PVR from RAF IOT

[40k-ft AMSL]

I've been told that as long as you go for 28 days in IOT, you're then allowed to quit if it's not for you!

Can anyone confirm this?? :confused:

I know you've got to be 100% before committing but this is a chance in a life time and to be unsure I think is only natural, everyone has doubts at some stage...

Thanks, 40k

[Melchett01]

Not sure about the 28-day thing, think you can VW at any time during training, although I'm pretty sure the DS will spend a good couple of weeks trying to talk you out of it. Had an admin ex-ranker on my course back in the 90s who lasted something like 3 days before she decided the lack of 3 hour tea breaks and having to do phys wasn't for her and left to go back to her old job moving paperclips from one side of the desk to the other.

Yes it is a chance in a lifetime, but I'd make pretty sure you want it before you start. It's hard enough work to get a place at Cranditz ...... but that's the easy bit! Suggest you have a good hard think about exactly what it is you want out of the RAF before you put yourself through months of misery at Cranditz - if you aren't totally sure / committed you'll hate every minute of it.

[40k-ft AMSL]

:ugh: Believe me I've done nothing but think it over since I heard the news! The RAF kept bumping me back review board after review board so I accepted that I would probably not get into the RAF.... came as a shock!

Would you believe, they lost the offer letter somewhere so I haven't had it for 3 weeks, now I've only got 24hrs to decide after gearing myself up for commercial life! Can't believe the choice is so hard (but then that might be telling me something!).

Thanks for your thoughts, 40k :cool:

[PerArdua]

Gentleman (ex Sgt) on IOT course next to mine got promoted to CT while he was there, worked out his pension as a Chief would be more than at his 38/16 point as an Occifer so he quit (VW) and went back to the ranks at Champagne Thursday... Brave move, obviously influenced by the money but shows it is possible right up to the Grad Parade.

PA

[40k-ft AMSL]

And VW means? :\

[RileyDove]

Voluntarily withdraw ?Only guessing ! Maybe the Sergeant thought he would get more respect as a CT !

[40k-ft AMSL]

Ok so that was a dense question! :O

Anyone know the specifics of it because pressumably you can't jump ship once you've reached a specific part of training!?!

[airborne_artist]

Anyone know the specifics of it because pressumably you can't jump ship once you've reached a specific part of training!?!

Vol withdrawal up to wings, in the RN, then 5 years return of service after award of wings, but doubtless it's changed, and different in the RAF.

[Roadster280]

If you don't do it, you will spend the rest of your life wondering what it would have been like. It's a chance in a lifetime. Go for it. You can always decide that it isnt for you after starting. But you cant change your mind if you dont go. Good Luck!

As for Sgt, I severely doubt that he would have lost money on pension, because his years of service would still count to his orificer pension. Additionally, as a Pilot Officer or Fg Off, he would still get his CT pay until his career caught up again with the CT pay rate. Seems like a dumb-ass (if brave) move to me. If he was a FS, then maybe I could understand, so close to WO, but Sgt-CT ? Nah.

[40k-ft AMSL]

If you don't do it, you will spend the rest of your life wondering what it would have been like. It's a chance in a lifetime. Go for it. You can always decide that it isnt for you after starting. But you cant change your mind if you dont go. Good Luck!
Priceless words of wisdom!

Just received the paperwork for it all! Don't understand what's holding me back! Anyone else had the same experience or know what it could be!?

This will probably be my last post on the subject or I'll just come across as another moaner! Feel free to discuss the psychology of committment for any others with doubts!

Thanks to all who replied, 40k

[Twonston Pickle]

The answer is: Yes, you must remain in training for 28 days at RTS, RAF Halton, and IOT, RAF Cranwell. The rationale is that those who are home-sick will get over it in approx 14-21 days, so making them stay 28 might lessen the drop-out rate. Personally, I think that you won't know whether the job is for you or not until you have actually done the job, not just IOT and branch training.

[speeddial]

You have been given what others have spent years trying to get and never got. Until you are there you will never know what you've been given.

It is something you'll never experience anywhere else or at any other point in your life. You will learn leadership and life skills that you never knew existed. You will make friends that will last a lifetime.

The worst you can do is stay for a few weeks and leave putting a gap of a few weeks on your CV.

There are litterally hundreds who'd do anything to swap places with you.

[PerArdua]

Roadster280
From what I remember (alcohol clouds the events) he couldn't accept his promotion to CT unless he VW'd from IOT, sort of a conditional thing so he would have been on Sgts pay as a Fg Off on leaving, and as this was Pre 05 Pension I don't think all his previous service counted, just some of it.

PA

[Aeronut]

Sure it is hard work, HOWEVER, it's never as bad as anyone telling you about makes out, once you get stuck in. It also has a lot of highs, is a very sociable place and you will make some decent mates, I almost guarantee it!

Is a few months going to make that much difference in "the commercial world"?

Give it a go and at least know what decision you are making.

[Time Bandit]

No you certainly don't have to stay 28 days. Although you will be on the books (and be paid) for months afterwards you will be out of the front gates and your PVR will be accepted a few days from your last interview at DIOT and the world's your oyster.

If the head shed see that you really don't want to be a part of the service, your reason to leave is sound and thought through they will let you go quickly, and possibly even quietly express thier support for you.

But unless you have been soured by previous forces experience or have given it a lot of thought there's really no reason why you shouldn't give it a pop for 28 days at least if you've been accepted.

There are plenty of people who would give their right arm to be going to Cranwell like you, but at the end of the day if you do decide to leave it's your future that is the most important thing, not how lucky you are to have got through OASC.

I would suggest joining the Reserves before taking up a Commission, then you would be better positioned to make the decision of whether today's armed forces are for you. But given the short time scale this won't be possible for you!

All the best whatever you decide.

[Aerospace101]

Why are there so many people handing back Uni Bursaries, quiting IOT, and PVR'ing??

[Neeps]

What a shame you only have 24 hours to decide! Being put on a couple of review boards seem to be the norm for the majority of candidates at the minute.

People are right in saying that there are a lot of people who would want to be in your position and be holding a potential commission. You're the one who got the slot though, so don't go worrying about the fact that you may be taking up someones elses chance!

Before applying to the RAF you must have thought long and hard about what you wanted in a career. From your posts I assume you wanted a career as a pilot with commercial as your second choice.

Try to think back to what made you apply to the RAF and why you chose it over the commercial side of things. Has anything changed?

How did you feel when you got put on a review board? How did you feel when you accepted that you may only have the commercial path to be a pilot?

Ask yourself those questions and if you remember why you applied to the RAF in the first place then it may help.

As the chaps here have said, you can PVR from IOT so you are not sealed and binded to your decision if you feel like you've made a mistake.

As Time Bandit said, maybe you would consider going into the reserves?

[Time Bandit]

Bursary, wot bursary! :}

[Neeps]

Why are there so many people handing back Uni Bursaries, quiting IOT, and PVR'ing??The only explanation I can think of is that they did not fully appreciate what they were getting themselves into.

I didn't realise that there were many people doing this however?

[Aerospace101]

they did not fully appreciate what they were getting themselves into

So why werent they weeded out at OASC?

It seems alot of my friends have been turned down at OASC, many of whom are of a high callibre, but lose their places to people who eventually give up a bursary, quit during IOT or PVR and give back farless service.

[Neeps]

So why werent they weeded out at OASC?Being a candidate, I cannot answer that question. However, you cannot expect you know a persons full character and ambition within a 3 day selection course. They do a very good job at asessing as it is and the majority of people selected go onto IOT.


It seems alot of my friends have been turned down at OASC, many of whom are of a high callibre, but lose their places to people who eventually give up a bursary, quit during IOT or PVR and give back farless service.


To be honest if they were of a high callibre then surely they would have been selected? The recruiting situation is not as bad as some make out. You'll never know for certain if someone took a place that one of your mates could have had and then gave it up. The only thing they can do is try again in a year and try to work from their debrief on areas they can improve for next time.

[VigilantPilot]

I would have thought everyone reaching OASC would have thought long and hard about whether they wanted to hold a commission or not before they got to that stage! Those that PVR during IOT must have just paid lip service at OASC interview. Its not as if anyone should be under any illusion as to what they are doing - selection takes long enough! :confused:

[speeddial]

A friend of mine many moons ago sent one of his Sgts to OASC who within 20 minutes knew it wasn't for him, played along and gracefully gave himself a good exit making it clear to all he was happy being where he was during the interview...

Q. So tell me which newspaper you read?
A. (In a Brummy accent) Oh that'd be The Times Sir

Q. And can you tell me who their politcal editor is?
A. Oh they don't have one Sir

Q. Are you sure, which Times do you read?
A. The Angling Times Sir

[40k-ft AMSL]

;) Ok guys, I'm going to give it a whirl! What's the worst that could happen!

You've all given some great advice and it's much appreciated! My join date is Feb 19th so I'd better get running! :ok:

Will let everyone know how it goes in case there are others that are feeling the same way I have been!

Thanks again, 40k :cool:

[JessTheDog]

You can VW during IOT, and during branch training until entering productive service. I don't recall any IOT VWs from my stint, but I know of the occasional branch change that succeeded and many more that failed and resulted in a return to civvy street.

[rej]

Back in 1987 I was a cadet on a PIOT (pre-initial officer trg). Twenty-four of us turned up on day one. When we woke up on day 2 after a good night's sleep, the number on roll was twenty-three.

Obviously the poor soul decided that he could not cope with RAF beds for the remainder of his service..... or maybe his commitment was not really there.

[SpotterFC]

Similar number on my "boots" course in 1990, reduced by one on day 2 after the unfortunate individual had several too many and barfed all over his room in No2 Mess - last seen dragging his mattress to Barrack Stores with his cheque book and Train Ticket!!

[Red Line Entry]

On my IOT we started out one short on the Sunday night and went up to full strngth the following evening.

Turns out that as the Monday was a bank holiday, he'd assumed that the date in the paperwork was a mistake - surely the RAF wouldn't work on a public holiday!

Ah, bless.....

[buoy15]

40k ------- W*nker

If you got to IOT in the first place why would you want to PVR - -------W*nker

Go and work in a bank or supermarket or something

Don't waste our time

Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!

Regards B15

[VigilantPilot]

Harsh words. I can see your point though, even though I wouldnt quite put it like that. I would be disappointed that someone would waste peoples time and tax payers money if they weren't committed 100% from the word go. I know there are a few apathetic/disenchanted people eventually, but I would have thought a youngster would be keen about being a part of the RAF. Hardly inspires confidence that he will make the front line - theres tougher times and lots of hard work past selection!

[SmilingKnifed]

I see nothing wrong with getting a little information and advice from those who've been there and done it, rather than relying purely on the recruitment propoganda.

As for Buoy's comments, at least now the guy's going to Cranwell he'll see that not everyone in the RAF has such a lack of manners.:mad:

[BEagle]

When a bunch of us in our uncomfortable suits with what we thought were adequate haircuts all turned up to meet the nominated Kings Cross to Grantham train in 1968, I shared a compartment with a fellow aspirant Flight Cadet whose father was a pongo colonel.

24 hours later he was seen heading back south again with his suitcase - with just the souvenir of one of Slasher's haircuts to show for his time at Sleaford Tech..... He hadn't even unpacked fully - and 'crowing' hadn't even started.

Still, the guys in his hut had an extra bed. But fewer of them to bull the place up. Such were the joys of the South Brixk Lines...

[Gainesy]

We had one big girl's blouse jack it in at about 7pm on the first day. Long day out for a haircut.

[farmer113]

40ft,

good your a bit worried, but when you go enjoy it. loads of people got wound up and created loads of self induced stress. avoid these people. also get fit now so you'll enjoy the phys stuff instead of being beasted by the pti's.

just enjoy it, and there will be times where you'll think this is sh*t, but its only a 6 month attendance course, then you've got a job for 16 years.

as for the guys slagging you off, how many people really know what its like until they got there?

good luck and hope to see you around.
farmer

[40k-ft AMSL]

1) B15: harsh indeed! :mad: If it weren't for the RAF messing me about I wouldn't have had to wait for so long and end up half completing my ATPL! One of the main reasons for IOT is to sift the good'uns from the bad'uns! What harm is done by trying!?

2) I got a place as pilot! And god dammit I'm not going to deny myself the chance! I just have committment issues, my girlfriend will tell you!!

3) I'll only make it to the front line if I'm committed, will I not!? If I don't like it I'll be out before I start flying believe me! So don't you worry about the tax payer's pennies ol' buoy.. or are you 15!?!

4) And as for asking advice from people on this site 'kampa747', are you putting yourself down as not being good enough to provide advice of this nature??

But I still thank you all for telling me your thoughts as arguing against them helps to further make up my mind! :ok:

40k :rolleyes:

[Postman Plod]

Harsh is a complete understatement - out of order is a bit more like it! Read the posts again! :mad:

If I had set my mind on a career, and been put off and put off by the company I wanted to work for time and time again, would I not perhaps start to look for another job? Or would I just stay unemployed in the hope that one day they might say yes?

So when you've accepted you're not going to get in to the RAF, have redirected your mindset to a civvy career, and have made moves in that direction, wouldn't you be a little unsure after all the uncertainty and crap you've been through already, especially having such a short time to say yes or no?

40K has made the right decision for him - I hope it goes well. Certainly doesn't justify posts like that!

[Time Bandit]

Well said 40k. Good luck with whatever you choose, whether it be the RAF, a bank or a supermarket.

Buoy 15, badly put and wrong. People think about things. Smarter people think more about things, especially about large life decisions. Who can honestly say they wouldn't/didn't have the slightest apprehension about pitching up to start 16 years service, especially when starting out in today's less than rosy service? Very few I should think.

Judging by 40ks comment number one, he is the one who's time has been wasted.

All the best 40k. Take a good iron.

[HalesAndPace]

Worry not, sonar buoy Channel 15 was designated for "emergency use only." Seems a perfect definition here!! ;)

[Neeps]

Good luck with it all 40k.

[Green Meat]

Give it a good shot, 40K. Never mind about your commitment issues, just make sure that your long term commitment is what you want to do with your life. I am just one of a long line of people who gave themselves major heartache over a girlfriend on IOT, who in the end turned out not to be worth it in any case! Fortunately I didn't let it influence any long term decisions, but I know other people who weren't so lucky :(

The fact that you've been selected for Pilot means that they think you have got something, all you have to do now is prove it to yourself. The 28 days to VW is rubbish, but don't even think about leaving before then as your comfy home bed will still be calling!

B15, surely better that someone takes a good hard realistic look at their progress before they have wasted to much taxpayers money.

[paddygee]

40k,
do it, or you'll end up like me, out of the RAf for ten years, and regretting:
1...Not being more committed when, after attending oasc in 1991 as a civilian, being told, when in the RAF in 93, that all I had to do was apply, no station boards, no station commanders interview, no three day board at oasc, just apply, and aircrew is all yours.....and I didn't.

2. Not applying for a commission again in 95 when I PVR'd.....it's a great life, and I still wish I was there

[buoy15]

Holes in Space

Nearly correct?

Channel 15 is recognised for marking datums in international SAR missions and is part of the "Quadrapartitate Agreement" if you know what that means

I suggest not!

So keep quiet

Regards B15

[BEagle]

That'll be something like the Quadripartite Agreement, eh Buoy?

:rolleyes:

[buoy15]

Yes Beags

Chastised my secretary about spelling - weell not happin agaain

However, my point is made!

[HalesAndPace]

[Ooh, get some more water on the winch, this here's a huge bite, Cap'n....!!

Back in your sonics cubicle buoy15, I was doing "Disport Open," stepping over main spars, dropping more sonar buoys than you've had hot dinners, plus loads of shyte that can't be discussed here, before you were the size of of a shirt button in your ma's tummy! Oh yes, & throwing out lots of your namesakes on SAR datums.

Seems like you are very much in the minority here about your comments on 40k-ft AMSL - did we miss on commissioning per chance??? :rolleyes:

[Blacksheep]

So, the 24 hours are up. What was the decision?

It was a no-brainer to me, but then I'm with the Romans. Twelve years military service should be a compulsory qualification for citizenship... :ok:

[40k-ft AMSL]

24 hours are up and yes, I'm going for it!! :D

I figured that if there is a lot of holding, it'd be a fine chance to actually get my ATPL done just as an extra something (of course time permitting!). Besides, I'm sure the RAF is gonna teach me it all anyway so should be a breeze! Then at the end of my service it should be a short hop to the airlines!

PS
I've always thought a little national service would be a good prerequisite for citizenship as well as softening up all those 'bad lads' out there! ;)

[Flashdance9]

40k-ft AMSL Well, er, um, does an ATPL(F) count...??!!


In fact there's a DE finishing EFT on a UAS up north, who before joining the RAF was a certified airline pilot with an ATPL!!

So others have done it! :ok:

[40k-ft AMSL]

Probably best to keep that to yourself...
Think you're right!

Anyone know if having a PPL will fast track me through EFT?? :}

[UberPilot]

No it will not.

A PPL means nothing - anyone can get one with enough cash and time. EFT will test how quickly and how well you can learn new skills and how appropriate you are for the 3 streaming options.

[40k-ft AMSL]

Well a PPL must surely help by knowing the 'effects of controls, straight and level flight' etc! But I get your point, I guess they'll give me some other stuff that I won't know!

Anyone out there been through EFT but having a PPL??

Thanks, 40k :cool:

[caspertheghost]

It helps on your first few trips, but please don't think you know it all before you get there - I've seen too many people turn up thinking they were the dog's danglers only to screw up big style. What will help you out is the 40 plus hours of airmanship you will have under your belt. Actually being able to do the flying thing (handling wise) will only help so much as you will be expected to fly "our way" from the off.
Glad you came to your decision, it was a brave move to air it on this forum but I hope it helped. When you get to IOT though, keep your head down and when it all gets too much just keep telling yourself that you'll be out of here soon and onto much better things than any of your tormentors (PTIs, Admin Trainer Nazi Flight Commanders etc.) could ever aspire to!
Good Luck!

[Llademos]

.... Nazi Flight Commanders

That's no way to talk about Mike Jenvey

(only joking, honest, please don't inspect my room ...):} :O

[BEagle]

The PPL will only be of any help if you were taught the basics properly. Such as attitude flying and a good l:sad:kout technique. If you were taught 'point-and-power' for the final approach and Standard Closing Angle for medium level navigation, you will certainly have some initial advantage.

But not for long as EFT tests different skill set requirements.

If you are airborne and see another mate solo in a similar aircraft do you:

1. Give way in accordance with Rules of the Air;
or 2. Check there's no-one looking and bounce the bug.ger?

Don't answer. But no matter how old you are, when you spot an easy target if the horns still twitch under your (possibly bald) scalp, you'll know that you were always intended to be a fighter pilot!

[airborne_artist]

Remember the Lancaster series on C4? Two pilots made it to the final, and the AAC lad did well, and although the 'bus FO wasn't bad, he wasn't as good. He had 1500+ hours, against the other guy's <100 ...

[40k-ft AMSL]

'point-and-power' for the final approach and Standard Closing Angle for medium level navigation :ooh: Well I certainly can't say I know it all now!! Looking forward to learning it all though!

Gonna be one hell of an adventure! 40k

[Washington_Irving]

One might also argue that a "fresh out of the box" PPL will be in better shape for EFT than someone who has held the license for a while- less time for bad habits to develop, since there is no civvy equivalent of CFS Standarisation to keep you in line. There are also things like procedural differences (PFLs and circuits immediately spring to mind.)

For Christ's sake don't go in there acting like a know-it-all. Your instructor's wife will end up wearing your b0llocks for earrings and everone else on the course will think you are a complete chopper.

[Grand Fromage]

PPL SchmeePL, rise above the rest! Seriously though, swallow your pride for the first 2 or 3 trips and keep an open mind. Let your RAF flying training be the bench mark on which you base your civvie stuff, don't try to resist and do it the other way round.

:ok:

[BEagle]

"........there is no civvy equivalent of CFS Standarisation to keep you in line..."

That might have been true once, but ever since JAR-FCL came into being, revalidation of a SEP Class Rating by experience also includes a mandatory training flight of not less than 1 hour. Which is not much, but is better than nothing!

Your PPL privileges allow you to hire an aircraft and take your friends flying pretty well anywhere you wish. Without an overarching umbrella of duty pilots, duty instructors, authorisers or anyone else to nanny you about- and you're entirely responsible for pre-flighting your aircraft, cleaning the windscreen, checking the oil, refuelling it etc. So, if used properly, your PPL will give you a lot of useful captaincy and self confidence. It is entirely up to you to look after yourself, your aircraft and your passengers....

You'll be in the RAF for quite a while before you're even allowed to take an aircraft from A to B, land, turn it round and fly back again without Mummy having first checked that you've washed behind your ears.

When I was 17, on my RAF-sponsored 30 hour PPL course I took an aeroplane to a couple of aerodromes I'd never ever been to before on my qualifying cross-country. It was a brand new Cessna 150. The next time I did that wasn't until 8 years later when I took a Hunter to St Athan for a static display and brought it again the following Monday morning. I doubt whether it's any easier today....

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

40k - well done
here's to hoping you don't get "A" SQN
I can remember being on the drill square in front of No.1 (with FS McIver doing the honours), and "A" SQN ambling past (they hadn't yet learnt to march) chanting "A SQN, A SQN, A, A, A!"
We would sing (with FS McIver conducting.......) "Gay SQN, Gay SQN, Gay, Gay, Gay!"
You will love it - it will be one of the most intense 6 months you'll have in your life!

[Baron Von H]

40k, having recently left IOT as a sqn cdr I can confirm the following for you regarding PVR (actually VW as you have already been told). You can ask to VW at any stage and the process runs as follows:

Let you flt cdr know and he will discuss the issues with you and give you a 24 hour coolling off period to think about it.

See your flt cdr again to confirm you decision and they will then help you sort out the paper work.

Speak to your sqn cdr to further discuss the whys and wherefores.

Speak to Wg Cdr Cadets who will look at the whys and wherefores and check that you are not being cajolled into doing something 'against your will'. He will then make a recommendation to the Gp Capt who will interview you briefly and confirm the decision. He will also make a recommendation for future consideration if you were to apply again.

You are right to want to give it a go but whatever your concerns give it your best shot and be yourself.

Good luck