Gliding in the dark

[Cha]

What do you do if your aircraft became a glider at night without moon or town lights over the forrest or mountainous area? Apart from cross your fingers and pray. Has anyone had real engine failure at night on sigle engine aircraft?
Only thing I can think is to go through all troubleshooting checks and approach into wind to get the slowest possible ground speed and pray.

[PA-28-180]

Cha-never (yet) had an actual engine failure...rough running a few times with some interesting returns. What I was taught, particularly over forest/mountainous terrain was:
Trim for best glide
Run the restart drill
Aim between trees...the branches will further slow you down and reduce impact forces - plus more than likely leaving the fuel tanks behind you.
If no trees (bare mountain) slow to stall and attempt to land "up hill". ALOT easier said than done, though.:ooh:

[Sexual Chocolate]

It appears as though I get first shot at the old and over used cliche / joke on this one - woo hoo!

When you get close to the ground, turn on the landing lights. If you don't like what you see, turn them back off. It doesn't matter either way cos that's where you're destiny's taking you.

In all seriousness, alot of people recommend a ditching if it's possible to find water. If you're over forrest then you use the standard tree landing ie try and stall just above the canopy line and drop in hoping that the branches will take your fall / slow it down plus it's better to have vertical movement in this situation than trying to fly horizontally through the tree trunks. Over mountains - when you can't see ****e - personally i'd accept fate, go for one last skydive and end it on a high note.

[Fliegenmong]

Also landing lights off until approx 200 AGL, then switch on - If you don't like what you see, switch them off again.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There's a body of opinion (as very well expressed in several of Richard Bach's books) that nobody should fly SE/night without parachutes.

Certainly I think I'd put more money on my surviving my first night parachute descent than my first night outfield landing, even if it means throwing the aeroplane away.

That said, I confess to having done some SE night flying, but generally when there's a good moon and I'm confident of my ability to see the fields. (What in a less safe era was called a "bombers moon"). On the odd occasions where I didn't have such a moon, it was an uncomfortable experience and I'm not sure I'd really want to make a habit of it.

G

[Gargleblaster]

Re. opinions to not fly at all at night without parachutes:

As you state, the moon is a good friend. Flying cross country in good moonlight is a piece of cake, also should it come to selecting a landing site.

Re the parachutes, I can't take that seriously ! Isn't it practically impossible to disembark a normal single engine airplane in flight in any reasonable time ? You can't get the doors up ! Not to mention any back seat pax.

[Genghis the Engineer]

That's surely a judgment depending upon conditions and the nature of flight.

But if I was asked to, say, take three pax in a PA28 on a moonless night, they'd be welcome - in my car!

G

[Romeo Romeo]

My plan for an engine failure during night flight is to point into wind, stay in control slowing to just above the stall speed as I approach the ground - probably with only 10 degrees of flap to make the descent rate as slow as I can. Probably aiming for somewhere dark unless there is an obviously well lit landing area and with the landing lights on so I have a chance of manoeuvring and flaring as I reached the ground.

If there's a 10 knot wind, I should arrive on the ground in control with a ground speed of only about 35 knots and as long as I didn't hit anything solid head-on immediately, I'd fancy my chances.

People seem to concentrate on engine failures but I would imagine that CFIT and loss of control are more of a danger at night. Has any analysis of the accident statistics been carried out in this area?

[Cha]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thought. I think it is good idea not to go or chose full moon night.

[G SXTY]

I’ve never had an actual engine failure, but I have had major – major – fuel scare at night in a C150. In the Florida Everglades, of all places.

The forced landing brief was short and sweet – pitch for best glide, declare mayday, point into wind and try and find somewhere near some lights. Not much more you can say – the prospect of gliding into the swamp in the wee small hours is a bit of a conversation killer.

To cut a long story short, we did eventually make it to a runway, but it was a very nasty experience (although an excellent cure for constipation).

Daytime VMC, I’d feel quite confident about getting into a field without damaging myself, assuming a little good luck. IMHO, pulling off the same result at night needs a huge dose of good luck, and that’s not a risk I want to inflict on myself, never mind passengers.

[MichaelJP59]

Perhaps on those moonless nights, instead of a parachute, carry some of these:

See in the dark (http://www.nightvisiongear.co.uk/Night-Vision-Goggles-NVG-Dipol2MV.htm)

Rather expensive but you could also use them to save electricity at home:)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Actually that's rather cheaper than a slimline parachute - although I can guarantee that no light aircraft cockpit will be NVG compatible (a big issue in military aircraft approval work). You'd have to turn off the cockpit lights and fly by feel (maybe you'd get a reasonable idea of attitude, maybe not).

The best combination would probably be an NVG monacle combined with a torch blocking the frequencies of light received by the NVG unit.

Actually that would be great fun to try - carefully and under controlled conditions. Does anybody have a set?

G

[MichaelJP59]

If they did work, I wonder if it would be legal to fly into unlighted farm strips at night using them?

[High Wing Drifter]

MichaelJP59,

I would have thought nvs would be more than a Monkey. I'm not a gadget-fiend but I am serisouly tempted!

[Penguina]

Or you could chuck a couple of flares out the window and hope they don't hit anyone! :\

[RatherBeFlying]

There was a book on night flying that had pictures of a Bonanza equipped with a number of tubes to shoot out parachute flares along with narrative on use of same.

[Sunfish]

Don't even think of trying to use night yision equipment for flying a private aircraft at night! There have been numerous military accidents using this technique. You lose depth perception and peripheral vision.

You might make a takeoff, but your chances of a successful landing are about zero.

[Final 3 Greens]

My plan for an engine failure during night flight is to point into wind, stay in control slowing to just above the stall speed as I approach the ground My plan for an engine failure at night is not to have one ;)

Like some other posters, I've flown an SEP at night ( had a night rating since 1994), but these days, the cliche about old pilots and bold pilots persuades me towards cowardice!

[IO540]

MJP59

I have used 1st Gen night vision equipment and can tell you it's rubbish.

On a perfect full moon you could pick out a field, but on a full moon you can see well enough with bare eyes, assuming reasonably dark-adapted eyesight and no cockpit lights.

2nd Gen aren't much better.

3rd Gen NVGs would do the job fine but they are expensive; a few grand, and cannot be legally imported into the UK, and cannot be legally sold here either (other than to military / law enforcement obviously). Sure you could get them (hint: they are openly sold in California) but are still pricey and anything less than 3rd gen would be a waste of time.

The other thing is that cockpit (instrument) lights would completely fog out the NVGs. Mil aircraft designed for NVG ops have special instrument light mode for this purpose; too dim to see with the naked eye.

So to land with 3G NVGs you would need to switch off all lights, including external ones.

As a last resort thing, I am sure it would work. But pricey, and you'd need to have them handy!

Personally, I will fly high over the Alps with the tops shrouded in cloud but would not fly on a pitch dark night, and avoid night flying anyway.

[average bloke]

There's a body of opinion (as very well expressed in several of Richard Bach's books) that nobody should fly SE/night without parachutes.
Great idea. You get out and leave your uncontrolled plane to smash into some poor sods house.

[markflyer6580]

Wimps!;)
The engine does not know its dark! No more dangerous than imc engine faliure if the cloud base at your intended crash site is 100 ft and there are 80 ft trees you will not see them coming either:}
(Just doing my night rating by the way:ok: )

[S-Works]

I have a 3rd gen scope on the top of my rifle for dropping furry things in the dark. Great for that, not sure if I would want to fl my plane using it.

On the other hand I have many hundreds of hours flying in the dark MEP and in SEP at night and it does not bother me. The engine does not know it is dark and I will just go with the old landing light joke!

[youngskywalker]

As for leaving your plane to smash into some poor blokes house cos's you baled out...well, is that not what the military do?! The aeroplane is going to come down wheather you stay in it and be a hero or not...

As for being "wimps", well perhaps you wont feel so smug when you know somebody who dies cos the engine failed at night! As I mentioned in an earier forum, I lost my best friend because of an engine failing at night and over the water (and let me tell you that a controlled ditching in the North Sea at night is not going to be my first choice) should I be foolish enough to fly 'SE' at night again. And by the way, his last words were to me "Whats the chances of the engine failing at night?"

Sure the engine might not know it's dark, but is that a risk your prepared to take? Not me anymore.

Your choice of course!

[S-Works]

Yep and my mate who smokes 40 fags a day reckons he will never get cancer. My best friend who was killed on his motorbyke when he pulled out into oncoming traffic also reckoned it would not happen to him.

But life is about risk regardless of what the nanny state will try and do. While I sympathise with your loss I dont need you to try and convince me or anyone else that your opinion that night flying SE is foolish is the correct one. We all free to make our own choices based on our own risk assessment.

[englishal]

Get a NV monocular from Walmart. I bought one for $70 and used it for night flying, SE, over the high desert in California. Brilliant it was too for verifying you were not going to hit a mountain.

Ideally you want tactical thermal imaging goggles

:O

[robin]

Surely the issue is about being made aware of the problems associated with night flight.

Most airfields I fly from shut at sunset, but on occasion return to the home-base would have been made easier with a 30 minute or 1 hour extra availability

I've had only a short experience but I found that just because God puts the lights out, does not mean I have to panic.

All flight is a risk and there will always be tragic incidents - I've lost my share of good friends in aviation accidents, but more through car crashes.

[High Wing Drifter]

Great idea. You get out and leave your uncontrolled plane to smash into some poor sods house.
Like Romeo Romeo wrote, my night qual included the advice to glide set the glide up for a dark area - no lights. Odds on it is a car park, lake, wood, etc - or at least unlikely to cause any serious collateral damage. Strangely, it is probably safer than an engine failure in IMC, because you have choices above 1000'!

[youngskywalker]

Absolutely your personal choice! just expressing my opinion on the subject like anybody else! Those that are for and those that are against, that's life!

The loss of my friend had a bigger impact on my close family than me, they had to let me go off and finish my night training knowing what had happened, not nice for them either.

I'll shut up on the matter now as it still upsets me.

Each to their own I guess.

[Romeo Romeo]

In order to work out how dangerous flying at night is, we need to look at the statistics. Perceived risk and actual risk are often very different.

The only fatal crash at night that I can recall was a CFIT crash. I can't recall any fatal crashes caused by engine failures at night in the UK. I would be surprised if night flying weren't more dangerous than day flying, but it may well be that the danger comes from an increased probability of CFIT and loss of control. The single-engine failure that people get worried about may not be much of a factor.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

In order to work out how dangerous flying at night is, we need to look at the statistics. Perceived risk and actual risk are often very different. I think that statement comes into the "true but irrelevant" category.

If, for some of us, the perceived risk is enough to make us feel unhappy then we ain't going to do it - the real risk doesn't matter. Do remember that we fly for fun, and that when it stops being fun the obvious choice is to stay on the ground!

(As a councillor I come across this one all the time, in the difference between "crime" and "fear of crime". If a little old lady is too frightened to leave the house to go to bingo of an evening, and you put in some street lights or CCTV cameras or whatever and she now feels able to go out, then a real person's real quality of life has been improved even though crime continues at exactly the same rate as before.)

[High Wing Drifter]

GTW,

I don't buy those arguments. Life just ends up as some kind of hideous layer cake with everybody responding to false shadows. Pilots know how to manage risk and that means stepping outside with the express intention of dealing with matters as they are, not as they are presented.

Hmm, I'm begining to write Jetblasterish :rolleyes:

[youngskywalker]

romeo romeo, my friends accident was not CFIT but rather engine failure followed by a controlled ditching and subsequent drowning due to extreme cold and strong currents. was several years ago now.

My intention is not to try and stop anybody as I really couldnt care less, but I would avoid calling people wimps for choosing not to fly single engine at night!

May the force

[markflyer6580]

My "wimps" remark may have been taken the wrong way,and it is each to their own. I think my wife is a wimp because she will not drive unless the car has airbags,power steering or abs,as a lifelong racer of all things vehicle,I find it ridiculous!
S.E night flying may be dangerous(?) as would being a ferry pilot over the atlantic without a life jacket,but for me avoiding something because you could come unstuck is not a good enough reason.
Not trying to start an argument here,just my view.:ok:

[Romeo Romeo]

Hi YoungSkywalker,

I was trying to avoid referring to any specific accident in my post because there may be those on this forum who were directly affected. I certainly wasn't referring to the one you mention and my condolences go to anyone who has lost loved ones.

I have fortunately never been affected by a serious aviation related incident and if I had I'm sure that would change my judgement. We all make decisions based on our own experiences and risk-assessments. Anyone's decision to avoid risk is valid and as you said, it's wrong to criticise those decisions (although I'm sure it was meant in a tongue-in-cheek way).

GtW

I'm right with you on thewe fly for fun, and that when it stops being fun the obvious choice is to stay on the ground! bit. I haven't flown at night for a few years now because it's not that convenient, but when I did, I felt a lot more at home than when I fly in IMC for example. However, am I right to feel that way? Am I doing something really dangerous and being blissfully unaware and if so, why is it dangerous, what can be done to mitigate those risks and is it any more dangerous than other things I do - like single engine IMC flying?

[Final 3 Greens]

MarkFlyer

Your comments that people are ''wimps'' demonstrates the worst kind of peer group pressure, which can lead to reinforcement of poor decision making.

Flying at night in an SEP is no longer my thing, but I have done it in the past.

My attitude to the risks involved has changed and so has my decision making.

But I will not call anyone ''stupid'' or ''foolhardy'' because they take a different view. Pilots will consider the scenario and make up their own minds, they do not need name calling, even with a smiley afterwards.

You ought to avoid making such crass comments on a forum where there are many low hour PPLs, they don't need your bias, especially when it is based on a rating that you do not even hold.

FYI, I have held my night rating since 1994.

[stue]

IM a low hours PPL, and have held my night rating since sunday. I dont really plan on using it much, its just there if a day flight over-runs and i need to land after sunset. or if i want to do some circuits at night and the engine does go "pop" i can glide back to the airfield.

I wouldnt consider myself a "wimp" though? But if thats what a "wimp" is, then im happy to be a wimp thats alive. :)

Happy flying all!:ok:

[markflyer6580]

Final three greens
I see where you are coming from and you are right that peer pressure leads to bad decisions. I never have and never will force somebody in to doing something they don't want to.
I have seen some pretty bad flying descision making in the past but I don't like to point it out to people since I am one of the low hour ppl's you mention.
I would hope that pilots,having put the effort in to training for something that not everybody can do,would not be the types to bow to peer pressure.Certainly if I was to try it in my club I would get a decent earfull of some body.
I was not trying to cause offence or bias people.:ouch:
As Romeo romeo says there have not been too many fatal night crashes,especially compared to people who pile in whilst pushing the limits of the weather in daylight.
My point is that if it was as dangerous as people make out there would be more accidents and a multi only night rating,most of the discussion hinges on "what if",if we all lived like this,not just in flying not much would get done.
I do not take risks,for two reasons:1)I have a wife and two young children to support,2)I do not consider myself experienced enough to push it!
I have enjoyed night flying mainly for the view and I will not be setting off in the dark to often however I will certainly time some flights for 30 min dark on the return just for experience.
On the subject I watched that program about the Air Transat Airbus that glided miles over the water to a safe landing-now that was some good flying:ok:

[IO540]

there have not been too many fatal night crashes

That may be because, taking PPL GA as a whole, VERY few people do real night flight.

By that I mean flying at 2am under a thick overcast when it is pitch black, few if any street lights down below, and zero prospect of navigating the good ole fashioned methods PPLs are taught. It's 100% instrument flight, IFR navigation. People that do that are going to be instrument pilots, flying decent planes, and not many of those crash due to CFITs or engine failures.