B737NG Definitions

[Torquelink]

Presentlly selling some B737NGs on behalf of a third party and been asked the following questions by potential buyer which, clearly being v thick, I don't understand and vendor's tech. rep unavailable. Any help much appreciated:

"What type of cockpit display is installed, EFIS or PND/ND?" (obviously EFIS but what's the PND/ND all about?) and

"Is ISFD installed?" (Wot's ISFD?)

Thanks

:confused:

[BOAC]

May I refer my honorable friend to that excellent site? (http://www.b737.org.uk/flightinsts.htm) Just a short Google away...............

[Torquelink]

Many thanks BOAC - indeed it is an excellent site which has answered my ISFD question but which, clearly, does not cater for one of my limited intellectual capacity insofar as I can't find an answer to the "EFIS or PND/ND" question. It clearly can't refer to the switchability of displays between PFD and ND etc as it seems to imply PND/ND as an alternative to EFIS - and that can't be right either. I suspect that the question itself is incorrect and will advise my interlocutor to rephrase it. Many thanks for your help

[wince]

I think some 737NGs (Southwest & Air Europa) were delivered with displays looking like 737 Classics EFIS displays for fleet commonality. Do a search on www.airliners.net and you will see the difference

[BOAC]

TL - is there possibly a typo/misunderstanding there? I am familiar with 'EFIS' which as 'wince' says is the 'old' instrumentation in electronic form, and 'PFD/ND' which is the square, TV like screen layout.

I would suggest the enquiry was as to whether it had the 'traditional' EFIS instrumentation see Capt's Instrument Panel (http://www.b737.org.uk/flightdeck737500detailed.htm) or the more common PFD/ND layout as here? (http://www.b737.org.uk/flightdeck737ng.htm)

Another description here (http://www.b737.org.uk/flightinsts.htm) - refer to 'PFD' and 'Classic' and further down, ISFD under 'Standby Flight Instruments'.

Going to lie down now in a dark room................

PS Can I have 10% :D

[Torquelink]

Thanks BOAC - I agree, it was a daft question from someone who doesn't appear to recognise the difference between Classic and NG flight decks - even the Southwest -700 "steam-gauge" configured flight decks use standard NG displays as far as I'm aware.

Thanks for your help - cheque's in the post!

;)

[wince]

This is the NG with an "EFIS" type display. I gues that's what they might mean....

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=910714&WxsIERv=Obrvat%20737-85C&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=Nve%20Rhebcn&QtODMg=Znqevq%20-%20Onenwnf%20%28ZNQ%20%2F%20YRZQ%29&ERDLTkt=Fcnva&ktODMp=Wnahnel%2018%2C%202005&BP=0&WNEb25u=Wbf%E9%20Enz%F3a%20Inyreb%20-%20Vorevna%20Fcbggref&xsIERvdWdsY=RP-UOZ&MgTUQtODMgKE=Gnkvvat%20oruvat%20n%20Fcnanve%20ZQ80.&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=6929&NEb25uZWxs=2005-08-30&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=28382%2F256&static=yes&width=1200&height=810&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Obrvat%20737-800%20%28OOW2%2FP-40%29%27%20BE%20nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Obrvat%20737-900%27%29%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=16&prev_id=&next_id=907306&tbl=COCKPIT

[BOAC]

Ger'off - its my cheque!:D :D

[wince]

Torquelink

I'm more than happy with 5% :O :O

[sets]

The Common Display System on the 737NG allows airlines to select from two software options. One is a LCD replica of the old steam gauges (commonly referred to as the EFIS/MAP format), the other is the modern PFD/ND format. All hardware is the same, its just a software option. SWA and CAL are two operators who operate with the EFIS/MAP format.

[Flight Detent]

Hi,

All our -700NGs have the PFD/ND format, with the compacted display on the centre DU.

But I am much more impressed with the full instrument, round dial display, which includes the hydraulics quantities and pressures, everything is there on the one screen.

With our setup, with no centre lower screen in the CDS system, we have to select the MFD and SYS to get the hydraulic indications.

The "full info" screen is SO MUCH better!!

Cheers, FD :ugh:

[African Tech Rep]

I saw this had been answered – but started thinking about how I would have found the info.

The best starting place would be the Detail Spec – if the airlines had them since new it’s relatively unlikely they would have changed from the “as delivered spec” – so your answer combined with extracts from the Detail Spec should be OK.
A quick check of the SB Status should confirm if any changes were made – and obviously a check against the EO list just in case they did an “in house mod”.
OK – before I get shouted at – the latter (in house) is unlikely – but not unknown – you’d be surprised at what some airlines belive they can do.

[alexban]

FD:
we have the same display like yours,and I find it easier to use.All the secondary info's on the lower display,which has to be blanked after engine start.The automatics will switch it on if any of the secondary parameters go wrong.Why will you need to permanently check the hydraulics,or the engine oil,...?
I find the clasic,all round display more complicated.Just look at the picture above,even the PFD and the ND is changed,to have round analogic displays.No speed tape,the same with the VSI..
It may be easier when you go from classic to Ng,but that's the reason for the change:improvement.I flew years ago planes with no FMC's,no displays,computers whatsoever.
There were 1000 gauges ,switches,etc.We improved from that.
Why try to maintain a simulated cockpit of that age on a new glass cockpit of today?
Less parameters you'll have to check ,more time for you to concentrate on safe flying,navigation,radio,flight awareness.

Brgds
Alex

[xetroV]

"What type of cockpit display is installed, EFIS or PND/ND?" (obviously EFIS but what's the PND/ND all about?)Is this really a relevant question? As far as I know, the displays in both cases use the same hardware, the difference in display format being purely software-related. Letting some Boeing maintenance center change a few floppy disks for a new customer can't be that difficult, I imagine?

[African Tech Rep]

Ahh xetroV – common sense.
Unfortunately that don’t always work in a transfer.

It could simply be someone in the new airline tasked with ensuring fleet compatibility is achieved during the delivery check – remember some purchasers / lessees don’t see the plane until the last minute and even when they do see the plane it’s often a “small” team – I’ve dealt with acceptance teams as small as two and a high as twenty.

It could also be a “reduction finding exercise” where the airline asks LOTS of questions – finds a few “non compatibilities” and then the bean counters start saying “well we’d like the plane – but it’s not really compatible with our others – tell you what reduce the price / lease rental cost and we’ll take it” – here you have to remember the discussion will be between “marketing and finance” neither will fully understand what their talking about – except that it’s money.

I once had a new airline advise the lease company they couldn’t take the plane “due to the many changes we would have to do in the interior” – after LOTS of discussion it boiled down to changing head rest covers – to close the issue I did a deal whereby “we” did half they did half – so I simply removed every head rest cover personally.
BUT – that wasn’t the reason for the discussion – the reason was the plane was going to be ready too early for the new Lessee and the contract said “Lessee will take plane when it’s ready” (terms simplified) – so they threw this one and a few others at management and made them sound a big deal – slowed everything down and hence accepted the plane a few days later – saving themselves days lease rental.

As to this particular scenario if it’s not as the purchaser wants he’ll try and get the seller to be the one that pays the Boeing Maintenance Centre for the change – rather than pay for it himself

[Torquelink]

Africa Tech Rep - got it in one. They are trying (understandably) to define all principal differences between their present fleet and "our" aircraft in order, no doubt, to hit us over the head when talking price. You are also correct that, had we had access to the Detail Spec, we could have got the answers but the aircraft and docs aren't accessible by us on a daily basis and the owner's tech rep is snowed under. The aircraft are PND/ND by the way.

XetroV is quite right too but the trouble is the price Boeing charges for even relatively minor upgrades - let alone, say, paper increases in MTOW!