NATS ATCO at 18

[261A]

Hi,
I am currently studying towards A levels and I am interested in a career as an ATCO.
I have looked through the NATS Recruitment site and I have several questions about various aspects of training and selection:

1. The minimum age to apply for training is 18 and I intend to apply when I am 18 with GCSEs and A levels. However, I have not heard of any trainees that are 18 or even under 20, so is it better to get a degree in a relevant subject before applying for ATCO training?

2. In regards to training, I have relatives that live near the ATC college in Bournemouth and I (if accepted for training) plan to stay with them for the duration of training. I have read from the NATS website and from reading other threads that it is not advisable to do this 'commuting to the college everyday'.

3. On the NATS website in the FAQs section I came across a question about radar licenses. The NATS site says that they cannot issue any trainees under 20 years old with a radar license so would this make NATS delay me starting training or would this mean that as soon as I start training I would be trained as an aerodrome controller because I am unable to hold a radar license.

4. Is it more adviseable or more likely to succeed if I applied later with further higher qualifications such as a degree?

If anyone out there has applied at age of 18 or under 20 and has validated or is currently training I would like to hear from you as most PPRuNers who reply to the training threads say that they have degrees and are over 20 when they applied.
Look forward to replies.

[catcslave]

hi,
i was in the same position as yourself when i applied (well, halfway through my a' levels to be precise). I started aged 18, but turned 19 a week later.
With regards staying with relatives, it's quite a good idea IMO, as A) you'll save money, B) you won't have the hassle of trying to get out of a lease agreement if you have to hold at a unit other than bournemouth for some reason. On the subject of commuting, it really depends on how far you would have to commute. A couple of guys on my course lived in poole, and another in Hordle, near lymington. They didn't seem to have any problems, except maybe getting up a little earlier than the rest of us!
Applying later with higher qualifications won't necessarily put you in a better position than not having them, best to put in an application and see what HR come back with. If you're in the same fortunate situation as myself, you could start working just a couple of months after leaving school. On the other hand, a guy in the same year as me at school applied at the same time - but was a couple of months younger than me - and wasn't accepted on age grounds. So like i said, put in an app and see what happens.
One last thing - they won't accept you if you're too young to get a radar licence (i.e for a tower only position), as they only decide whether to stream you through aerodrome or area control AFTER you have started at the college (allegedly).
Hope this helps, and good luck with your application if you decide to go with it.
Nick

[Gonzo]

261A,

I applied at 18 on the strength of my predicted A-Level grades, and got in. I turned 19 in January, and started at the college that April.

Where do your relatives live? I wouldn't want to live more than thirty minutes from Hurn.

As regards your application, maturity is more important than age. I know people in their thirties who are too immature to become ATCOs (I even work with a few that slipped through the net!)

[261A]

Thanks for replies.

I am a bit worried now, because if I apply when I become 18 which will be in March, I will still be at sixth form, and if they refuse me I bet that it will count as a fail as in they will count my second application as my second attempt at trying to get onto training!

My closest relative to Hurn is in Fordingbridge, Hampshire which is about 15 miles north of Hurn and about 30 minutes drive.

I really want to be successful in becoming an ATCO so I want to apply as soon as I am within the age range.
I assume that all controllers need a radar license?

Gonzo,
I will be applying in March 2006 when I am 18 so what is the chances of being successful as I have good results from GCSEs and expect good grade predictions for A levels.
I did my work experience at an aerodrome near me when I was 14 and visited Gatwick and Swanwick so should give more reason to accept me hopefully if I apply in March next year?

[NT42]

261A,

I'm in pretty much exactly the same situation as you. In year 13 and hoping to join NATS as soon as possible.

I don't know why, but I'm worried about it! Not because I don't think I can do it - but the interview stage especially seems rather daunting! Not sure why really, perhaps because I've had no real experience of this! I'm almost embarrassed to make my next point, but never mind....I've lived in rural Northumberland all my life. Going to Bournemouth for training doesn't worry me. However, once I've finished I could end up anywhere (apart from where I am now!). And this seems rather scary - anybody else felt this? Again I put this down to age and the fact I've always been here. I won't, of course, let this put me off.

That aside I'm very close to sending the application off. I turned 18 last week so should all be ok. I was wondering, what can I (or we!) do to better our chances of acceptance? I'm expecting to have my PPL by June 2006 and doing D of E Gold, this year. A visit to Newcastle control tower will be arranged soon. I'll also try and get to a NATS unit too. Anything else we can do?

I know NATS don't specify any A-levels but do they favour certain ones? I'm not the best at maths, but doing physics, English and geography this year - hopefully they'll be ok?

Good luck 261A - hopefully we'll be on the same course!

John.

[261A]

John,
You seem to be just like me, I too am studying English and Geography and expect to get high grades. I too am not the best at maths and must admit only scraped a maths GCSE. I don't know what subjects they prefer at A level standard but English is probably one of the favourites they are after.

I have visited Swanwick (when trying to get a work experience placement there) and recently visited Gatwick tower and from the visits I found that Swanwick was very dull and boring and Gatwick to be very exciting and more interesting as it is a better environment to work in with aircraft you can see and not staring at a screen for hours!

I too do not want to be posted 'anywhere'. It worries me as I bet I will go to a small airport unit somewhere miles away from I am at the moment (in Surrey).
I know you have to sign a contract to be a 'mobile grade' in effect to be placed anywhere but I do not really want to go to area control or anywhere north of Manchester/Birmingham.
Probably just age as you say.

I have done the D of E all grades so should all count and hopefully accept me at the age of 18 as well as visits to units I also got work experience at a small aerodrome near me which was very useful.

I may write to NATS and ask for full explaination of what they would do in a case like ours.

[NT42]

I'm not too bothered about aerodrome/area personally. My 'worry' was just that I'm pretty young, and it seems daunting to know I won't be coming back to my area! But that's life I suppose.

I've also have another thought - I've literally just sent my university applications off. It's likely I'll be accepted to university before NATS (due to time scales). NATS won't see this as a problem, will they? If it turns out I'm accepted to both I'll drop university (and accept I have to pay the tuition fees).

It's debatable whether my nearest NATS unit is Manchester or Edinburgh so I'll pay a visit to either soon. Anybody know the contact details for either (or even better - anyone from Edinburgh/Manchester able to point me in the right direction?).

D of E will hopefully help. And the PPL for that matter. Any other suggestions I will consider! I think I'll send my application off early december...scary stuff!

John.

[Topofthestack]

I started at just over 18 and didn't regret it at the time. HOWEVER, after a long career in ATC, I now feel that getting a degree is a VERY useful insurance policy just in case you fail the very demanding training. It will also allow you to go for a whole range on ATC managerial jobs later in your careeer, both inside the major state employers but also within Eurocontrol. These latter posts often require a degree. if you don't have one then you can be at a major disadvantage with our continental cousins, who generally have one, and sometimes several! Taking a degree later in life is always a possibility, but the older you get the harder it becomes as you collect other life issues, like family, kids, mortgages etc. Whilst I've had an enjoyable ATC career, there are times that I'd have liked to apply for certain jobs but didn't have the necessary higher educational qualifications they were looking for. Whilst you can argue that the University of Life is better than anything, studying for a degree does offer give you the disciplines of how to study to a greater depth, and some analytical skills. Best of luck in whichever way you decide to go.

[261A]

You have probably read the NATS website but did you see the profiles page?
http://natscareers.co.uk/indexfs.asp?id=20051116

If you go on the Melanie Gates profile she explains that she dropped university after finding out she had been accepted at NATS.

[Lock n' Load]

261A - A few things to bear in mind.

1) Plenty of people get in at the second attempt, and some on the third. An unsuccessful application is not held against you.

2) NATS has several courses to fill every year, so if you're a few months too young but otherwise wonderful, they'll just put you on a later course.

3) I'd consider anyone who gets to live in Fordingbridge for training a lucky bu*ger.

4) Have a back-up. NATS won't care about you leaving a university in the lurch for example, but they will care if you haven't even considered your options if unsuccessful. I was unemployed when I submitted my (second) application but I was about to start a postgrad course in IT. By the time I was interviewed I was half way through my first term. I started at CATC soon after.
It doesn't really matter whether you're travelling round Oz or working in a supermarket between school and your interview, so long as you demonstrate an ability to do something useful. Having a place at uni, just in case, shows realism and a bit of character.

[261A]

Lock n' Load,
Thanks for your comments. I understand what you mean about having options.
The truth is that I am not really prepared to go to university for various reasons but I don't want to start a debate on whether I should or shouldn't.
I will definetly get a job so when I apply will have something behind me.

Begins to ask the question, what qualifications did you have when you applied!

261A

[5milesbaby]

I applied when I was 18 and wasn't successful, but thankfully I got in 2nd time when I was 21. The reason for the first fail is that they were unsure with the Personnel bits and felt I needed to 'get out a bit' so I took a year out and had some fun and did a little work, then went to Uni which I left after the second year of a 3 year course to start at the college. I wasn't doing any relevant course and it certainly wasn't what anyone would call a 'respectable' University, but it showed NATS what I was like. Overall I have 9 GCSE's, 2 A-Levels (Maths and Geology), and a diploma from Uni (Geology) for completing 2 years successfully although I hadn't got this when I was accepted, but wasn't far off.

I wouldn't start to second guess what NATS wants to hear or see, they will be looking for you to be as natural as possible and the interviews will highlight if you are or not. I also would avoid ever mentioning you thought "Swanwick was very dull and boring " but stating a preference for Approach/Tower will be heard if given with the right reasons. However knowing NATS whatever you say will have no bearing on where they post you so don't get hung up on a certain discipline and especially not a particular post. Look to the move away from home as an adventure with the most fabulous rewards, and if/when you get it go with a positive mind to enjoy it and get to where you want. I wasn't ever going to have a problem leaving home but met several on the course that did. We all bonded well and enjoyed Bournemouth and all its atributes to the full, and therefore I always recommend living near to the centre of town at least for the first part of the course just so you can all go out on the social in the evening to get a good bond in the group - it can certainly help get you all through the course.

I'm the sort of person that would say just apply and see what happens, if unsuccessful then go do something else for a few years and then have another go. Many controllers don't get in first time so I wouldn't let it worry you the possibility of failing first time round. If you are unsure about moving and living away then try moving away first, get a job a few towns away or go to Uni and see how you feel. I find that in NATS where ever you go you find people that you can mix with and form good friendships and that makes the move so much easier.

Its not easy and no-one here can give you a definate answer on what you need to do, but many will advise that if you get there its certainly a fantastic feeling and well worth it.

[Bern Oulli]

"A" level geography is a good one to have - not just for where places are but the syllabus used to include meteorology and climateology (does it still?), so two "ologies". Bargain.

[GT3]

Applied on my 18th Birthday (December) and started on the old course in October the next year, it was the first course I could start after leaving sixth form. Was given the job on the basis I took my A-Level exams and not the results.

Was my first application and it can be done. Just a case of convincing them that you are the right person.

[Gonzo]

GT3,

Yep, same here, only ever been to one interview (as the interviewee) in my life. Only job I've ever had, although I did have a paper round once. Does that count?

Neither did I have any 'options' (uni, job whatever) when I went through the selection process.

[Scuzi]

I also sent in my application on my 18th birthday and was offered the job regardless of my A-level results (Good job too, they were terrible!). I started a year later when I was 19 and am just about to do my final ACS2 summative today :uhoh:

I have no regrets about applying so early. You should put an application in, you've got nothing to lose.

[GT3]

Gonzo,

You call this a job???? Surely its a career ;)

[BEXIL160]

5Mb said: I also would avoid ever mentioning you thought "Swanwick was very dull and boring "

Good advice, gruntily given. It does get exciting sometimes.... at about 2 in morning...... as unproven geordies, in dazes could tell you.

Pass the bakewell

BEX:ok:

[Lock n' Load]

My qualifications when I applied were the same both times; 5 SCE Highers and a BA Honours degree.
Once you get through the paper sift, for which you need the bare minimum at least, I'm pretty sure it ceases to matter much. If you meet the bare minimums, you get a testing day, and if you pass the testing day you get an interview day. The ATCOs doing the interviews are a cross-section of NATS ATCOs, so some have degrees, many or even most don't, and quite a few are ex-ATSAs who much prefer common sense to a university education.
If you meet the requirements, how you perform on interview day is much more important than the bits of paper you have. I would add though that university was a great experience and I'm more than happy to have had a life before ATC!

[261A]

Thanks for the great replies.

As I said in my last post, I am not prepared to have a university education for many reasons which I don't want to go into.

But I will definetly be applying in March when I am 18, and I expect they will accept me.
I am a bit worried though as I have experienced NATS interviews before and it really shook me.
When I was in year 10 I applied for a work experience at Swanwick and they invited me to an interview (they interview all applicants) and the interview went well as I knew all their questions and got them correct and showed them my knowledge but I could just tell from the atmosphere that they were not impressed for some reason that still beats me to this day but I was NOT accepted for a work experience and this really knocked me and I am not going to let this happen in my ATCO interviews.

I will apply in March and see what happens from there it is the interviews that I need to brush up on.

I have written to the college with my questions.

[5milesbaby]

Ahh Bex, the joys of nights, looking forward to the parkin next time, may try and save you a bit but you know how it goes :}

[261A]

I heard somewhere on the forums that the college in Hurn is moving in 2008?

[surface wind]

261A

I applied for NATS when I was 17. Decided to go to University first. Worked the first year out (as part of the degree) at Short Bros, and hated it. Decided that Uni was not for me so joined NATS and never looked back.

Most of the ATCOs on my course were of various backgrounds, some with degrees, others with just GCSEs. The most important thing was that it didn't matter what qualification they had as to whether ot not they could make it as a controller.

IMHO it is much better to start training asap with no baggage whatsoever...i.e. huge debt from uni, wife kids etc as you need to give it 100%.

I personally would sacrifice the free accomadation, as the craic round Bournemouth with the other students on your course will be more memorable than any other time of your life!

I have been with NATS now 16 years and don't regret it for a moment. You will always get others slagging it off, but compared to the terms and conditions of service that my wife and others I know get, it is second to none.

Good luck:ok:

[Tweety]

Take head from what the other guys are saying as they have been around

[Bonza]

Hi,

Just thought I'd add a few comments. Hope they help. I completed college training last year and am now working at Swanwick as an Area controller. So the whole application, interview and college training process is still fresh in my mind.

NATS won't have any problem accepting you at 18. Going to university is certainly not required as far as the qualifications process is concerned, attitude is more important. They are looking for individuals who like working to rules (creative arty-people tend to come unstuck at the personality questionnaire/interview stage) and can think logically, but quickly. Knowledge of air traffic control is not necessary at the interview stage, they give you handouts and you just cram before the interview. It's also difficult to learn the basics of ATC unless you have access to a copy of MATS Part 1. They'll teach you all you need to know when you get to college.

One of the main reasons people fail at college is maturity. You'd be amazed at the immaturity of some students in their mid to late 20s. But as long as you're mature enough to take criticism without petulent outbursts, you'll be fine. Very few people breeze through the college courses, and only 1 of 2 individuals per course will waltz through unscathed. Be prepared to have knock backs along the way, but take the hits and learn from them. It'll make you a stronger person and more determined to succeed.

Anyway, good luck.

[261A]

Where can I find a copy of MATS1?

[261A]

MATS part 1

[Brian81]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP493PART1.PDF

Traaaaaaaa.:ok:

[261A]

Cheers

That what they want you to know before college??? :eek:

[Jerricho]

Hi 261a

Reference MATS Part 1, I wouldn't get all bent out of shape trying to study it before starting. If you're really keen it's nice to know some things from Section 1 like there are Approach, Area and Aerodrome controllers, that there are different types of airspace and different types of separation applied (vertical, lateral and longitudinal) and alike, but I can't see you being asked things like a definition for CAVOK or separation standards applied using VOR/DME/TACAN. But be careful, if you were to start "jargon dropping", talking about things like RAS/RIS or RVSM etc in an interview, be prepared to be asked to extrapolate a little...........chances are the interviewer doesn't know much about them either :E :E

[261A]

Along the same subject as my original post, I will be 18 in March and I will be applying with the minimum qualifications required.

I know that it doesn't make you any better than any other applicant whether you have a degree(s) or not because it is how you do in the aptitude tests (correct me if I am wrong) but do NATS pick up on how far you have taken your education and could they or do they hold this against you?

:ok:

[radar707]

261A,

So long as you meet the eligibility criteria and are successful at the aptitude tests and interviews then you will be offered a place at the college regardless of you age.

You may be asked some questions during interview to determine if they feel you are a "mature enough" 18 year old.

[261A]

Can I also ask - NATS site says

'have competed a period of post-GCSE study at higher level through to the
examination, for example, 2 A Levels/3 Highers, a GNVQ advanced level or
equivalent, or be in your final year of study'.

Does this mean that the A Levels or highers can be any grade just as you have completed them to the exam?

Cheers

[radar707]

You don't even need to pass the exams, just have studied through to the exam itself.

[speedbird2727]

I heard somewhere on the forums that the college in Hurn is moving in 2008?
Ive heard that too. Apparantly, its earmarked to be moved to where the Corporate Tech Centre is based at Whiteley, Hampshire (approx 2 miles from LACC, Swanwick).

Nice to see these posts. Im 18, at college, and have got my selection tests next month.

It's useful to see what is actually involved with the layout of the day, so thank-you to all who have provided information! ;)

[Dances with Boffins]

261A
If you still don't want to go Area, and don't want to be too far away from Surrey, maybe NATS isn't for you.
You are disqualifying yourself from 75% of NATS vacancies, and they will put you where they need you, which maybe isn't where you want to be.
If they even get a whiff of you wanting to quit if you don't get the posting you want [like some have recently] they will not invest the many thousands of pounds in your training that hiring you would commit them to. [I don't think that was very good English. I should have passed me A-Level...]
I'd put some effort into those A-Levels if I were you. NATS will still be there after you graduate and you may have matured sufficiently to accept that if you want to work in ATC you will need to go where the work is. Or you may decide that having a degree has opened up new avenues of employment that make NATS look less attractive.
The College is moving - at some point between 2008 and 2014. It is probably going to the vicinity of Swanwick. If you were to apply in March, you would be long gone from Hurn before any move happens.

[261A]

Dances with Boffins
I have changed my opinion very much so since I originally placed my thread here.
I don't mind where I get posted, whether area/aerodrome/approach or where such as Swanwick, West Drayton or elsewhere.
Also no hope of becoming an ATCO if I hate area as much as I used to and seeing as it is the top of the pay scale can't rule it out + 80% of the trainees get sent to Swanwick as far as I know so again, have to get used to the idea of being in area.
Thanks for your concern!

Sounds interesting about the college moving though, why was it placed next to Bournemouth Airport anyway? Not very accessible by public transport, hopefully if it is moved closer to Swanwick, it will be more accessible!