Night flying questions

[vancouv]

I think I know the answer to these, but thought I would ask for other views:

Scene 1 - you complete a flight and land at 19.25. Official night starts at 19.30. Due to being held while taxiing back to park, it is 19.35 before you are on blocks. Is this an illegal flight if you don't have a night rating as the flight doesn't end until you are on blocks, even though you are on the ground?

Scene 2 - you taxi to the pumps, refuel, and taxi back to park, with no intention of flying, after night, also with no night rating - is this illegal?

Thoughts, please.

[tmmorris]

Not a lawyer, but I seem to remember from the ANO that an aircraft is in flight from the moment it first moves forward under its own power for the purpose of taking off to the moment it comes to rest after landing. So in (1) you have presumably vacated the runway and stopped - the flight has therefore ended; in (2) the taxy from pumps to parking is not for the purpose of taking off so that is not a flight (I hope you wouldn't log it!)

Tim

[vancouv]

Interesting you mention logging the second option - no I wouldn't, but I have met people who do! I once taxied out to the hold and had a problem during my power checks, which ended with me taxiing back and not flying. After all the faffing about and waiting for clearance to enter the runway as that was the only way back it took about 25 minutes.

My instructor told me that I could log this, as the intention was to fly, but you can't log my second example as you never intended to fly. I didn't bother though.

[FlyingForFun]

Very interesting questions.

My interpretations would be similar to Tim's. Taxying to the pumps, no problem, since it's not a flight. But in the first scenario, I think that flight ends when you come to a stop for the last time, so it is still a flight while you are at the holding point. Therefore, I would guess it would count as night flying.

One thing I am pretty certain of, though, is that in both cases you must have your nav lights on, or inform ATC if you have a problem with your nav lights.

And, for anyone who hasn't done any night flying, a word of caution: don't try this on your own, even if it is legal! You will certainly get away with it if it's only 5 minutes after official night, and you will probably get away with even if it's pitch black outside, but you might find the visual illusions throw you. Last winter I took a student for his first night flight and we needed fuel first. The fuel pumps at our airfield are on the far side of the main apron. After fuelling, he taxied across the main apron, became completely disoriented, and couldn't find the taxy-way..... and this particular student has done almost all his flying at this airfield, and knew it very well.

FFF
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[Whopity]

What you must ask yourself is why is the rule there in the first place? Its to prevent people "flying" at night without the appropriate training.

Secondly, who would be interested if you are slightly outside the window? Most likely an insurance company when you run into something; they will use every opportunity to avoid paying.

You don't need a pilots licence or a driving licence to taxi an aeroplane day or night!

[S-Works]

do we really care? not wanting to start a war but why does it matter?

The taxi question is a moot point as you were not flying and as for five minutes after dark question then to be honest without a night rating you should not be cutting it so fine. if it were a real situation then knock five minutes off the log book time!

And as for logging taxi time, please people are you that desperate to log hours? I log my flight time from the GPS take off to landing, I dont consider taxiing around as flying time. The only person you cheat in the long run is yourself.

[Penguina]

Well, I wouldn't bother logging a taxi that didn't involve a flight either (one 10-minute 'drive' requested by a friend because it was too windy to fly but she wanted to at least be in an aeroplane with me springs to mind). However, I was taught to log brakes on - brakes off.

And I have to say, to me this makes sense. You're not actually flying during the taxi, but there's no doubt that you're needing some of the skills you would need if you were.

For example:

*R/T (in many cases more intense on the ground)

*keeping an eye on your engine and performing the pre-flight checks

*being responsible for the well-being of any pax

*getting yourself mentally organised

*being in the right place at the right time - not taxi-ing into anything (_much_ more of a danger at night, which is why you'd be daft to try it without the rating, IMO).

Some of this is probably more pertinent at a larger aerodrome with ATC service, but I still think it applies anywhere.

So while it doesn't matter that much to me and I've not been deliberately logging a few more minutes out of desperation for hours, I'm not about to go back and re-calculate my whole log book.

So there. :O

[dublinpilot]

Lets assume for a minute that VFR ends just as you land, and you're now taxing across the airfield to your fuel pumps or to your parking space. Lets also assume that this now becomes a night "flight" by virtue of the end of VFR having past.

To be legal at night, you need to be on either an IFR flight, or a Special VFR one. Lets assume you're in a CTZ, and that you have a night qualification/Instrument Rating. Would you really ask the ground controller to change your clearance to a special VFR/IFR clearance?

I imagine their response would be one of confusion, followed by them making it clear, you are being cleared to taxi, not to fly.

In practical terms, I can't imagine the CAA having any interest in this (unless of course you attempted to log it as night flying for the purpose of gaining a night qualification). So that just leaves an insurer querying it if you bump into something on the ground.

Would they be required to pay out if you were simply taxing to from a parking space, to the fuel pump? Since that would not be illegal, then surely they must be obliged to pay. So they can hardly refuse to pay when you're simply taxing after landing.

A technicality maybe, but in practice I can't imagine it causing too much difficulty.

dp

[Laundryman]

You could, I suppose wait at the end of the runway until next morning then taxi to park up.

[Whopity]

"And as for logging taxi time, please people are you that desperate to log hours? I log my flight time from the GPS take off to landing, I dont consider taxiing around as flying time."

Maybe not but both the ANO and ICAO Annex 1 do!

Flight time — aeroplanes. The total time from the moment an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
Note. — Flight time as here defined is synonymous with the term “block to block” time or “chock to chock” time in
general usage which is measured from the time an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until it finally stops at the end of the flight

Most people pay for it and if you are the PIC you carry the responsibility so you may as well log it.

[Cool_Hand]

I agree that you have to see why the rules are in place, so I tend not to have an issue with taxiing at twilight but to cut the flight so close to dark would be a safety issue. I even had to overnight in a city I hadn't planned on once as going to my original destination would have put me right on the edge of night flying so landed 40 minutes early and had to foot the bill of a hotel room.

With regards to logging taxiing time for a flight (not for fuel), yes log it, being a renter I pay for the aircraft from the point the engine is turned on to shut down. So I'm logging from the point it moves under it's own power to the point it comes to it's final stop. As was said above, you're still going through procedures, looking out and R/T, I'm still responsible for the aircraft all through this, they are still PIC responsibilities, and are all experience.

[PH-UKU]

Taxiing only ? Do you log it ? I do if I'm on floats as manoeuvring on the water is the trickiest bit and every minute of experience counts in the bigger picture !!

Now - another couple of night-flying questions (and I know I could go and look up LASORS but my brain is just too gubbed at the moment to wade through CAA yuckspeak .....)

Correct me if I am wrong, but there aren't there two types of qualification for a PPL ..

1- a night RATING - applicable to UK PPL, JAR-FCL PPL and UK BCPL
2- a night QUALIFICATION - applicable to UK PPL and UK BCPL

In practice is there any difference?

Does one type need instruction and one not ?

I also heard that if you are only flying solo and not taking passengers you didn't need a night RATING - is this true - and what about a night QUALIFICATION ?

sorry but brain now gone to azzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[vancouv]

My understanding (which may be wrong, so don't shoot me down if it is) is that it used to be a night qualification, but is now a rating uder JAR. You certainly need to do dual instruction, and it is something like 5 hours in total, including one hour dual cross-country, flying without cockpit lights, few other bits and pieces, and finally 5 solo circuits. I think what makes it a rating rather than a qualification is that there is no flight test - once you have done the necessary training you have the rating.

As for logging taxi time, I definitely do log it when I fly. As already mentioned, you are PIC and responsible for the aircraft, dismissing it as so trivial it isn't even worth logging sounds a tad irresponsible.

[S-Works]

Not question the logic of being responsible for the aircraft and at no stage did I say it was trivial.

I just said that I only log flying time not taxi time. And no one should be logging time taxiing to the pumps!

[Penguina]

PH-UKU:

I think it's the other way round, by the way. Used to be a national rating, now it's a 'qualification' under JAR? Never mind, anyway, not important... :zzz:

[tsimos]

Of Course you can taxi at night.
Night flying means just that.....airborne

[foxmoth]

bose-x,
I think your logging only airbourne time may even be illegal, as the book I think defines flight time to include taxi time for the purpose of flight and therefore should be included in what you log. Again, strictly speaking, if you taxi out to fly but then decide not to for any reason, this should be logged - but in practice that is going over the top. Anyone who logs taxi time when they are not intending flight is logging the wrong thing and could end up with problems if this were picked up if the Authorities look at their log book for any reason (i.e. checking for min. hours for a CPL, which is one of the few reasons anyone would be that hour hungry).

[vancouv]

Penguina - you're right, I did get rating and qualification the wrong way round!

Interesting that people have such different views about what is and isn't OK. I think block times are what constitute the flight, and if you had a prang while taxiing the CAA, and certainly the insurance company, will check to see if you are approriately licensed.