SAS, career or stepping stone?

[Maris Otter]

After 16 years of flying for SAS, I've got to admit that I am so incredibly unmotivated, frustrated and fed up.
There is absolutely no career prospect in this airline. In my eyes SAS is a stepping stone, and not a place to stay or to build a carreer. When I joined, I thought I had come to heaven and that my future as a pilot was secured. Now I realize that SAS is just another dead end alley. Those who got out of this in a good way, are those who left for Dragon Air, Emirates and others 5-10 years ago. They were wise enough to leave before it really got nasty. The rest of us? We're stuck in this mess.
What mess you might ask? I'm talking confusion, disappointment, desceit and manipulation; the legacy from various mergers and buy-ups. Combined with a cunning and incompetent management this gives the most appalling working conditions obtainable.
I am so sick and tired!!! I beleived in a carreer in this company. That was a big mistake. I should have jumped off in due time!
It is so unmotivating to work for a company where there is no positive future prospects, no carrots. My command course has been cancelled twice. Me chief pilot do not care to inform me about the companys future plans. My salary is lower than it was 5-6 years ago. My working conditions is tougher than ever. The long haul segment is in danger of dissappearing all together.
Lately I've felt really lousy about it all, and at a couple of occations I have actually called in sick. Not because I have a physical ailment, but merely because I cant stand facing it all!
Actually, just putting on my uniform makes me physically uncomfortable. I have nothing but disgust for the whole company and situation.
Allright I still have a paid job. But I actually expected more, when I joined! What I am mostly fed up with is that you cannot really trust anyone. Not the management, nor the union. I do not want to post any mails on any union website. It will certainly backfire, as this is written with names,and the management has full access. Right now there are negotiations between the pilots union and SAS. So what do I think or anticipate? Not much; I do not trust any of them. I expect conditions and salary to get cut, hammered and severed again.
I used to be fairly ambitious. I was hoping for command on a wide body aircraft, flying intercontinental routes. I now realize that this is totally out of reach.
So what are my prospects at the peak of my carreer? Working my buts of as a commander on a 737. Flying domestic flights (or European with domestic layovers) with Norwegian colleagues, Norwegian management, Norwegian taxes, Norwegian cabin attendants, Norwegian ground staff, Norwegian weather, Norwegian training department, Norwegian culture!
Lately I have noticed I do not any longer envy pilots flying the big modern machines to the juicy destinations. I have become humble. I have humble goals. I want to retire. Yes, it happens sooner or later to most pilots, BUT I WANT IT NOW! I had my medical last month. I told the doctor that I was not well. Did he beleive me? Naaah!

Boy, am I fed up!!

M O

[Kopeloi]

There still is lot of other airlines hiring. Start with Ryanair and Easyjet if you like to stay in northern europe. If not start looking south to where your colleagues went.
Believe me , every company has it good and bad....
You must agree, that it was the time for SAS to make those changes in fight to survire.

[Iflyforcash]

If you have a "greencard" fill out this application;

http://ups.softshoe.com/cgi-bin/job-show?J_PINDEX=J451243VD&TEMPLATE=/htdocs/job-show.html

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/40/12/

[Maris Otter]

You got my point, Kopeloi: If one wants a carreer, one has to look elsewhere for it. Don't think it is with SAS!
Whether it is justifiable for SAS to implement these radical changes: Yes, to some extent, but management attacks the same groups over and over again. One of these groups are the pilots. We pay year after year after year..... Thinking of where this will end, makes me cringe!
Surely every airline has it's good and bad, as you rightfully point out (I've been working abroad at a couple of occations), it is however hard to see the good things with SAS these days.

M O

[Ramrise]

M O,

Being in my 9th year with SAS I know all the feelings that you are experiencing, trust me. I have, however, chosen to see this as a new start. And, for the record, I am not a management pilot, I almost couldn't be further from it actually.

I never did see the glory days of SAS, and I never will. Not the glory days of yesteryear anyway. I chose to believe that there will be better days ahead. Why? Well, for a start the company is no longer the old SAS. And that is good!! We are much better suited to the competition of today that we were just 3 years ago. Had we not gone through that process we would have been dead in the water. Now, the pilots are, more than management it seems, determined to see that this airline is run the way it should be run. The profitable way, that is. We WILL NOT tolerate the frivolous use of money on politically savvy, but economically disastrous solutions. While at the same time the company presents us with demands for further cost reductions. They must think we are stupid.

What has happened, I think, is that most of the pilots have realized that the only way we have ANY chance of maintaining or improving our conditions is through PROFITABILITY. I do have some years to go before retirement and I want to make sure that the 'golden cow' is healthy and supplying milk. In other words, I want my pension to be as good as possible. (Right now the 60+ issue is threatening that, as some misguided individuals who still think that the 'money tank' is bottomless. They have enjoyed the good times and want more. How selfish is that??)

The unknown factor is of course the real business plan. If, as some say, it calls for a company of 1000 pilots we are screwed. If not, well, at least we have a chance.

Regards,

Ramrise

[Maris Otter]

You have many valid points, Ramrise, and I too do appreciate that the company runs with a profit. I share your thoughts with regards to that it is likely that SAS will exist in some way or form in the future.
But you do reveal that your main point in your motivation is retirement and pension. How sad is that? You only work because you look forward to stop working (?)!! It seems like we have the same aspirations. And to me, that is just not good enough. I demand more out my job! I demand job satisfaction on an everyday basis! I demand pride in having and doing my job! And I demand confidense in the management and my union!
I once thought I would live to see this. Now, I don't!

The 60+ issue is, as you say, a question of selfishness. I think, to some degree, it is indicative of the time in which we live. These are times of individualism. Real solidarity vanished 20 years ago. With individuals like that (there are of course lots more) there aren't much hope for future union work. These guys would rather go for an individual contract, if that was more beneficial for them than a collective agreement. To some extent it is a privilige to work in a country with good legislation on this issue.

M O

[empati]

First, I understand your frustation. This sick to the stomack feeling is spreading like a wildfire - forget the birdflu. And guess what, it affects safety! Unlike what outside spectators might think - ref. check scanair. no/forum on this date heading "SAS piloter er fed-up."

Like Ramrise I choose to hope for better times. But I too have my down days... But then I fly with one of the ex-sk guys, and dispite differences, I feel up.

And guys, if you missed it, check NRK Brennpunkts nett-TV Tirsdag 8/11.

Regards,

Empati:yuk:

[BeforeStart]

Maris Otter:

I must admit that at first I thought you were joking when talking about the appaling conditions that you feel SAS offers, but after reading through your post I came to the conclusion that you´re probably just suffering from the same disease as the rest of us - The Grass Is Always Greener On The Other Side Syndrome.

I can understand your frustration in working for a company that has talked about redundancies, costcutting and outsourcing for more than 3 years; nobodys morale is gonna improve after that kind of an ordeal.

However, it seems to me that you are very much forgetting an important question: What exactly is it that you want from your career and your life? Is it a bigger plane? A different location? Better layovers?

If you do some research you will find that it isn´t exactly everybody who loves beeing with Emirates and it isn´t everybody who loves living in Hong Kong.

Depending on the fleet your on, your pay is still good compared to the non-flag carriers around Europe. Talk to people working for the LCC´s and see if they envy you. I think you will find that your present job offers a much greater change of having a good social life than a "career" at easyJet, Ryanair, Air Berlin, Sterling or whoever you want to mention.

To put it diplomatically: You appear to have lost ground contact if you think that you will be able to survive a 20 year career with for instance a LCC even though you will have a quick upgrade.

[Bengt Engel]

not to point my finger at anyone....


...but I believe that most of the pilots in this part of the world never had a "real" job or have forgotten all about it....

I still consider my work to be more like a hobby....and loving every minute of it...well, maybe not getting up at 4 am...:}

[Twin2040]

You got many points - Maris Otter. Being in another so called Air Line in Scandinavia, I find it hard to belive that SAS is no longer - the best deal around in Scandinavia - I agree that things and time has been hard to SAS. Try to talk to eks. colleques and check others forums - you will find that the grass is not greener at all. Airline business is changed for ever - low cost, fierce competion, 9/11 - I could go on.......... Bottomline is that the hey days of our trade is never going to return...... Better luck next time with your medical .....................

[Nick Figaretto]

I think the overall problem is that the grass just isn't green anymore. On either side.

[Wiskey]

MO has many good points, and SAS will be a stepping stone for some, which alone indicates a new era. SAS is too slow to turn around, and will therefore be struggling for many years to come. If you are looking for a challenging career, don't start with SAS. This company has for me so far been a great disappointment. I have never been in a crewroom with so much negative statements as SAS's, and the motivationfactor close to zero. The cabinsickness some days at 30% and 20% for the cockpit talks for itself.... This company is OK for the ones that doesn't care and don't like challenges.. With alomst 40 different unions, the management is not able to do much before this company either get split and sold in peaces to Lufthansa, or goes bankrupt.

[Apus]

Maris Otter - I fully agree!

Status:
I mistrust my management, and have lost my pride of being a pilot within the SAS (Braathens).
I've lost my belief in the pilot unions abilities.
However - I don't want to move, or commute my life away.

People, please remember that a lot of your colleagues started a career as SAS-pilot, while their friends got a masters degree with the intellectual stimuli and career options this offered.

In retrospect my choice would probably have been to start a career in a professional world where your abilities to adapt to any working situation would have been appreciated, and would have been a stepping stone up to another job on the other side of the street. Nowadays my friends' pay checks make the "well-payed SAS-pilot" feel even more sure about the bad choices of my youth.

Still:
No one can take away my freedom to be a moaning individual without any solutions, so gentlemen (and ladies) thank you for your time...:ok:

[Miserlou]

Nice one APUS,

I always thought the 'career' of airline pilot rather an over-statement. It's just a job.
As soon as you are qualified you have effectively reached the peek, achieved all that you can achieve. Yes, perhaps you get a command but that is only a small change in pay and actual activity. Maybe you switch type, different routes, long haul, but still nothing much has changed from the day you started. A very few will get into management but they still do the same job as you when they are out on the line.

And from day one the game has been how to get as much money for as little work as possible.

So Maris, for my part, you can take your mid-life crisis elsewhere; we're all in the same boat!

[RYR-738-JOCKEY]

Guys..snap out of it!
Apus wrote:
I mistrust my management, and have lost my pride of being a pilot within the SAS (Braathens).I've lost my belief in the pilot unions abilities.
However - I don't want to move, or commute my life away

We are at war with our management, there IS no pride in being a pilot in RYR. We are not ALLOWED to have a union, so the management refuses to acknowledge any collaboration of fellow-workers. We do not want to move, but we are being based wherever MOL needs us. Furthermore, our paycheck covers uniform, medical, LOL, hotel and travel during training/OPC, ID-cards, car-park fees, etc...even our coffee while on duty! Not to mention if you call in sick, then you will have to work it in by being rostered max of the FTL. 100 hrs pr month. Our year starts April 1st. The FTL is by law 900 hrs pr year, but you may be flying 900 Apr-Dec and then 300 hrs more till April. Totalling 1200+ in extreme cases.

So guys, you still work for the best company in Europe.

[GoingFor737]

"My company bought a smaller airline and they have captains who are younger than me, and some of those who had the courage to leave SAS may ultimately make more money than me, so now I just want to retire."

[Miserlou]

GoingFor737,

Do remember that it is highly probable that those younger captains in the other airlines were probably turned down by SAS, their first choice.
They were probably disappointed at the time.

[Hotel Charlie]

Miserlou,

You´re still full of yourself aren´t You? Why do you keep bringing the psych test up all the time? You obviosly must have some complex of som kind.
You know as well as the rest of us that there are a lot of SK guys that did not get into the Airforce while a number of BU guys did! So what does that say? That the SK guys are lesser pilots? Get a grip man!


GoingFor737,

"My company bought a smaller airline and they have captains who are younger than me,..
Seniority wise maybe younger (which I personally feel is not right) but agewise and experiencewise most likely not! If you care to look at the average age of a 15 year SK guy and compare to a 15 year BU guy you will find the SK guy to be younger and less experienced. So go cry for your sick mother elsewere! If anybody is losing careerwise it is the ex BU guys that are not captains yet!

[Miserlou]

HC,
Huh? I didn't bring up the psyche test. And there are many reasons why one may not be offered (or may not accept) employment with SAS or choose to continue with a current employer, commuting, command prospects, seniority and so on.

And, no, I know nothing of the SK, BU, air force stuff you mentioned. You must have turned left at the lights because you've lost me there. I really don't know what you're talking about!

As Twin 2040 mentioned, "...it is difficult to believe that SAS isn't still the best deal in Scandinavia", on paper, at least.

Figaretto names the problem which is industry-wide, there is very little green grass.

My first post on this topic was just being more blunt than Engell.

As pilots, we are a lucky lot, those of us who still have jobs especially.
Oh, but for those early starts. (Occasionally worth it just for the airborne sunrise!)

[iceshark]

Sen och aldrig någon service... nah just kidding. I think SAS is still one of the best bets for employment in Europe. Too bad they aren´t hiring... Although I must say it looked better a few years ago... say around year 2000. In that way I can totally agree with Maris because you want your company to be expanding not laying off staff and all (while paying those who do the sacking a big BIG bonus if I remember it correctly)

The problem with the business is that everybody wants to do it (fly) but few get the chance. Those who don´t get the chance today buy a type rating and work for peanuts for a while hoping to get a "real" job soon. I know I did everything I could to get my job which usually called for spending all funds available and usually a lot more...

Once inside you really want to keep the salary and dignity of the job high! I hope we succeed. No let´s phrase that differently... We shall succeed in keeping a high level of dignity and high salary!

[Jetavia]

The latest is that SAS may not be flying longhaul for more than another 10 years.

Also SAS has a huge debt that will maybe not make it possible to buy new aircraft to replace the aging fleet of MD80's..

[PropsAreForBoats]

iceshark...

I think SAS is still one of the best bets for employment in Europe. Too bad they aren´t hiring...

Allow me to inform you that in the latest union agreement 7 new steps were added BELOW the old first step in the payscale. All new hires will be placed in the regional (turboprop) segment of SAS, and at the bottom of this new scale. This is also applicable for the 350-something guys (and girls) who were fired; their years of earlier employment with SAS is recognized, but on the new scale. I.o.w., they will, when (if) rehired be placed 7 steps below the step they were forced to leave on the payscale. Add to this 4 years+ of constant mismanagement, mergers/takeovers pissing everybody off, miserable rostering, etc...

Do you still think it's one the best bets in Europe? Oh well, it matters not. The company is more likely to fold than to hire new pilots sometime soon, anyway.

[TheFatMan]

iceshark...
Allow me to inform you that in the latest union agreement 7 new steps were added BELOW the old first step in the payscale. All new hires will be placed in the regional (turboprop) segment of SAS, and at the bottom of this new scale. This is also applicable for the 350-something guys (and girls) who were fired; their years of earlier employment with SAS is recognized, but on the new scale. I.o.w., they will, when (if) rehired be placed 7 steps below the step they were forced to leave on the payscale.
Care to elaborate on that one? Or just confirm what the starting salary for a new F/O would be in SAS (yeah, yeah it will not happen for years you say but still would like to know). Is it comparable with Malmö, Flynordic, FlyMe or much lower?
Thanks

[braking action poor]

Until recently I had NO understanding what so ever for the SAS-guys...

But after flying with some of your old collegues, MO, (in FR) I very much understand your frustration.

BUT; as long as the scandinavian CAA's don't turn "liberal" on the 60-rule, the various SAS-companies will need to hire sometime in the next years-

with this in mind and looking towards WF; reducing the entry salaries in SAS is NOT a good solution of the company.

I personally would love to get a job back in Norway, flying turboprops instead of a big jet is not a problem, neither is paying the taxes there.
Starting at the bottom of a seniotiy list is not a problem.

What is a problem is taking a 40% paycut to come back. AND WF is being hard struck by this prolbem now. Finding a scandinavian pilot with more
than 800 hrs is NOT very difficult in todays world!! Or it should not be. But WF can't find anyone wanting to work for their T&C's, and that's bad for business!! SAS will be stuck in the same mud very soon.

Cut-backs were needed, and re organizing is still needed, but now it seems, mr Lindegaard is doing it in all the wrong places. And that is going to cost the company a lot in the future.

But then he will be gone from the company.

[captaink]

What the hell do you mean with scandinavian caa's and the 60 year limit. The 60 limit is just a union thing in SAS, the law says 65 !:cool:

[braking action poor]

Wow, that was a polite reply..... :}

Ok, the UNIONS and the companies have agreed on 60 as the "end", and there are probaly guys above that age flying around in NAS and other companies. My position in this thread is NOT to argue wether or not a pilot can fly/should fly to a certain age.

My point of view was only that in SAS, pilots retire at latest 60 years of age, and that there most likely is more than ONE pilot approaching this age.

A pilot leaving a position in any company means one of two things; either replace him with a new guy, or downsize the company.

Captaink, I didn't think you could miss the point in this argument by such a big margin.

If I make "poo-poo's" in my thread, sure, let me know! But don't start bashing with silly language.

Uansett hva ditt ordforråd er, jeg misliker å få slengt en "hva FAEN mener du med det" etter meg.

Is that clear for people?? :mad:

[PropsAreForBoats]

Hello BA poor

You make valid points about SAS and future recruitment, at the moment the T&C SAS can offer newhires (and rehires) are simply hopelessly unattractive. So if they plan a future for this airline, this must be adressed soon. However, you have missed that pilots are unfortunately allowed to fly until age 65 in SAS, at least until further.

[TheFatMan]

Totally agree with you BAP that the T&C in Scandi are low if you look at what we make down in Europe, but still would like to hear a figure!
ppjn.com is quite correct with regards to the most carriers, but I assume for SAS it mentions the old terms. Is it such a secret what the new salary is?

[braking action poor]

Fair deal: I din't know SAS had guys flying till 65, the x-sas guys I fly with left at 60, and said nothing about people flying till 65. :}

But increasing the cut-of age only delays the problem for SAS, and any other operator doing the same thing. The guys born 1945-50 will sooner or later have to stop flying commercially, and as I undestand, they are many!

My original point stands the same; SAS WILL stuggle to find the pilots they want/need.

[Kilo-club SNA]

Someone mentioned that SAS is slow to react, but listening to other comments it may be said for the pilots as well. There IS a career in aviation but just like any other career today you got to be prepare to risk a bit. Those who left SAS for asia carriers in 2000 were probably considered mad, and they could have lost a lot. In this business it's "who dares wins" (yes not that SAS I know :). There are always options, they are very rarely easy choices but that's what life is made of....isn't it.



As for the reduction in entry level pay.....well is it effecting anyone? And what relevance does it have. It still comes down to market forces, if you offer crap T&C you won't get the pilots you want. So wait until SAS is actually recruiting before discussing entry salary.


Having said that, I do feel for all you guys beeing trapped in the spiral of negative motivation. Hold your heads high!

Ok that's my to cents