointing out that grob had already said that the Hunters are located in the old BAe sheds, a point Mr Tim felt he needed to re-iterate!!!

TSM

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Sitting in ones office at sunny Scampton we laugh most heartily at the daily "latest hot gen" to come from the cleaner who has just come from SHQ/Combined Mess/Kirton/RAFAT/ etc etc etc.
:D
Those in the know, know what they know, the rest is wild speculation! ;)

RAFAT may be looking for a tempoary home in the next 12 months, while they re-surface the runway that has a number of pot holes emerging in it, then the plan is to return here. No big story there then. Just people making idel speculation out of nothing.

As for the rest, watch this space!:)

We are happy, and Lincoln is a much better place then York! :ok: :ok:

[The Swinging Monkey]

DTWH

Well said Sir! I'm with you.

And anyone who thinks York is better than Lincoln needs assessment urgently!!

Kind regards
TSM

[GeeRam]

Thanks! but pardon my ignorance, where does any prior post say that they belong to Mr patulski??

Well the previous post DID mention that they were civilian....
I was merely confirming this with the addition of said civilian companies name.....:ok:

[Bob Viking]

I may well be in need of assessment, but I'll take York over Lincoln any day. Shame I'll be living near the latter in the near future (and I'm a southerner so no question of favouritism).
BV

[Tim McLelland]

Blimey I hope you guys manage to sort out the confusion about the Hunters! I merely said that the RAF Hunters left ages ago and civilian operated ones now live there. I thought that was a fairly simple statement!

Descend - I'm sure you know as well (if not better) than most that the very last people to know anything about what's going on, will probably be the folks at Scampton!

I suspect that all of the options will eventually centre on whether the MoD think's it's worth shelling-out a few million to resurface Scampton's runway, or whether it makes more sense to simply move the flying assets to a well-equipped (vacant) airfield, complete with a full domestic/admin site, up the A1. The other considerations are undoubtedly secondary to that simple choice.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Lucky Break

How about the Team move to Church Fenton? Nice little airfield, servicable runway, not needed by 1FTS now that Linton courses have only 3 people on them. Plus York is much nicer than Lincoln....
Church Fenton was indeed a nice little airfield but the runway is a bit short for a Hawk! Plus there is no Mess anymore due to the fact some d:mad:d of an OC SSS decided to bulldoze it (allegedly just before English Heritage were about to List it). :(

Equally there are no married quarters left as some idiot decided to sell all those off! :(

Finally although 1 FTS don't use CF much, the 1 EFTS task is apparently due to ramp-up towards the end of next year - and that will make CF bigger (task/student wise) than Linton!!;)

[Tim McLelland]

Aye, you're quite right, CF looks like it's going to get busier. I wouldn't worry about the runway being too short for a Hawk though 'cause it certainly isn't (not that there's likely to be any visiting there, alas). Actually, the main runway is a little bit longer than Valley's 01/19 which handles Hawks virtually every day.
I didn't know they'd bulldozed the mess... oh dear, another feeble attempt to destroy an airfield by stealth I guess.

[LFFC]

Who says that we will keep the Reds for much longer?

[RileyDove]

Being a little out of the loop with the latest machinations of Scampton - my choice would be the following.
Move the BBMF out of Conningsby to Scampton and some of the more historic buildings at Scampton be used for museum purposes. There is every chance that a lump of cash from English Heritage could be used to pay for building refurbishment as opposed to taking it out of the Whitehall funds.
The then displaced Reds could then take the rather short
trip to Conningsby and the empty BBMF hangar. It would reduce
the need for 'joe public' to have limited access to the Typhoon base to see the BBMF and the commercial opportunities for the BBMF at the former home of Guy Gibson would be far more intesting than Conningsby.

[GeeRam]

Move the BBMF out of Conningsby to Scampton and some of the more historic buildings at Scampton be used for museum purposes. There is every chance that a lump of cash from English Heritage could be used to pay for building refurbishment as opposed to taking it out of the Whitehall funds.
The then displaced Reds could then take the rather short
trip to Conningsby and the empty BBMF hangar. It would reduce
the need for 'joe public' to have limited access to the Typhoon base to see the BBMF and the commercial opportunities for the BBMF at the former home of Guy Gibson would be far more intesting than Conningsby.


Such a sensible idea.......so it'll never happen:E

Only flaw would be no doubt the pilots would bleat about having to get from Conningsby to Scampton;)

[RileyDove]

GeeRam - That's the slight flaw in my plan! Let me indulge in a little 'RAF Monopoly' ! Pull 100 Squadron out of Leeming down into Scampton to justify keeping the base open with the BBMF unit. The Squadron could then make up for any shortfall in pilots from Conningsby and also ease the logistics of having to take Hawk spares miles up the A.1 .

[Grob Driver]

GeeRam - where would the displacement come from if we were to move the BBMF here to Scampton? We had room for 3 Vulcan squadrons here… I’m pretty sure we can house 12 hawks and a few spitfires (Yes I know… Lanc and Dakota too…).

As for how the fighter boys would get from Coningsby to Scampton as raised earlier… Use their bl00dy cars! Or keep the Chipmunks at Coningsby and use them to transit between the two.

[Styron]

F-35 decision dooms RAF Leeming
Simon McGee
Political Editor

A YORKSHIRE RAF base is set to close after failing to become the host for a future generation of RAF fighter planes, sparking concerns about "huge knock-on effects" for the local economy.

Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram announced yesterday that he could not guarantee the future of RAF Leeming, near Northallerton, once the base's current Tornados are phased out although he signalled other roles were being considered.

Leeming had been one of five air military airports nationally being considered for the new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter which is still in development but, ultimately, a Scottish base was named.

The MoD said the noise impact would be disproportionate for residents in nearby towns and villages including Bedale and Aiskew where local people had expressed fears about the new aircraft.

Last night politicians in the county said there was a good chance the facility could be given over to the Army garrison at Catterick, securing vital cash for the local economy and perhaps even safeguarding the 100 or so local jobs at the base, currently home to 1,800 military and civilian personal.

MP Anne McIntosh said: "It's effectively the end of RAF Leeming.
"And there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll find another use for the airbase.

"We need to know sooner rather than later what's really happening, to work out the implications for the local economy."
North Yorkshire County Council had stated that it recognised the importance of Leeming to the local economy but had "serious reservations" about its suitability.

Replying to a question by the Tory defence spokesman Julian Lewis about RAF Leeming, Mr Ingram said: "There are a number of work things in place that could have a very beneficial outcome for Leeming, but they're not at a mature level yet.

"We'll just have to wait and see how they play out."
North Yorkshire County Council leader John Weighell was hopeful last night that Leeming would still have a military future.

"An announcement will be made in Catterick soon that may well see the Army taking the base over," he said.

"We guessed that the sound problem for the sheer number of people living nearby would make it difficult for the new plane to be based there, but we still want it to be kept as an MoD base."

At a press conference at RAF Lossiemouth, Group Captain Russ Torbet, Station Commander at RAF Lossiemouth and Group Captain Chris Birks, Station Commander at RAF Kinloss, said the announcement secured the future of both bases for the next 30 years.

Group Captain Torbet said: "This is excellent news for the station and the local community and will ensure an RAF presence for many years to come."



According to the aviation section on the Army Rumours Site, Leeming is rumoured to be turned in to an Army Logistics Centre.

[Tim McLelland]

er... that press report is what we were referring-to in the first place!

...and the idea of moving 100 Sqn down to Scampton was kinda where we came in - that idea has been floating around for over a year. Although nobody would confirm it, the persistent story was that the Hawks were moving to Scampton to combine servicing assets and thus save costs. But now that Leeming's future is in the balance, it seems that the RAF is understandably keen to keep the base, so obviously it makes sense to send the Reds to Leeming, not vice versa, and this appears to be where the TV and newspaper reports came from last week. Evidently, after all the unforseen costs that have cropped-up at Scampton, the MoD can't be particularly keen to throw yet more money at Scampton while a fully-equipped airfield is going to sit vacant up at Leeming.

The Army link has been thrown about, but this was long before the F35 announcement which effectively said that Leeming was redundant. However, a small (largely unreported) comment in the defence statement mentioned that no decision had yet been made on the final batch of Typhoons and that this might have some effect on Leeming. Personally, I think that was a political red herring and even if we do get the last batch, I seriously doubt if they would go to Leeming now, even if the dear Defence Minister tries to suggest that they just might. In reality, the final batch of Typhoons is more likely to go to Cottesmore, when the MoD finally (and almost inevitably) pulls-out of whatever is left of the F35 programme.

As for the comment about whether the Reds will even survive, well it's common knowledge that the idea of transferring to Tucanos has been thrown-around for ages now, as has the possibility of disbanding the team entirely, and of course a decision will have to be made sooner or later, as the Reds' Hawks are rapidly getting ready for the scrap yard. No doubt their future will ultimately depend on whether the likes of Bae will throw any money at them in some form, and if they don't then there doesn't seem to be even a remote possibility of buying a new batch of Hawks for the team - especially when we haven't even ordered enough to sensibly re-equip 4FTS yet!

Anyway, never mind Scampton, the real victim in this saga seems to be St.Mawgan - one of the RAF's biggest and best-equipped airfields in a uniquely strategic position (the nearest major RAF site is Brize!). Now that the US Navy has indicated that they don't have any long term plan to stay at the base, the notion of basing F35's there (in order to justify the base's existence, and keep the US Navy happy) was quickly thrown-out and the base is supposedly going to be offered for "other MoD uses". Rather like Wittering, it would appear that the MoD can't afford to clear the site and give it back to its original owner, and Cornwall's councillors claim that they can't afford to operate the airport without the RAF. Meanwhile, the incredibly stupid local council claim to be delighted that the "noisy" F35's won't be going there, but haven't quite grasped that neither will anything else! What a complete farce!

[GeeRam]

GeeRam - where would the displacement come from if we were to move the BBMF here to Scampton? We had room for 3 Vulcan squadrons here… I’m pretty sure we can house 12 hawks and a few spitfires (Yes I know… Lanc and Dakota too…).

Huh?......think you got confused with someone else's post:uhoh:

[teeteringhead]

Who says that we will keep the Reds for much longer? ... methinks they'll be around for another 13 years ...

... but not much longer .....

.... think about it .....;)

[ORAC]

You can see where it would come in useful for Catterick as it expands...

BBC 1st Dec: Army plans for 'super garrison'

Details of £1bn expansion plans for the British Army's largest base at Catterick have been unveiled. The base is one of the Ministry of Defence's highest priorities to become a so-called 'super garrison'.

Proposals include 2,500 new houses, leisure facilities, retail outlets and up to five new barrack blocks. The development will see the North Yorkshire garrison's total population grow from 18,500 to 25,000 over the next 15 to 20 years.........

[Grob Driver]

GeeRam... I think you're right!... I'll leave now!

[Roland Pulfrew]

The Reds moving to Leeming wouldn't have anything to do with the massive amount of airspace that Doncaster Finningley Maid Marion Sheffield Hood International have proposed for their "zone". In case you hadn't seen it I would check - soon. This proposal if allowed will close another large chunk of VFR airspace to military and civil users.:(

They are basically proposing 10 miles on the extended centreline to both runways sfc to FL85 plus stepped up/down airspace to the east and west. Imagine a new Leeds Zone oriented 02/20. All this for their half a movement per week! W:mad:rs!

[Decisive Attitude]

...the massive amount of airspace that Doncaster Finningley Maid Marion Sheffield Hood International have proposed for their "zone". In case you hadn't seen it I would check - soon.

Check where? Are the proposals in the public domain?

I think it was reported elsewhere on PPrune that they would apply in March 2006. Have you seen something already?

[Styron]

The RAF should just get out of the north, they don't like it here, they don't like burberry and they don't understand the natives weird dialects.

Perhaps it's for the best that they keep out of the north, although why the north should put up with low flying whilst getting little economic benefit in the way of bases, is beyond me.

[teeteringhead]

The RAF should just get out of the north, they don't like it here, ... I first signed on the RAF's dotted line in Yorkshire, as as one who hailed from Sarf Landan it was quite an adventure...

... but one older and wiser than me advised:Remember my boy, under their simple cotton frocks, even strange-voiced Yorkshire mill girls are completely naked. ... and he was right!:E

[Grob Driver]

R313 extends no further than the Scampton MATS so I see no reason why any airspace expansion around Finningley should be a factor here. I don’t believe the RAF would end all flying Operations at Scampton just so Finningley can have some airspace to play with… Or maybe I’m wrong?

[Decisive Attitude]

R313 extends no further than the Scampton MATS...

Wrong.

Go look at the vertical dimensions of R313.

Is there room in the back of a Grob to put a nav in there? Might be of benefit... ;)

* (This does assume, of course, that Roland's mention of step-down airspace either side of Doncaster is indeed implemented.)

[Grob Driver]

Decisive Alt. – I meant laterally… not vertically!

Thanks all the same, but I think I’ll get by without a nav!

[Decisive Attitude]

Yeah, I'd realised that. :)

I would envisage that it is only the height of D313 that, if anything, would create a conflict with any potential CTA over Doncaster. I doubt the surface CTR would extend as far as that.

(Edited to add: I believe they have a standard departures that flow from Finningley to the SE, I think via the VEGUS and ROGAG intersections).

That said I've looked and failed to find anything in the public domain about an airspace application from DSA, which makes all this moot (for now).

Don't knock navs, they do have their uses - bless 'em!

[The Swinging Monkey]

DA,

Yes, Navs do have a use..........

Grob, I hate to be pedantic old boy, but in my time at Scampton, we had three operational Vulcan Sqns (617, 35 & 27) plus the OCU. Not to mention 1066 of course!! so your comments about enough space is more than valid!

I cannot think of a better outcome than Scampton becoming a working museum for the RAF. sadly, as has been said, its such a great idea that it will never happen!

Oh happy days....

Kind regards
TSM

[Tim McLelland]

I'm completely confused now - how did we get into some talk about museums? Likewise, how did we get into all this fuss over airspace? As far as I can determine, nobody at Scampton, Leeming or MoD (or BBC/ITV) have ever mentioned any of these topics... talk about going-off at a tangent!:D

[Decisive Attitude]

Tim, I don't think anyone at Scampton, Leeming, the MoD or even the leading TV broadcasters ever mentioned St Mawgan (at least not in the context of the 'Reds moving to Leeming') and yet you managed to dedicate an entire paragraph to the place in your post before last. Care to re-appraise what you would consider a 'tangent'?

Generally speaking, since these rumours surfaced there have been no facts from official sources to firm them up or add meat to the bones; perhaps some folk are merely trying to thing through the various potential reasons why the Reds might be slated for such a move, if at all.

As for talking about airspace, it was mentioned as early as the third post in this thread and has been a subject tossed into the mix a regular intervals thereafter. If the MoD know something we don't viz impending local airspace changes, this could be a driver for a move - just as much as doing 'something' to keep Leeming in business could be.

:confused:

[RileyDove]

Tim - the suggestion of an operating museum came from my notion of moving the BBMF to Scampton and the Reds moving to Conningsby. There are a number of historic buildings that could be put to good use in telling some of the history of Bomber Command and Guy Gibson. Scampton in itself is possibly the most historic bomber airfield in the world and the BBMF Lancaster could quite easily be the best known bomber in the world.
The BBMF is always going to be a unit that is scrutinised by the bean counters and if there was a way it could operate from an airfield like Scampton it would be far easier to introduce commercial elements to help fund the Flight without using involving the public purse.
A move to Conningsby by the Reds would also allow the public access that is currently required for the BBMF to be reduced a what seems increasingly to be the U.K's main air defence base.
The Reds would then still be within sensible commuting distance of most U.K air displays.
The notion of moving to Leeming doesn't fit within the sensible distances required to attend to display appearances.
Far more sensible to do the above and then move 100 Squadron
into Scampton to utilise some of Scampton's space - provide a source of aircrew for the BBMF and also bring the target facilities
aircraft closer to the Typhoons.
None of this is in the media and entirely hypothetical Tim .

[Brain Potter]

Coningsby Coningsby Coningsby ;)

[f4aviation]

The Reds need a clearly defined practice area that is clear of homes, roads, etc - there are only a handful of bases that fulfill that criteria, and Coningsby isn't one of them. Neither is Leeming - the only base other than Scampers is Marham, I believe. Sadly Coltishall didn't meet the criteria, either. :(

[Styron]

What Leeming right beside the North York Moors, the Yorkshire Dales, the Durham Dales, the Lake District etc etc

Too many houses around there :p

You could stick them at St Athan, plenty of facilities there and they have the whole of Wales to train over.

[teeteringhead]

You could stick them at St Athan ...mmmm ... on an airfield that lies entirely within the Class D airspace of an international airport which is less than 3 nm away at its closest - oh and with runways very much not parallel (40 degrees apart) ....

.... Ok maybe not ......:(

[Styron]

And Leemings not, it's only five miles from Teesside Airport.

I didn't realise the RAF were so picky about airports as there are constant near misses documented around Newcastle Airport.

Time for the RAF to stop it's low flying over the north, now that Boulmer is going and followed by Leeming, yes.

They can go and practice over there new home in Scotland.

[Bob Viking]

I could be wrong, but you appear to be a very small and bitter man. With a rather well developed inferiority complex.
Or perhaps your comments are just a very poor attempt at fishing for a few bites.
BV:hmm:

[Styron]

@ Bob,

you are what you drink Bob and I am from the north and a bitter man :p

The RAF only ever drink halves of shandy, so there not welcome in the north. :{

In fact the only time the RAF come up north now is to attend Manchesters Gay Pride Festival. :eek:

[GeeRam]

Further fuelling the Scampton flying museum thingy....weren't there rumours that the Vulcan would be operated out of Scampton rather than Brunters?
If they ever succeed in getting the money together to get it in the air of course:E

[BEagle]

And have you given any financial donation to help put the Vulcan up where it belongs, GeeRam?

558 will fly from Bruntingthorpe. Not Sunny Scampton.

[Grob Driver]

BEagle - what makes you so sure that 558 will fly from Bruntingthorpe rather than Scampton? GeeRam is right... there are a lot of rumours at Scampton that 558 will be spending her flying days here... I thought it was something to do with Bruntingthorpe not being able to provide the fire cover required by the CAA? - Or have you heard something to the contrary?

[BOAC]

There is always Kemble:D :D

[GeeRam]

And have you given any financial donation to help put the Vulcan up where it belongs, GeeRam?

Nope.

What little I can spare goes to the LPG at Brunters to aid the reconstruction of the old Wattisham QRA shed.
They are desperate to raise just a mere fraction of '558's funding to get the two F.6's under cover and create a 'working' Lightning museum.

[EESDL]

Am I assuming that the Reds would still require to practice over their home base (assuming beancounters would not tolerate any transit)
.....just to re-iterate, as it's probably been mentioned before....
9500'msl avoid adjacent to an estblished and 'growing' civvy airport - no problems there then:O

To forward the debate of Southern Shandy Drinkers (SSD)
I concur with the aforementioned comments of our Northern compatriot.

[Tim McLelland]

Not heard any concrete news about 558 being based anywhere other than Bruntingthorpe, but I suppose it could be true. The Vulcan's designated driver lives over just past Metheringham so I guess he'd rather drive back up to Scampton (where he used to be based too)!

If any of you fellas have any unusual Vulcan photos floating around, do let me know - I've just started work on my second Vulcan book and this one is going to be a seriously large volume!