Buying an A/C share

[Fat Dog]

Hi All

Thinking about buying a share in a light (aerobatic) A/C. Would anyone be kind enough to tell me the things I should be looking out for/finding out or otherwise considering.

Many Thanks

[AerBabe]

Good timing - I was just about to search the archives on the subject myself.

For me, I would be using all my savings - presumably it varies from group to group whether they would buy back the share at any time, or you have to sell it yourself?

The other thing I would be concerned about is suddenly finding the a/c needing a new engine, and having to cough up for it. Again, it seems to vary whether the hourly cost factors in money for overhauls etc.

What are the traps to watch out for with a/c type and revalidation by experience?

Is it a good idea to go for a group where a share-owner is an instructor?

[18greens]

Why don't you just rent the aero steed of your choice. Pitts, extras, tigers a CAP 10 and no doubt some others are available.

Generally flying clubs don't make that much on aircraft rental and they generally don't do that bad a job on looking after them. But their hourly figure is about on the number (and they have instructors available)


However, some planes are not available to hire (eg YAKs) so buying is the only option.

If you buy a share find out
A) The state of the finances (are they in debt and trying to recover debt form future rentals)

B) What state is the engine in. All engines have TBOs. If yours is at 90% a £20,000 bill may be on its way.

c) Talk to the owners who will be left behind, and ask around at the airfield. You may benefit from stories you hear at the bar.

D) Look at the ADs. Make sure there aren't any wing spar mods looming on your chosen steed.(£10,000ish)

Having said all of that most groups are lovingly formed around looked after aircraft. The groups tend to expell less than careful pilots. They keep a sensible grip on finances, adjust the figures as required to meet forecast bills.

As to selling the share generally its down to you. Lots of sales of shares are distress sales so cheeky offers are often entertained. If two are for sale then a dutch auction can ensue. Don't feel guilty about this because when you come to sell you will get some ridiculous offers. Don't spend what you can't afford to loose.

Go to a share oriented field (White waltham, Popham, Barton, Headcorn, North Weald ) where you will find an excellent choice .

Whatever you choose have fun.

[egbt]

Also think about some of the practical issues - flying a group a/c for an hour will generally cost less but will have increased financial risk and will take more of your time; instead of walking up (possibly after waiting for the last person to rent to get back:}) doing a pre-flight and flying you may have to open the hanger doors (ours are ex RAF and could be beyond the older or petit pilot), move some a/c out of the way (they could be heavier than yours!), pull yours out to the apron, put in some oil and fuel then fly then do the reverse when you get back.

Availability is the other big issue, a large group can be cheap and good value but if everyone wants to fly at the weekend you have a problem and a lot of discontent. If however you can fly mid week and all the others want the week end you will have tremendous availability and flying subsidised by the others. Best check the booking system (on-line is best) and/or the tech log to check out usage patterns.

Good luck

P.S.

I had an hour in the air today, organised at an hours notice, the hanger was open and the exit clear - and it cost < 40% of a club spam-can on a frequent flyer deal - so it can work:D

[Zulu Alpha]

I would suggest asking for the accounts going back 3-5 years. Look and see what the bills have been like

Then talk to their mechanic, bear in mind he may be reluctant to say anything bad about a customers aircraft in case it gets back to them. Read between the lines of his answers. You may want to get an independent mechanic to inspect it.

Go look at the aircraft when it is in for its annual and all the cowls and covers are off. If it looks good then it is a good sign. If it looks a mess then you should be concerned.

You can make estimates of when a new engine etc. will be required and therefore the cost implication.

See if they have an engine fund (we do). We put £10 per hour into it, a new member gets/buys there share of this fund.

Meet all the members of the group and ask whether you like/trust them enough to go into a financial arrangement with them.

Do they always fix problems immediately and properly or are there quite a few things that are being put off.

In my experience having a lot of rules doesn't help as there are always too many grey areas. For example supposing someone damages the aircraft this is obviously their fault. But what if they claim it was caused by something wrong with the aircraft? Who then pays. Its best to be on good terms with he other members rather than pulling out the rulebook.

Generally owning a share is lower flying cost than renting because private C of A is cheaper than a public one, there is no profit element and you can do things yourself like cleaning etc.. There is also pride of ownership and the ability to have the aircraft for a whole day or weekend (or maybe a week) without minimum hours. But check the group rules on this.

I have owned a share in the same group aircraft for 15 years and it has worked very well with good availability.

If you find something you fancy then start asking lots of questions. It is buyer beware but if you use common sense and take your time then I'm sure you'll not regret it.

Good luck

[Piltdown Man]

Share a plane with friends. Whilst well drawn up syndicate agreements and audited accounts suit many (suits, mainly), don't forget why you are doing it. It's to have fun!

[snchater]

I own a C182 with my best friend (except when he dinged the prop!).
Having previosly both been in an 8-man group we have a legal ownership agreement, audited accounts and payment by standing order.
Like a marriage, best friends can fall out leaving lawers the only benefactors .

[IO540]

I have never bought a share but had a look at a few (reasonably good condition IFR aircraft, in this case) and, in retrospect and sometimes a long time later, have found that each of the shares I saw were being sold in a certain amount of desperation, by pilots who saw the aircraft gradually become less and less useful (avionics such as an ADF packing up) while the rest of the group, being VFR pilots, refused to pay their share of fixing it. So this is something to consider; if you want a plane for serious going places, check out what sort of flying the rest of the group does. Phone/meet each one individually.

Ultimately, no matter how nice people appear, and indeed no matter how honest they actually are, one cannot buck their long term objectives and their [in]ability to finance them.

It's probably different and easier for basic planes which one just pops up in for a local bimble on a nice day.

[foxmoth]

Aero aircraft can be ideal for a large group as many aero flights tend to be fairly short local flights and not taking the aircraft away for long periods,hence availability is not that big a problem. Against that you do need to be aware of problems with people overstressing or engine damage. I would suggest having a fairly strict policy on aero checkouts before members are let loose, and as with any group you should have a well set out set of rules.

[englishal]

What about starting a group from scratch with a few likeminded folk?

I was thinking about buying into a share, but it puts me off buying into an already established group, as you don't really know what you're getting yourself into. I was a member of a non capital group (i.e. I just committed to a certain number of hours per year with no capital outlay) for a few years, and frankly would have been very p*ssed off had I bought in (all the promises which were broken, the decision to base the aircraft elsewhere, aircraft not coming back on schedule and not even a phonecall to let you know, so you turn up at the airfield and twiddle your thumbs before going home.... etc.....). You soon realise that you're told a lot of stuff to get you to join and once in, you're stuck. So I eventually left, loosing out I might add as I had made hourly commitments which couldn't be fulfilled and were lost.

I would rather find one other / a few people who are interested, then establish the rules, decide on an aircraft and price, and go out and buy it together from the word go. That way there are no issues, everyone knows what they're getting into and the purchase costs (survey etc) can be split at the time.

Bulldog anyone?:D

[AerBabe]

Thanks for all the advice and tips.

I can't see this being a long-term investment; at some point my savings are going to have to go on a deposit for a house. I was looking at it more as an alternative to earning about 20 p a year interest in the building society. However, I don't want to let down any other group members either.

Rental prices down sarf are fairly OTT. I can hire a bit cheaper through the RAF, but it's a trek to my nearest stations with flying clubs. My thinking was that, if I bought into a group, I would get some regular flying done for 6-12 months ... something I'm desperately short of at the moment.

No hurry to make any decisions though. There's Christmas/New Year/job hunting all to be done. :rolleyes:

[foxmoth]

There's Christmas/New Year/job hunting all to be done.

How about asking Santa for a share for Christmas;)

[Pitts2112]

Two things to start with before you get to any of the practical details people have mentioned here.

1. Decide what kind of flying you want to do and what kind of aircraft meet that need. The original poster said something aerobatic, which helps define the need, but even at that there is a lot of variety. Single or two-seater? High or low wing, or biplane? Competing seriously or just going to have a bit of fun? Pitts, Skybolt, Decathalon, Cap 10?

2. Join a group for the people before the aircraft. A nice aircraft with a group of jerks around it will result in a miserable experience. How they treat each other is as important (some would argue MORE important) than how they treat the airplane.

After that you get into the practical things like location of the aircraft, rules to give everyone a fair shot at availability, quality and timeliness of the maintenance and the other good points which have been made here. Take some time to let yourself be known in the community and let people know that you're looking. Shares can often become available if the right person is looking.

Good luck!

Pitts2112

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

Aerbabe

You thinking of leaving the airfield?
:{ :{ :{

Check your PMs too

[AerBabe]

I'm all overcome. :O :O :O

Yes, I am thinking of leaving - see your PMs now too!