Senate Committee on Commerce , Science and Aviation

[Airmike767]

The US Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Aviation will meet on Thursday to consider amending the FAA age 60 rule. Under consideration is legislation which would change the current FAA rule to the newly adopted ICAO retirement age of 65 with the restriction of Part 121 operations and only one over age sixty crewmember. ALPA National has already started a blitz to contact Senators on the committee.......maybe it is time to change once and for all!

[Airmike767]

Today by a majority vote the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation has amended the bill S.65: A bill to increase airline pilot retirement age to reflect social security age to the following: Pilots will be allowed to work until their 65th birthday providing it is a crew served operation and that the other pilot be under 60. Further that the over 60 pilot must take two FAA medicals per year and one with EKG, further that the National Transportation Safety Board evaluate the new rule two years after enactment. The enactment is to be within 30 days of activation of the ICAO revision of its retirement guidence of age 65. This is anticipated to be November 2006.

The bill has been marked for presentation on the Senate Floor as amended for final vote.

[Loose rivets]

Mmmm.......I am allowed to work here, any chace of an age 70 rule?:uhoh:

[Raas767]

Great news for U.S. pilots????

Do I need to remind anybody here that there are in excess of 5000 main line pilots on furlough in the United States who are only returning to work due to attrition? In addition, the age 60 rule has been challenged for decades and the FAA, NASA and other authorities have maintained that health deteriorates at an increased rate after that age. Although it happens at different rates for different people some are insidious and difficult to test for, therefore age 60 is a good bench mark. Just because the Europeans changed the rule doesn't make it the right thing to do.
I guarantee that APA, SWAPO, Teamsters and ALPA will be throtteling up to full power to try and defeat this bill before it becomes law.

[Airmike767]

RAS767,

I think you might not have availed yourself of the data that has been published on the alleged safety issue with over sixty pilots.

Every medical organization has verified there is no detectable health issue that is exposed by your age. SWAPA firmly supports age 65. APA says they are opposed as is ALPA.

ALPA conducted a "Poll" this year on extending the age and came up with a slight majority against....but only after directing selective telephone polling to skew the numbers against.

With the change in ICAO, the USA will have to allow Foreign pilots to fly as Captain into the country. Presently foreign carriers are allowed to fly over 60 age co-pilots into the USA.

This legislation levels the playing field.....no worry to those who presently fly in Europe as it is firmly guarded by "legal to live and work in the EU"

The 5000 furloughed pilots are mostly either rehired, recalled or in some cases have left the profession. The LCCs and Express Airlines in the USA have been hiring for a couple of years and now hire pilots with time down in the 500 range!

Continental Airlines has been hiring 60 per month all this year and plans to continue for the next year at least.

An impending Captain shortage is quickly approaching particuliarly with the number of DEC Captains required for India and China not to mention Ryan and Easy.

So what is the real issue here....

Regards
Airmike767

[GlueBall]

Raas767: May you make captain soon and be happy. ...And when you turn 60 be sure to vacate your seat for a wannabe. :ooh:

[Raas767]

Some of the guys that I sit next to on long flights are questionable at 59 much less at 65!
There is obviously a lot of pressure out there now to increase the retirement age due to decimated defined benefit plans at some of the larger cariers. There is also quite a few that can't retire because they posses poor decision making skills in regards to their finances and the amount of woman they marry over their careers.
Whatever. I guess the fat lady is finally singing.
Personally, I can't imagine why anyone would want to fly to 65 in the current environment. Whatever happened to playing golf?

[Airmike767]

The response by the unions is mixed!

SWAPA has endorsed the legislation.

ALPA continues opposition though many ALPA members in Bankrupt carriers see their opposition as counter to their best interests.

APA's President claims opposition but the rank and file members I know all state it is a divided question.

The recently passed pension reform bill has a protection amended in to give age sixty retired pilots the benifit of pension rates as if they were 65. This will cost lots of money.........which with the PBGC already in near default is likely to move toward legislative support for passage of the bill.

Congress is adjourned for two weeks so the subject is tabled for now.

Airmike767

[Van Pelt338]

Since most US pilots have lost their pensions or they have never had the "opportunity" to work for a major, of have too many ex-wives/children to support and the fact that we cannot receive our Social Security $$ until 67ish, I for one am in favor of increasing the age. Oh my, pilots drop dead past 60. Guess so, due to the boredom of being sent home at age 60. Do our Doctors get sent home at 60? Nope, they continue to do mayor surgeries every day! Let's see. A pilot over 60 can fly GV's etc and be responsible for the lives of big businessmen etc. Yep, they sure have lost their brains when they turn 60. Cannot function and are only capable of handling a walker. There seems to be some pretty callous folks out there who want to throw us "old guys" out to pasture just so they can get their turn in the Capt. seat. Whatever happened to the word respect?
Cheers

[Fly3]

I have spoken with the guy who headed the medical committee for ICAO looking into and recommending the new rules and can confirm that it will be the ICAO rule in November 2006. Any member state can apply for exemption from the rule but must state their reasons in clear terms. They cannot however prevent other member states from flying in their airspace using pilots above 60 as is the case with France I believe right now.

[Faire d'income]

This is hardly going to improve safety is it?

This limit is not there to improve commmand prospects or to sentence some of the above posters to early boredom. It is just yet another safety margin being rolled back.

Our industry is facing it's greatest ever threat IMHO. Safety seems to have removed from it's rightful place at the top of any pilot's, operator's or regulator's priority list. They keep chipping away at the boundaries.

In a few years I fear it will not be a priority at all in many places.

[Raas767]

I agree 100% that an increase in the retirement age will be a detriment to safety. I noticed in my own father a definite decrease in night vision and coordination after he turned 60 and, as stated previously, age affects people in different ways and that is why maintaining the age 60 rule is a good compromise.
On another note. If it is one thing the Americans hate its delegating authority to the U.N. regarding just about anything. You are going to hear a lot of talk in the senate about "outsourcing" air safety to the ICAO and how it will be a detriment to security, safety and any thing else they can come up with. I'm pretty confident that it will be defeated by senate vote.

[Faire d'income]

I-Ford you are a genius. The only problem is though where do you draw the line? 95 year old pilots?

[Flying Guy]

Easy - When the pilot cannot pass the physical or the 6 month check.

[faheel]

THe only guys against it are the people who have not got commands yet and want the soon to be 60 people out so they can have their seat.
That is understandable but shortsighted, they seem to forget that they too will then be able to extend their career by another 5 years.

An airline pilots job is not what it used to be I am afraid to say, terms,conditions,benefits,pay etc are being eroded day by day and the only way to make them up is to work longer.

The age 60 rule was arbitrarily applied in the fifties when the a/c were noisier, work place more dangerous and medical standards and knowledge not what they are today..
People are now living longer due to advances in medicine and lifestyle, the age 60 rule is out of step with the world, it needs to change and it will, by this time next year 65 WILL be the new benchmark.

[wifi]

Commerce Committee Approves Legislation to Amend the Age Restriction for Pilots
Senate.gov ^ | November 14, 2005? | Sen. Ted Stevens

Posted on 11/18/2005 1:35:09 PM PST by Paleo Conservative

Washington, D.C. – The U.S. Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee today approved a substitute amendment offered by Senator Burns to S. 65, a bill to amend age restrictions for pilots, by voice vote. The bill was introduced by Senator James Inhofe (R-Okla.).

Since 1960, federal regulations have specified that individuals age 60 and older may not serve as airline pilots on any commercial flights. The European Joint Aviation Authority (JAA) permits airline pilots to fly up to age 65, but also requires that another pilot on the flight be age 60 or younger. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) has proposed adopting a worldwide standard based on the JAA standard.

The Burns substitute directs the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) Secretary to adopt the ICAO standard or recommended practice within 30 days after the ICAO acts on the matter. ICAO is scheduled to consider the measure in November 2006. The DOT is only authorized to adopt the new modification if it is consistent with the previously agreed upon Air Navigation Commission directive which allows commercial carrier pilots-in-command to fly up to their 65th birthday, if the co-pilot is 60 years old or younger.

As in the underlying bill, the Burns substitute allows pilots, who have previously been terminated or had a cessation of employment at a commercial air carrier because of the Age 60 restriction, to seek re-employment at a commercial air carrier. However, pilots cannot file suit to gain re-employment and cannot file suit to reclaim seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in commercial operations.

The substitute requires the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) to submit a report to both Senate and House authorizing committees of jurisdiction concerning the effects, if any, the age modification change has on aviation safety.

The bill now proceeds to the full Senate for its consideration.

[barit1]

Raas767
You are basing your judgement on anecdotal evidence. No one is suggesting that all pilots remain fully competent or medically fit after 60 (or after 40, for that matter...)

Revised rules are simply that calendar age ALONE should not be the criterion to end one's career.

[Jetdriver727]

This is crazy...If UAL and AMR and the rest of our friends out there didnt go ti^%s up this would never have seen the light of day. I agree there are some great 60+ pilots out there and there are some scary 20+ pilots out there..the difrence is that the 60 pilots have no reason to be that bad that late in there career...the 20's still are learning (at a slave wage I might add). I am not a RJ driver or any of that but I do feel for them. They are working on there first wife (not there 5th flight attendandt). They also dont have the three houses and the 4 car payments and the boat and the plane. YOU built this lifestyle...YOU have to live with the bed that you made....Just one humble pilots opinion...:)

[Faire d'income]

THe only guys against it are the people who have not got commands yet and want the soon to be 60 people out so they can have their seat.

I have my command thank you very much and have no intention testing the advances of medical science by flying 900 hours a year until I am 65.

The facts are more people die suddenly in the 60-65 age group than the 55-60 age group. Throw in the small matter of the very stressful day we all experience occassionally and that cancels out any benefit gained from our frequent medicals.

No matter which vested interest study you wave about the odds of an incapacition are increased. Therefore safety is reduced.

[ZQA297/30]

Testing 900 hrs to age 65???

Rumour has it that certain LCCs burn their pilots out in <5 years @900 hrs.

No need to wait for 65.;)


BTW, why is it that every time over 60 comes up, someone has to start bleating about several ex-wives, and mortgages, plus boats.

That may be the norm in the US,-and somewhat I doubt it is true even there- but the rest of the world is quite happy with a much less excessive life style.
It is a cliche like "overpaid bus drivers" that is threadbare by now.

[Ct.Yankee]

Raas 767;
I too had a Dad that passed 60 and was FORCED to retire. In 1979 when I was in A300 school, his old buddies that were now our Ck.Armn.
asked me to bring him into the Simulator. Guess what?,the sixty-nine year old f--t flew the sim. that he had never been in better than us twenty/thirty somethings.
OBTH I waited 16yrs. 11 months to make Captain at the Wings of Man and don't blame a single pilot senior me for the wait!
At least the WW2 and 50's guys got their retirement.
I just want to earn it, and I love my career!

[Ignition Override]

JetDriver 727: I'm not gifted when it comes to higher mathematics or finance, as will become quite clear-not even enlightened.

Who can afford more than one home? Keeping ONE will be quite challenging for the majority of pilots whose salaries are now cut by 30-50%.

Unless someone paid off a loan over many years (or possibly selling at a profit during a rare, hot market) and can rent it out at a price that will pay for the property taxes etc, then it is doubtful that more than a very small fraction have more than one home.

Just curious, but how large is the pay cut now taken by airline bankruptcy attorneys :E and judges? As for the attorneys, is the pain not to be shared?

[Raas767]

Ct. Yankee.

I have flown with plenty of guys in the sim. over 60 that were ex Branif pilots trying to make ends meet after that airline took a dump. They were all great guys and flew well, but it's different being a sim. pilot under a non stress environment than being exposed to all the stressors that is line flying, many of witch we don't even think about until we get older.
I have been relatively lucky so far, only one furlough, no ex wife with an intact A fund and if everything works out I can probably walk at 55.
That, of course, is not the point. The point is that any legislation proposed that decreases the margin of safety should be opposed.

[Jetdriver727]

I guess that my math has confused some people on this posting..Here it is- when a MD-11 Driver at DAL was making North of $250 ph and a 74 Driver at UAL was making from $200-350 ph the math works for me..you CAN afford more than TWO houses anf three cars and a boat plus a plane. Since you only have to work 20-30 hours a month at that rate to pay for everything..and since there was a 70-75 hour guarentee..I think that most people (and pilots) can do that math..By the was these are not assumptions..I know many people in this EXACT situation. I also have my degree in Economics..So I know the fincances work...:O

[Raas767]

I Ford.

Interesting reading. I'm curious, however. What makes the Secretariats opinion more valid than the FAA's Aeromedical devision? Both, I'm sure, gather information from professionals within the aeromedical field yet they come to seperate conclusions. Since there are obvious disagreements between member states I still maintain that the age 60 limit should stand. Besides who wants to go through all the crap Argentina proposes to maintain a medical past 60?

[CaptW5]

Some more interesting reading here, from a position paper of the Aerospace Medical Association:

http://www.age60rule.com/docs/2004_ASMA_Position.pdf

[joetommy]

If you look at the major accidents in the U.S. over the last ten years. The captains average age was 53.7 years old. Because of that I think the max age for the left seat should be 50.

[RAT 5]

This has nothing to do with the 60 rule, per se, but:

I approve of people flying until proved incapable or too old: 65. (I don't want to enter the debate of why people would want to fly over 65.)

However, consider the case where the 60 year old leaves an operator from a B747-400, B777, A340, B738 etc. He's spent his life in & out of major ILS airports. He wishes to keep flying, for whatever reason. and moves over to an island-hopper piston/turbo-prop, unpressurised and basically VFR. Non-precision, or visual approaches into marginal fields. Is this really a good idea for the pax? Skills are applicable to specifics, and I'm not sure all pilot skills are applicable to all enviroments.

We hear enough of it in the other direction; where turbo-prop pilots and Biz-jet jockeys are not up to the airline world. Well how about considering the reverse? The 65 rule would need to have some restrictions, and not just an under 60 F/O. That could be a 250 hour raw green horn. Hardly a balance for a grumpy old f#%t on a Sh&*y night, who thinks he is a relative of Pontius.