What's a wingover?

[Dude~]

Can someone describe a wingover for me please?

Thanks

[2Donkeys]

Pull the aircraft up into a steep climb, as the speed decays, start banking upto and past 90 degrees and as the nose falls through, roll off the bank and pull out of the dive facing in the direction you came from.

In a nutshell.

[Dude~]

Thanks 2 donks. Presumably when you pull out of the dive you have changed your heading by a considerable ammount?

Also, I assume during the banking you are at 1g or less since you let the nose drop?

Done similar things but not just wasn't certain what people mean when they say 'wingover'.

[2Donkeys]

Presumably when you pull out of the dive you have changed your heading by a considerable ammount?

180 degrees if all has gone according to plan.

2D

[Dude~]

OK I've got it now. Thanks!

[ronnie3585]

Anyone care to explain a Dutch Roll:)

[Studefather]

R3585

Isn't that the sick making one evident in some a/c types in S&L flight when trimmed out controls are disturbed?
A bit like being on a boat traversing the swell at 45 deg.
Yaw, Roll, Pitch and Reverse Yaw, Roll, Pitch. etc. etc.
Remember being on a Jetstream at Cranfield mid '70s which did it quite nicely.

[stiknruda]

A wingover is exactly as described by 2d - but do be careful, low level w/o's have bitten their fair share of tyro's! They have also bitten a few "experienced" folk - RAF Nimrod in Canada a few years ago.


It is really imperative that one watches the angle of bank as one approaches the "halfway point" - at this point ideally you'd want to be positive approaching knife edge, NOT negative!


Was very surprised to see the maneouver in the BAeA (beginner/std)) sequence a year or two ago.

Stik

[Fuji Abound]

Was very surprised to see the maneouver in the BAeA (beginner/std)) sequence a year or two ago.

Why?

[TheOddOne]

'cos it ain't in the CIVA Aresti catalogue as a power figure, hence isn't in International power aerobatic competitions.

It is in domestic Glider aerobatic competitions as a widening of the repertoire at Sports and Intermediate, as are varieties of quarter clovers, where machines and pilots can't do some of the figures at Unlimited Glider.

However, both these figures DO have a place in Beginners/Standard power domestic comps., for similar reasons. They provide useful co-ordination exercises without over-stressing pilot or machine and can be quite hard to do really well - sufficiently not to lose too many marks, anyway!

Cheers,
The Odd One

[tonyhalsall]

Interesting.
So what do you call the same manoevre when you initiate the turn by use of rudder?
i have found this a particularly satisfying manoevre to turn through 180 degrees and often practice it trying not to lose height and resulting in exactly a reciprocal heading.
I don't know if it has a name, I just presumed it was a wing over, because that is what seemed to happen - seemingly not.

[Andy_R]

tony are you sure you are not talking about a stall turn?

Rather different in that a wingover is executed from a steep climb and the ailerons are the main instigator of the manouevre and a stall turn is executed from a vertical pull up, bleeding off speed before using rudder (with secondary small aileron input) to turn and point downward.

Pull the aircraft up into a steep climb, as the speed decays, start banking upto and past 90 degrees and as the nose falls through, roll off the bank and pull out of the dive facing in the direction you came from.

.......... remembering to reduce the throttle (on a fixed pitch prop) accordingly as the nose falls through the horizon or you will over rev on the ensuing dive.

[waldopepper42]

Sounds like what was once described to me as a "Bridge".

Similar to a stall turn, but the rudder is applied earlier and the resulting yaw takes the aeroplane around a much wider arc.

Stall turns, officially, should pivot about a point within the wingspan and ideally about the CoG. Can't say that all (any?) of mine are that good though! :{

[2Donkeys]

Similar to a stall turn, but the rudder is applied earlier and the resulting yaw takes the aeroplane around a much wider arc.

That doesn't sound much like a wingover - more a poorly executed stall turn.

Performing a wingover, the aircraft doesn't (or shouldn't) stall and rudder use (although type specific) doesn't really come into it.

2D

[Sleeve Wing]

So, guys, is there a difference between a wingover and a chandelle.........................?


Just curious.

:confused:

[2Donkeys]

A Chandelle is nothing like a Wingover.

A Chandelle is a continuous maximum performance climbing turn rolling out onto the reciprocal heading just about the stall.
If you want to think in terms of Americanisms, think of a Wingover as half a lazy eight.

[Chilli Monster]

Also you can do a Chandelle in a glider - I wouldn't dream of attempting a wingover in one.

[--o-o-0-o-o--]

Dont mean to hijack the thread, but is there a web site with diagrams/descriptions of aerobatic manouvers ?? I am interested in taking an aerobatics course and would like to have more of an idea before undertaking the course. Cheers, Russ. :ok:

[englishal]

In a well executed Lazy8 / Wingover, it's interesting to see the ASI read ~zero without being stalled as the nose slices through the horizon.

Guess Buzz Lightyear would call it "falling with style":D

[waldopepper42]

2d - no, it sounds like a bridge! :O

[Tim Inder]

Chilli monster, I'd have thought that you meant the other way around? Wingovers can be pretty gentle depending on how aggresively one pitches up etc, but to chandelle a glider from a stable glide would be a rather non-event. You'd just end up at a similar altitude pointing the other way going very slowly!

[Lister Noble]

TRY www.iac.org
Lister:D

[Zulu Alpha]

To et a good explanantion of aerobatic manouvers and what they should look like is explained on the British Aerobatic Association website.

See http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/judging/judging-topics.htm for details

Also on the website are contact details of aerobatic pilots around the country who are able to help paople starting aerobatics, see http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/training/buddy_main.htm for details


Good luck and enjoy yourself

[stiknruda]

Lister - the IAC, albeit a fine organisation is anything but International! It is the American equivalent of the BAeA - however like boxing organisations in the States it does have competition from the AAA!

The "executive" are elected and they seem to fall out every so often, so dummies are spat and a "better" organisation is formed but they tend to fade into insignificance rapidly. (Sorry, Mr Dorsey!)

Stik

[Lister Noble]

Stik,that was the site I looked at before you took me up,it gave me a basic idea of what was going to happen.
I then had to look afterwards to see what had happened!
Lister:D

[n5296s]

To learn more about aerobatics, I'd strongly recommend "Better Aerobatics" by Alan Cassidy. I've read probably most of the published books about aerobatics (not all of them for sure) and this is definitely the best imo. Lots of practical info about what the manoeuvres are as well as how to fly them. And as a bonus, he's a Brit.

n5296s

[Zulu Alpha]

And as a bonus, he's a Brit.

Actually a Yorkshireman.

I agree with you 100% about his book, Its the best manual on aerobatics written...and makes a great Xmas present.

[RatherBeFlying]

Lazy Eights were taught to me as a more sporting way to get rid of excess altitude in a glider than just popping the spoilers.

There is a wingover at each end.

It helps to choose a road or fence line for alignment as with many aeros.

In a Blanik you accelerate to 70 kt. before pulling up and adding bank using rudder for co-ordination.

It is a positive G maneuver at the apex of the turn. As you gain familiarity with the maneuver maximum bank can reach the 90 degree vicinity and you begin to get into some very atypical aerodynamics.

At the apex the stick will be well back. You then begin to take off bank and reduce pitch to regain airspeed.

You could characterise a wingover as aborting a barrel roll approximately a quarter way through.

Please review first in a/c with qualified instructor at sufficient altitude. Attempted barrel rolls and wingovers by the untutored do sometimes run out of altitude before the maneuver is completed with fatal results to both occupants and airframe:uhoh:

[egbt]

A piece in the current edition of Flyer is worth the read:
Manoeuvres that Murder:

"Brian Lecomber lists the three most dangerous aerobatic manoeuvres (you'll never guess what they are) and some tips which will stop them getting you"

"Three words which should be carved in stone: check thy energy"

Number 3? "The ultimate humble manouvre - the wing over"

albeit used incorrectly by pilots escaping from a :mad: up manoeuvre. Unfortunately it does not seem to be available on the web site.

[Milt]

Wingovers are the normal means of entry to the steep dives used by dive bombers enabling dive entry without resorting to negative g. The steeper the dive the more accurate the delivery.

Technique for example for the Mustang was to approach a target a little to one side and 7,000 feet above so that the target appeared to disappear for a few seconds as it went under an inboard section of the wing. Then one would execute the start of a barrel roll, pulling the nose hard up, over and well down through the horizon whilst inverted meanwhile rolling out to line up on the target in a steady 60 degree dive. This 60 degree dive angle appears to the pilot to be almost vertical.

This manoeuvre would result in a reversal of direction and a stabilised dive to the release point quickly followed by a high g pull out.

Perhaps there is yet an old Stukka pilot out there who can describe the dive entry for one of those.

[djpil]

Dr. Günther Eichhorn's website has this info - (http://acro.aerobatics.ws/acro_figures.html#wing_over) which is the way I do them myself. From memory, the local military do it per Dave Robson's book (http://www.aviationtheory.net.au/aero.html) - pull up until 15 - 20 deg above the horizon, roll to 90 deg bank angle, stop the roll, maintain back pressure at about 2 g - get the book to see the rest.

[McFunkletrumpet]

Not being an aero type can I ask
"is it like a leg-over but higher?"

[eharding]

Actually a Yorkshireman.

And exactly what part of Yorkshire is Sussex in then? :p

[hugh flung_dung]

I teach wingovers slightly differently. The aim is to turn through 180 degrees whilst (maybe) gaining a little energy.
Accelerate to at least 2.5Vs, look at horizon at wingtip and hold it there while pitching to 60deg, unload to zero'ish g, pause, co-ordinated smooth roll (look down side of nose) with a little back pressure such that after 90 degrees the fuselage is horizontal and pointing where the wingtip was and the wings have just reached vertical, look back for the line and smoothly coordinate pitch and roll so that you just pass through fuselage level just as the wings reach level just as you reach your entry height and speed and perfectly on the line - that's the theory anyway.

Chandelles are a speed_for_height turn-around, flown at about the same min speed: roll to 30 degrees AOB, smoothly pitch to 30 degrees, bank reaches a max of about 60 deg at 90 degree point, from there on smoothly coordinate pitch and roll to struggle away from the stall without sagging. Easiest done when at 90 degrees to the reference.

Someone commented that wingovers aren't in the catalogue, neither are simple aileron rolls but they're also great for a first manouvre to build confidence.
HTH but please don't self teach aeros.

HFD