R/T question

[babyboeing400]

A bit confused over this little R/T thing..well here goes : Controller,"N8WS,what is your position?"

does the pilot places his/her callsign in front of the statement or after the statement in reply to the question?

[PA-28-180]

For me, it could go either way:
N8WS is currently.....
OR,
Currently 10NM.....N8WS. I've never had any complaints using either one.

[Malcolm G O Payne]

Sorry, but as an RT examiner of quite a few years I cannot see the point of using the word currently. You are either there or you are not. Apart from which it does not appear in either ICAO or UK
phraseology.

[vancouv]

Agree with the non-use of currently. I was taught to put my callsign at the end if I was replying to ATC, but at the beginning if I was initiating the call.

[Hour Builder]

Whats the problem with using the word currently though? When Malcolm G O Payne said you are either there are you aren't doesnt really make sence to me, as you are constantly moving. It seems logical to say I am currently over a position, because by the time you've finished saying "exactly" where you are/were, you are no longer there. Think Malcolm G O Payne is being a little too picky, which is probably good as he is an examiner and to teach/examiner to the correct standard, but can't for one second see it ever being a problem when talking to a ATSU.

Agree though, that when giving a responce like that, callsign should follow your answer.

HB

[FlyingForFun]

Agree that callsign should come at the end.

CAP413 gives a very definite way of reporting your position, which in my experience is never actually used. (I once heard of a pilot who, just to see what happened, gave a position report exactly as per CAP413, and the controller didn't understand and asked him to repeat it.) However, what's relevant here is that the position report should contain the position you are reporting, and the time you were there. So if you are there now, as opposed to a minute ago, shouldn't that be in the position report???

FFF
---------------

[Monocock]

PA-28-180

I too use "currently" and have yet to receive comment about it. I consider the level of nitpicking that your comment has generated perfectly representative of the type of bandwidth-wasting hair-splitting that these forums sometimes slip into.

C'mon guys, within 2 posts this thread went off track.

What about the word "approximately"? Or "abeam"? We could discuss the minutii for hours but is it really worth it?

[Red Four]

MGO Payne has it spot on. 'Currently' is a waste of valuable RT time.
Even more of a waste are:
'Currently Approaching'
'Currently Approaching Aprroximately'
'Currently Approaching approximately...Standby'

Hear them all fairly regularly unfortunately.

[Whopity]

The controller uses the aircraft callsign prior to the message because he is talking to a number of aircraft; therefore he nominates which aircraft he is talking to.

When the aircraft replies, there is only one controller so the answer is given first, followed by the callsign.

If the pilot was initiating the message his callsign would go before the message, so that the controller would know which aircraft was talking to him.

see CAP413 Continuation of Communication.

"N8WS,what is your position?" is Incorrect RT; it should be: N8WS Report your position.

Answer (Position- relative to something the controller will understand) N8WS

Words such a "Currently" and "Copied" are not standard phraseology and are examples of poor RT discipline.

[BEagle]

Hmm, monocock, I tend to agree.

"G-CD, report your position!

"Currently approaching Little Piddle-on-the-Gusset, G-CD"

Simple and unambiguous.

But what you'd probably hear would be:

"Err, G-CD is err, coorentleye on the err, 275 radial from the err, Alfa Bravo Tango at err, 23 die emm eye, err, Sir. Over"

All spoken in a sort of whining nasal John Major-ish voice with hint of Brummie....

As for those who make such a song and dance over someone calling "Finals" instead of "Final"....:rolleyes:

[DubTrub]

As for those who make such a song and dance over someone calling "Finals" instead of "Final"....
...or even "On Final" :yuk:

[englishal]

Frankly who gives a t*ss if RT phrasology is EXACTLY in accordance with CAP413? So long as its clear, concise, and unambiguous, then who cares.

In my book either:

"G-CD is 10 miles west of Boscombe Down one thousand fife hundred"

or

"10 miles to the west of Boscombe Down, one thousand fife hundred G-CD"

is ok.

What is a load of rubbish though would be:

"We are, er, 10 miles west of, er, Boscombe Down at one thousand five hundred feet, QNH 1013, er, heading 243 degrees, estimate little-piddle-on the-gusset at three five, next is Wells, where we will be climbing to two thousand five hundred and turning southbound."......(which you do often hear....normally in a posh voice)

[Whopity]

"Frankly who gives a t*ss if RT phrasology is EXACTLY in accordance with CAP413? So long as its clear, concise, and unambiguous, then who cares."

The reason CAP 413 is there, is to provide pilots with standardised; clear, concise and unambiguous phrases. Its also there so that pilots whose mother tongue is not English can learn and understand those phrases.

Because we speak English and can cope with a wide range of non standard phraseology does not help the foreign pilot.

Unfortunately, before long there is going to be a major aircraft accident because some pilots don't give a t*ss. Numerous working groups have predicted this and are continually raising issues with current RT standards.

As the principal English speaking nation we should set an example by doing it by the book. 90% of RT is learned by copying others.

If an ATCO gets it wrong he is suspended. If a pilot gets it wrong he flies again the same day!

[englishal]

I agree that standard phrases like "Hold Short", "Line up and wait", "cleared to......" etc. are very important, but whether a pilot says his/ her call sign at the start or end of a transmission is unlikely to cause a major accident. That was my point which I didn't put across very well.....

[dublinpilot]

If an ATCO gets it wrong he is suspended.

That is most certainly untrue. If an ATCO was suspended for not following CAP413 exactly, there wouldn't be any ATCO's left.

In some cases CAP413 needs to be rewritten to cope with the real world.

I've just taken a look at CAP413 in relation to position reports, and I have never heard a position report being made using the standard 'correct' phrasology. I can certainly understand why the controllor was confused when given the 'correct' reply, in the case FFF over heard.

If a controllor is confused by a 'by the book' reply, what chance have foreign pilots who's first language is not English?

A little common sense needs to prevail too.

dp

[Sans Anoraque]

As the principal English speaking nation Are we now?

[funfly]

Seen on pprune somewhere else...

Trainee pilot: "final 20"
ATC: "wind 360 12 knotts, no need to confirm"
Pilot; "360 12 knotts, no need to confirm"

Dhuuuuuu

[captain cumulonimbus]

The most i ever say to a wind check on final is "copied",i never read it back.

Agree with everyone bout callsign coming last if replying and first if initiating.eg: twr:P4-MMG cleared takeoff" to which you reply :Cleared takeoff P4-MMG.but as you switch to radar you say:"Radar good day,this is P4-MMG climbing etc..."

[pulse1]

"Radar good day,this is P4-MMG climbing etc..."

At one of my 2 yearly flights with an instructor I was told off for saying any more than "G xxxx" when switching to radar. After all, they know where I'm going and have agreed my clearance. Usually, all they say in reply is "Report leaving the zone" unless there is conflicting traffic.

I know you professional IFR types usually say more because I hear you but, if my instructor was right, your longer response is confusing for us VFR only types. Presumably the difference is that VFR flights are usually cleared "not above" and IFR traffic is cleared to an altitude/FL?

I was also taught never to repeat wind checks on final. Just say "Cleared to land, G xxxx"

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The most i ever say to a wind check on final is "copied" The other day my response, a few seconds later, was "please say again surface wind"; I believed what I was told the second time. I do find it hard to get the speed right over the fence with ten knots of gusting - must need more practice ...

[RAC/OPS]

babyboeing400, as most of the respondents seem to think that how it is done in the UK must surely be a world wide standard (and if not it jolly well should be!), I'd offer the advice of checking with the CAAS. As an ATCO who has worked in the UK and Australia I'd say it doesn't make a great deal of difference at my end of the mic - UK prefers it at the end and Aus at the beginning. As long as you say something vaguely coherent as well as your callsign you shouldn't go too far wrong;)

[spekesoftly]

"Currently approaching Little Piddle-on-the-Gusset, G-CD"

Simple and unambiguous.

Sorry BEags, but I totally disagree, on several counts.

Firstly, what the fcuk does approaching mean? Three, Five, Ten, Fifteen, Twenty miles to run? And from which direction - N/W/S/E?

Now let's turn this around for a moment, with ATC giving Traffic Info, based on pilot reports, to other aircraft for example. Which would you, as a pilot, find more useful?:-

"G-CD, traffic is a PA28 currently approaching XXX ..........."

OR

"G-CD, traffic is a PA28 five (miles) south of XXX .......... "

Now I'm not too fussed about the five miles being hyper-accurate, but the 2nd example does give ATC, and other Airspace users, a far better picture.

Imagine a busy VFR sunny week-end. During the course of several hours, many dozens of light aircraft will make position reports. If they all include the totally meaningless "Currently Approaching", that can add up to a heck of a lot of wasted words.

Please guys, R/T time is a very precious commodity - Say Something Useful!

[BEagle]

If it's a VFR flight at 90 kts, it'd mean not far from Little Piddle-on-the-Gusset, fairly obviously. Close enough for the purposes of the Flying Prevention Branch in any case.

I'm getting increasingly hacked off with all the ATC blah these days. On a nice day like today, I wouldn't talk to anyone unless I had to. All the "You must use LARS, squawk 7000C etc" NATS propaganda you can stuff.

"Squawking 7000, to en-route, good day!"

[spekesoftly]

On a nice day like today, I wouldn't talk to anyone unless I had to ..........

No problem with that, and I wish you a peaceful and enjoyable flight. But on those occasions when it is necessary to talk to ATC, it's just as easy to replace superflous generalisations with similarly brief specifics. It often negates the requirement for further R/T exchanges, and reduces the R/T garbage you quite rightly abhor.