A Flighing Frelon in Cape Town [Archive]

josh sitanga

23rd Nov 2005, 06:21

"This Super Frelon is the only airworthy example in South Africa today." ....... as per the Airpic site!

I will be very surprised if this helicopter's been certified by the SACAA, and issued with an Airworthiness Certificate.

As far as I remember, the Frelon was never type certified, and the French Manufacturer had no interest in supporting it in a civilian role.

Maybe someone can enlighten me???:confused:

Also, why did the aircraft not fly as ZS-HTN for nearly 20 years??

Bravedave

23rd Nov 2005, 08:30

It was a matter of time before the obvious questions as to the legitimacy of this project are asked--- and the whole thing again descends into Huey like farce

I assume the Frelon must have had a CofA years ago, being on the ZS register? - but to be made current and re issued for new owners, Helibase, a new cert of release to service must be issued. By who, given that gearbox and engines would surely be due calendar o’haul and inspection? If not a special flight permit and test pilot (no one is current that’s for sure) would have been required for flight.

I believe there are no serviceable blades available in the world, and a few were bent in Lanseria, where did they get blades?

The above could all be called nasty conjecture if our friends are going to paint out the S in ZS and substitute a U – then take the magnificent beast to display at airshows and thereafter donate it to the SAAF museum…ja ja

Can’t wait for the next episode…nor can the CAA I’m sure.

glimmerman_alpha

23rd Nov 2005, 10:11

This can become a LOOOONNNGGG forum as per the Huey page.I'm sure LH,FM will soon post a reply on the "legality' of this aircraft....

Lets wait and see what comes up;)

Gunship

23rd Nov 2005, 10:30

BB it surely will be nice to see a great piece of helicopter flighing through our skies.

Sadly I must say I already have my doubts about the legality of things.

Hope I am wrong and all doc's are in place this time. :ok:

Life'sShort-FlyFast

23rd Nov 2005, 11:26

Guns, sadly this is hardly likely.....

Latent Heat

23rd Nov 2005, 11:28

Glimmerman, you twitch good bait however im not going to waste time explaining the "Legality"of ZS-HTN to you.

Yes Gunns only time will tell and here's hoping that the rumour mongering will then grind to a halt.

Tassies on me when this is all over.

Gunship

23rd Nov 2005, 11:44

Tassies on me when this is all over.
It is damn expensive these days you know.

yeah let's hope all things are legal and we have a nice machine with three motors buzzing around :ok:

Baksteen

23rd Nov 2005, 12:42

Hi Guys..

Good to see the Frelon in the air. Any word on what the application will be after the restoration?

Keep it legal! Keep her flying!

:ok:

Balloothebear

23rd Nov 2005, 12:52

NRWR, thanks for initiating the thread, lovely to see.As per previous posts,not going to get into airworthiness debates, just for the love of the machine, great to see her in the air again.
:ok:

B Sousa

23rd Nov 2005, 13:13

Lets see. This thing was pieced together by the folks at Helibase??
OK, what different would one expect ??

you twitch good bait however im not going to waste time explaining the "Legality"of ZS-HTN to you.

Whats with this bait stuff. All you morons keep saying your baiting everyone. I dont think you have a clue during any of your awake moments what "Legal" really means.
Since its such a rare aircraft and based on where it is now, it would probably be wiser to put it on static dispaly rather than suffer a loss.
GM, FM is away for a while, doubt that he really is concerned.
Maybe something from the Wild West will fill in the blanks.

Deanw

23rd Nov 2005, 14:39

The grey bus went for a decent flight this afternoon.

FM/LH, when am I allowed to come over?

Latent Heat

23rd Nov 2005, 15:05

Dean, AMO 938 has opened doors for you. Bring your cam, go for a ride in the Putco and post your opinion.

For the rest of you, the Frelon is all in order, paper work etc.

If only you could see the DE's smile:ok:

Frelonius Maximus

23rd Nov 2005, 15:25

Hey Chaps, thanx for the nice posts, (some of you). As for the rest... WHATEVER!
FM is away for a while, doubt that he really is concerned.

Judging by the hardness of the beast currently restrained by my zipper after two half hour sorties in the 'Putco' I'm DEFINITELY not out of town. Methinks youre a little confused about a few things, one of them being my identity! HAR!

Dean bru, pull in for a cold one right now if you wish, I'm buying!

Good to see the Frelon in the air. Any word on what the application will be after the restoration?

Baksteen ole buddy, dunno yet, got summink ya want lifted?

[QUOTE](no one is current that’s for sure) QUOTE]

Sorry Bravedave, not so. Also bout the blades. This isnt the only Frelon flying in the world, you know. Have you ever heard of a Z-8?

Gotta go, friends and frosties waiting
Safe aviating everyone:ok:

Deanw

23rd Nov 2005, 15:31

The Zhi-8 (Z-8) is the naval utility helicopter built by Changhe Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG) in Jingdezhen, Jiangxi Province. The helicopter is a reverse-engineering of the French SA 321Ja Super Frelon utility helicopter, which is also in service with the PLA Navy in a small number. The Z-8 is also produced in army transport variant Z-8A and utility variant Z-8F.

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/helo/z-8e.jpg

Gunship

23rd Nov 2005, 15:45

GM, FM is away for a while, doubt that he really is concerned.

There are 2 Foxtrot Mike's Bert.

One concerned one Frelonius Maximus (note FRELONius :E ... and Francois Marais.

The helicopter is a reverse-engineering of the French SA 321Ja Super Frelon utility helicopter

Is that the best word for a COPY they could think of ? :E:E:E

B Sousa

24th Nov 2005, 00:17

I'm DEFINITELY not out of town. Methinks youre a little confused about a few things, one of them being my identity! HAR!

I stand corrected. I was refering to someone else who uses his own name rather than anonymity in posting here.

Frelonius Maximus

24th Nov 2005, 03:58

Thanx for the pic Dean.

As the street walkers by the waterfront would say," Freeloadin Minimus"

Weak Bert, but I guess an attempt at humour is better than no humour at all!
Well done!

Morning all, have an incident-free day:ok:

Latent Heat

24th Nov 2005, 05:55

Bert, the ATC, Pprune party and the Return-of-the-Putco party takes place at Ferryman's this coming Saturday.

Dont miss out, its going to be a "Bash"!

Deanw

24th Nov 2005, 09:45

The beast went flying again this morning!

Herewith some photos:

Startup
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/p51mustang/Super%20Frelon/IMG_2066s.jpg

Lift-off
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/p51mustang/Super%20Frelon/IMG_2079.jpg

Climbout
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/p51mustang/Super%20Frelon/IMG_2083.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/p51mustang/Super%20Frelon/IMG_2086.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/p51mustang/Super%20Frelon/IMG_2089.jpg

Coming in to land
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/p51mustang/Super%20Frelon/IMG_2155.jpg

Panel
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/p51mustang/Super%20Frelon/IMG_2034.jpg

The big boys on the block
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/p51mustang/Super%20Frelon/IMG_2166.jpg

B Sousa

24th Nov 2005, 12:39

FM
Your right on that. Uncalled for........Its been removed.

Since we are now on the Frelon topic Boys and Girls, lets dump a couple Pearls of wisdom here. Firstly before you all jump on the bandwagon. I wouldnt know a Frelon if it was the only Aircraft on the ramp.........Having said that there are a few things that most all pilots know when it comes to the heavies.
Something We call BIM indicators. There a little guage or window that sits on the blade near the hub that show indications of a blade going bad. Usually its from a Nitrogen charged blade. The charge runs through the spar and if there are indications of a crack, the BIM indicator will change color. I believe in this case the rule may say. "If they are white, its ready for flight. If they are red, you may soon be dead." OR if they are painted over so nobody can tell, its just downright criminal.
Different Aircraft are done in different ways.
An example of not taking these seriously occurred in the states a few years back on a CH-54 (S-64) Crane. Preflight revealed a bad BIM indicator. The blade was recharged while drooping and all was well. ( should never have been allowed) Soon after the aircraft took flight and was about 1500' AGL, the blade now in motion, failed. The description of the disintegration of the helicopter by the chase crew would turn your stomach..
Preflight is very important, when it involves these folks its a mandatory..
Second Pearl is the good old CAA Laws as to registration.
The ZS on that puppy will be good as long as its minimum crew and in a test flying stage. Once a passenger sits his money paying butt and it lifts off........its called "In Violation" Want to guess what will happen soon??

Bravedave

24th Nov 2005, 19:26

FM.. in answer, Z8's might be flying and so are BK117 Kawasaki 's Ha So.. makes f. all difference china ...they are not certified for flight in this country..where did you get the blades..behind the hangars at Ysters??? the bar counter at 15 ??

Frelonius Maximus

25th Nov 2005, 04:41

Mornin all,

Thanx for the gen on the BIMs, Bert. These are definitely not painted. Did somebody REALLY do that? Thats almost beyond belief!
No, theyre checked, and they work. in this case, theyre yello when the press is correct, and were yello on the blades before refurb I.A.W.M.M. I fitted the blades myself, have flown in the machine, and would have no qualms about taking my beautiful 4yr old daughter flying in it. She really digs flying in the huey too!

The ZS on that puppy will be good as long as its minimum crew and in a test flying stage. Once a passenger sits his money paying butt and it lifts off........its called "In Violation" Want to guess what will happen soon??

Bert, here we have somethin in caa regs called part 96 which makes provision for just that. I understand thats not the case there.

Later chaps
an incident-free day to you all:ok:

Gunship

25th Nov 2005, 04:45

She realy looks luvely :ok:

Thanks for the pics Dean.

Captain Pheremone

25th Nov 2005, 05:16

Hi guys and gals.

Hey Dean.....nice pics of the Frelon...at least LH kept his promised to allow you in.

Quick word on BIM indicators. The Maintenance Manuals of most helicopters that I have flown incorporating BIM indicators do not call for the blades to be discarded/rejected the moment an indicator turns red.

The blade spars can be recharged with Nitrogen and depending on aircraft type, monitored over a period of time; first on the ground and then in flight after which any further degradation will be dealt with repectively. e.g. replace leaking valves, blade crack test etc.

I hope no pilot will purposefully fly a machine that is suspected of more serious fault. So if the Frelon Blades are servicable, good. If not, throw them away.

Frelonius Maximus

25th Nov 2005, 12:17

Hi Guyz,

Seems to me there are those who are truly appreciative of the machine and the long hours of toil involved in getting her airborne again after so many years of dormancy, while there are others who, because of who owns it, who just want to stir the proverbial 'sof n smelly'. To THEM...grow up, get a life, or better yet go flying!

Knocking off now, moving over to the pub. Anyone within the range of your helo's tanks is welcome to come over for a cold one!

Have a rewarding weekend of aviation:ok:

B Sousa

25th Nov 2005, 15:44

Bert, here we have somethin in caa regs called part 96 which makes provision for just that. I understand thats not the case there.

That is correct. FARs say that if it flys, it must meet all the requirements. It appears not so in SA. Good for you all for a while...
By the way Falling Things, be aware that it may be a nice hobby playing with old warbirds, but in your other life Im sure some are watching closely as to flaunting in relation to the CAA.
Most Major Airlines consider what you do in any endeavor reflects on them also. So should there be anything that may bring dust to their table, could mean you would be destined to fly on the waterfront for a living. According to your posts that may be a good way to go...
It is great to see such interest in old warbirds, they are disappearing fast. We have to do things a bit differently in the states....Our costs seem to be in acquisition and parts with lots of free labor such as in SA, from those who love the old things. Seems in SA the biggest cost is in Attorneys and who they have to pay.
Good Luck and enjoy.

B Sousa

30th Nov 2005, 12:50

Come on Boys and Girls, You mean to say all is quiet and nothing is flying............
Something must be happening down there, aircraft on the ground cost money......

Frelonius Maximus

5th Dec 2005, 04:50

Hiya Bert, We dont wanna open ourselves to comments about running fore we can walk, and such, now do we? The machine hadnt flown for about ten years, so slowly does it. Besides, we were making the best of being a pilot short to install a few modern bits with knobs and switches.

We flew her into Ysterplaat on Friday for the airshow on a late invite. (yup, some others cancelled) only to have our slot cancelled due to typical military B/S! Disappointed hundreds of folk well keen to see the bus fly.

Anyway, all is well in the 'Putco' camp, watch this space...

Safe airborneness all

:ok:

GULF69

5th Dec 2005, 07:34

Saw it take off from Ysterplaat airshow. Not sure where it went, and whether I missed its display cos I didnt see it again.

69

B Sousa

5th Dec 2005, 14:46

Frelonius
Good to hear...comments for me means you want more of my rhetoric here.....I really dont think so.
Great to hear that the Aircraft is flyable and that it went to an airshow. To most people that would mean its finished the Testing phase and has been properly registered. I mean who would take an unregistered aircraft in to a Military Base.....? The Helibase crowd??, you have to be kidding. But again thats South Africa.. its on the weekend and the CAA is asleep.....
"Miltary B/S" they have that there too? Could it be something like maybe the Base Commander catching flack for allowing the aircraft in there??
Whatever........
The Photos do show a great love for an old and disappearing Bird. I share that same feeling. Its the little things that get in the way that make these threads on the forum prosper.
Like Paperwork, Regulations, ultimately Safety. But hey, Its Helibase, nothing changes there but the time of day.
Run, Walk, Walk Run?? Whats this??

Frelonius Maximus

8th Dec 2005, 12:32

The Photos do show a great love for an old and disappearing Bird

Definitely NOT disappearing, Bert. Z-8's are still being manufactured in China, And we have 2 more S/F's, possibly another to come. Also, with only 500 a/f hrs ZS-HTN is likley to be around for a while yet.

But hey, Its Helibase, nothing changes there but the time of day.

Wrong AGAIN Bert. LOTS about to change at Helibase, watch this space!!

Would love to stay and dispell more myths, but duty calls

Safety first chaps:ok:

B Sousa

8th Dec 2005, 13:48

Definitely NOT disappearing

Thanks for some fresh air, thought this would go away.....As to the quote above, that may be in your eyes. The statement was based on prior observations and the fact that with only maybe 3 actual airframes left, they are a disappearing breed. Same as the P-51, Spitfire etc., where thousands were manufactured..
As to the Frelon and the Z-8 being the same aircraft? I would think there may be something that we would call an STC for the interchange of parts between the two. That would be of course with the approval of the CAA.......Im sorry, thats not necessary in the Cape....(albeit a pain in the ass anyway)
Fill in the blanks. Is that correct or not.......

madherb

8th Dec 2005, 21:08

It is wonderful to see a 'Putco' in the air again after all these years. Brings back many memories of the old bird, still the nicest helo I have flown to date.

By the way, where did HTN originate - is it ex-SAAF? I know there was a civvie Frelon a long while ago - operated by Ancom if my memory serves me correctly. It was at Lanseria last time I saw it. Who is current on a Frelon, instructor-wise, in SA these days?

Regards to all the ex-Putco drivers - may cold beer and safe flying accompany you always.

:cool:

Deanw

9th Dec 2005, 06:07

SA321 JA Super Frelon ZS-HTN (c/n 169) has led an interesting life. Built as a civilian helicopter, it served as a VIP transport in the Zaire Air Force with registration 9T-SPF. It was then obtained by the SAAF in the 1980's, but was never taken into service. It was stored at what was then known as the military side of DF Malan Airport, Cape Town.

It was then obtained by Martin Gericke on 30 June 1988, who painted the aircraft in Ancom Jet colours. This was predominantly white, with rainbow stripes on the forward fuselage. It was flown from Cape Town to Lanseria in the early 1990's, where it had stood, derelict, until mid 2005 when it was delivered to HeliBase, who also operate Bell UH-1H Huey and AB-205's around Cape Town. The aircraft was formally registered to HeliBase (Pty) Ltd on 20 September 2005.

HeliBase also have ex-SAAF Super Frelons 302 (c/n 111) and 312 (c/n 135) which are awaiting restoration.

The first hovering test-flight was conducted on 21 November 2005.

http://www.saairforce.co.za/zs-htn.htm

B Sousa

9th Dec 2005, 13:13

The aircraft was formally registered to HeliBase (Pty) Ltd on 20 September 2005.

This would lead one to believe that the CAA has approved the Registration Number and certified it as Airworthy.
Would you clarify that for us.
Or was it just a Bill of Sale Transfering the Aircraft.

Gunship

11th Dec 2005, 08:23

With regret I notice the silence ... :E

B Sousa

12th Dec 2005, 03:05

Yes Guns, I notice. Maybe someone got the message, they dont leave themselves open, they take less flack...........It appears from the rumor mill that the Frelon has taken more than crew for their turn around the patch. Which translates to its nothing more than a large Huey in its operational status. Same disregard for SA LAW.
In the meantime, lets all hope that things dont fall apart while its airborne.. Pictures show a pretty site, problem is that paint wont make things fly that have been standing for many years. I have a hard time believing that this group has replaced the priority items with properly serviced ones that in the real world would probably cost at least a few Million Dollars.......not Rand.