Ungrateful pax?!

[Penguina]

I expect all kinds of reactions from a first-time passenger -nervous, exhilerated, inquisitive - but this is a first. I took a friend flying and, to be honest I was a bit put out with his attitude – he didn’t even say thank you let alone express any interest! OK true, I had made him get up very early because he'd wanted to go to France, then when the weekend's cold front loomed I explained that we'd have to do something a bit less exciting this time, but still! I had warned him about the wx this time of year and he insisted he was fine with that and would take the risk.

He just sat there looking bored and unimpressed, not saying anything all the way and then made a comment about my (well-executed, incidentally!) landing to the effect of 'oh well, at least we got down'. Like to see him do any better!!! :* Private flying’s not as comfortable as BA I know, but most people don’t seem to mind!

I don’t expect people to be falling on their knees in gratitude, but given that I’d spent £140 on entertaining him for the morning, you’d have thought he’d at least say thanks and stand me a cuppa instead of making me feel guilty for getting him up early in the morning. Grr – it was like he was busting himself to be ‘cool’ about it and forgot his manners in the process. Or maybe he can't deal with being told what to do by a younger woman... :*

(disengage rant mode)

Anyway, deep breath. The reason I say all this is to ask if anyone has had a similar experience. And to get it off my chest. Feel better now! :O

[MikeeB]

The wife ;)

She said it was boring and wouldn't be flying with me again.

[Stafford]

I suspect a bit of macho envy there Pppppenguina. ;) ;)

[mazzy1026]

She said it was boring and wouldn't be flying with me again.
Divorce :E

Pengy - do the old "pretend to faint" trick next time on him (we laughed about the idea about a year ago ISTR)

:E

[Aussie Andy]

just sat there looking bored and unimpressedTwo possibilities:[list=a] Scared
T*sser[/list=a]
Andy :ok:

[Seaton Approach]

Did an hour's worth of touch and go's a few weeks ago to get some practice in - the wife (NOT an aviator I hasten to add) decides to sit and watch from the touchline, and then after I came back in, get this...

Proceeded to give me a FULL de-briefing on each and every landing! Went something like this:

Cr*p, cr*p, cr*p.... ..... cr*p! I think I only did one landing which she was remotely impressed with!!!:{

Think we've just got to accept that not everybody shares the same passion for aviation as we do.

More than made up for it when it came to nocturnal T's and G's later that night though - full marks all round.... ;)

[Mariner9]

Could just be a personality thing Penguina, some people don't do "gratitude" very well.

It would be interesting to get your pax's view of events as told to others - could well have told his mates/colleagues whatever that he had a great time.

On the other hand Aussie Andy may be right, he could be either scared, a t*sser, or both :*

[englishal]

Had one lady throw up in my plane. Luckily she grabbed a headset bag just in time. Unluckily it had a mobile phone and wallet in the bottom. Luckily it wasn't mine.;)

[mazzy1026]

Think we've just got to accept that not everybody shares the same passion for aviation as we do.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there - I've had many a rant in the past about it, but it's just one of those things that you have to accept. After all, would we get excited at going to a stamp collectors convention? :D

Nothing wrong with collecting stamps by the way.

[DRJAD]

No, not experienced that sort of reaction.

Penguina, IMHO your rant is entirely justified, and his rudeness was not to be countenanced.

[tmmorris]

MikeeB - my wife is just the same. She actually went to sleep once, just as I was about to say 'Wow, what a great view of Brize - so good of the controller to give us a transit directly overhead!'

My son (aged nearly 2) is much more appreciative.

Tim

[bcfc]

Mrs bcfc and #1 son are pretty ambivalent about flying, although like the bacon sarnies when we arrive.

#2 son is much more appreciative so long as we go cloudy dodging and have fun on the way. He's happy to come along for the ride anytime.

All in all, most people I've taken up like it, appreciate why I do it, but don't get the passion. Only fellow pilots really understand . I haven't had anyone as rude as Penguina had, but then no one else I know stares up at the sky mystically wishing they were up there. I spend half my day doing it :)

[Established Localiser]

Should have done some Stalls , Steep Turns & unusual attitude that sounds appropriate as they seemed to have an "unusual Attitude" , ;)

I took my Dad after years of mithering him to come up with me , He seemed unimpressed and seemed glad the whole affair was over .

Maybe deep down he was a bit worried ( doesnt suit everyone)
I wouldnt worry about it , I tend to only take people now who seem genuinly interested in flying, some people just put it on their "done that " list !!

We love it anyway !! and they cant do it !!!!

nah nah na nah nah !!!!:ok:

EL:p

[Farmer 1]

I shudder to think how many pax I've brought home after spending a couple of weeks on the North Sea. How many have taken the time to say thank you, or give me an appreciative wave, do you think? I could probably count them on the fingers of one foot.

[englishal]

Should have done some Stalls , Steep Turns & unusual attitude
Bad move. I tried this with the Mrs, and it put an end to my flight "I feel sick, I want to go home". She didn't appreciate it either when I said "I'm bored, you fly".....talk about freaking out....:D

[18greens]

I know what you mean. Some people just cannot get that exited about anything. What a sad life they must lead.

I take people on a similar trip most weekends, give them my best tourguide speech of the south of england, entertain them with steep turns, give them their first go at flying a plane themselves and just not impressed.

Others wear giddy smiles from take off to touch down. The best ones are the ones that just want you to make it go tippy all of the time (about 1 in 100 trips on average).

Yet stick me on a pole 2000 feet above the airfield and I'd never get bored looking out. Every time you go up you see somthing you've never seen before.

Anyway if they all wanted to do it imagine how busy it would be up there.

The most gaulling thing is you paid for it. I'd have at least got the cost share and lunch out of the miserable git.

[Whirlybird]

I've not had that sort of thing happen. However, I do warn people that I fly a very ancient and tatty C150, that it won't be comfortable, that it won't be fast, and that they might not like it. (Though I do emphasise that, old or not, the aircraft is safe.) But it sounds like, whatever the reason, this chap has no idea of manners at all!!!!!

Nearest I've come to an experience like that? I took up two firends, husband and wife, cost sharing, one at a time. They both loved it, and asked if I'd take a friend of theirs. OK, I said. A couple of weeks later I got a phone call from their friend. She more or less demanded that I take her son flying for a birthday present. Well, I said, I might be able to, but I don't know when. That wasn't good enough; she wanted it soon, because his birthday was coming up, and she wanted it on a Saturday, as he worked in the week. I explained that I'm a helicopter instructor, and that I work Saturdays. "You mean you can't do it!", she said, clearly very annoyed. Having had enough by then, I said no, sorry, I couldn't. She was quite put out. The fact that I'd be paying for the privilege of taking her son flying didn't seem to occur to her.

I'm very careful who I take flying these days. And I tell them it'll be when it's convenient for me, and the fact we arrange it doesn't mean we'll fly, and I don't want any arguments if we don't.

After all, being pilots doesn't mean that we're aerial taxi services.

[flower]

Complete lack of manners and common courtesy by the sounds of it.
Regardless of if they enjoyed it or not you took your time out for them and they should have been polite.
Manners maketh man so they say, thankfully most people would be delighted to go flying with you Penguina.

[Radar]

Penguina,

As a complete contrast, I took my neighbour and her 12 year old son for a 40 minute trip down to EBSP and back for a cup of coffee last Saturday. The son had flown with me once as a 6 year old but this was the ladies first trip in a light aircraft. The trip down was initally a little turbulent and, soon after take off, I glimpsed (she sat in the back on the way down) her white knuckles clutching the back of her son's seat. She managed to survive it and my ropiest landing ever.

Back at base I was kept high and thrown a threshold base into the bargin. The subsequent slowing down and getting down produced another couple of white knuckle moments for her. Despite this she appeared at the door a few hours later, with that silly grin on her face, to let me know how much she enjoyed the new experience.

So stress or not, I don't cut your passenger too much slack. My 2p worth .... unmannerly to$$er!

[Airist]

I'm with Stafford on this. If this person was a friend, the only thing that explains his attitude was pathetic macho envy. I mean, hell, if we're going to run with the stamp collection comparison: Stamps leave me cold, but if a pal has a fantastic collection and goes to a lot of trouble to show it to me, I'd show some enthusiasm, and it would only be partly fake.....

[Stafford]

Airist

Stamp Collection ? Is that the best comparison you can come up with ? What colour is your Kagool ?:p :p :8

[Gertrude the Wombat]

After all, would we get excited at going to a stamp collectors convention? Er some people do go to such things you know ... well, about once every twenty years in my case actually, not quite time for the next one yet.

[stiknruda]

I take quite a few non-flyers flying and I always get a reaction:

generally it is - wow, I now know why you love it so much, what an experience, that upside down stuff is so weird!

or occassionally, "I'm really glad that we did it but next time take my sister".

I do have two rules and although generous with my invites (I pay) I assess the suitability of the pax before I offer. The second rule is that those that I have invited are given 3 opportunities to come flying. If they've turned down 3 trips because of personal circumstances, then they really weren't that keen at all!


Stik

[1McLay]

Penguina,

I would come flying to France with you any day, and show you my appreciation too!

:p

[Lister Noble]

Stik,you are indeed very generous and it certainly got a big "Wow!" from me.
Talk to you later about this evening.
Lister:D

[Irv]

Aussie Andy:
3rd possibility to add to your two:
Been offered a large sum to be a 'mule' that day...

[mazzy1026]

if a pal has a fantastic collection and goes to a lot of trouble to show it to me, I'd show some enthusiasm
Exactly ;)

My experience as a stude of others attitude, is that there are generally two types of people when it comes to flying:

1) Those who are very excited about the prospect of taking the skies in one of those "little plane thingies" and would love to come flying and;

2) Those who generally show no interest at all (which is fine by me).

I reckon there will be a third though, which will be those who have said they would love to go flying, but never do.

Oh and I hate it when people say "I would come flying with you but I would rather you have some more experience first" :mad:

[Penguina]

Thanks to flower, 1Mclay & all; good to have a bit of solidarity from the 'right sort'! :)

mazzy, I know where you're coming from and no doubt an original 19th century penny black or whatever is a fascinating historical artefact, but... I'm sorry! The boringness of most people just astounds me! They would rather be lurking around getting all excited over a new series of ER or a day's shopping in the high street when it is possible for most people (medical permitting) to fly! People just don't want to be different.

So while I have to accept on the evidence that you're right, I will never, never understand it! :confused:

But I still maintain that in the case of my 'friend', I'm liking Aussie Andy, Stafford and 18greens hypotheses the most... :p

[Windy Militant]

A slight Twist on the macho male thing. I've been helping with the PFA Young Eagles/Aviator experience flights for a few years now and I've noticed that there's a big difference in the way the Boys and Girls react.
The Girls are very open about the whole thing. Most enjoy the experience and let the world and his wife know about it, a few are scared and therefore are a bit diffident but do show proper gratitude.
The Boys all try to act cool 'n' hard so apart from the poor unfortunates who get airsick and get the living sh*t ripped out of them by the rest there's very little response just grunts and incoherent mumblings.
This has led to a number of pilots saying stuff the ungrateful little sods I'm not doing that again.
However it transpires that on the ride home in the minibus the general and fairly loud concensus of opinion is that it was really cool. Apparently showning enthusiasm for an organised activity in front of the olds is not the done thing.
There are exceptions though, we've run a few scout camps and them little beggers have no qualms about showing their enthusiasm both boys and girls.

Mind you, the if ain't on telly it aint real factor seems to be quite prevalent these days!

[Audio]

during my training (still going on atm) i had someone ask me 3 times if they could come up, so after great expence, i managed to talk my instructor to all someone to come up for a lesson. (a lesson where its safe or easy to have someone in the back), and even arranged a good time, all they had to pay was a £10 insurence thing, which they said no problem to. the day came, and they said, na i cant afford the £10 this time, and dont really want to pay £10 to go.

(i was thinking i told you weeks ago you would have to pay this, and you still wanted to come)

i mean i was paying £140 for the lesson, which i made at a time more to suit them, and had arranged a lesson that would allow them up in the back.

needless to say, even when they asked again i just said no.

[Penguina]

Audio, that sounds particularly infuriating!

[strafer]

Penguina - get him to take you along to something he likes doing (even if it's only popping down to the local Taj Mahal).

Get him to pay for everything, then moan your t**s off for the entire time.

Revenge is a dish best served cold - unlike lamb madras.

[dublinpilot]

Pen,

That's terrible. When you go to the effort of bring someone flying, then they should should some appreciation for your efforts, even if it turns out not to be something that they enjoy.

When you actually cover the full costs of the outing, given the very expensive nature of flying, then if they don't really enjoy the experience, good manners dictates that they should fake the excitement! :rolleyes: The appreciation of course should not require any faking! ;)

If it's any consolation, I really enjoyed our day flying together! It was great fun, and I learnt a lot too :cool:

dp

[rans6andrew]

When I got my licence my father expressed an interest in flying with me. It was quite a while before I was ready, the weather was good (at both Brimpton, where I am based, and Leicester where he lives), my aircraft was serviceable and my father was available all on the same day. Anyway, I flew up to Leicester and took him bimbling around places he would know from the ground. We overflew places he used to live or work, places we used to go to walk when was young etc and were airborn for about an hour. I offered to let him have the controls but he was too busy looking at things that you would never notice when on the ground. When we landed back at Leicester I could see by the big grin that he had enjoyed it. He didn't need to say anything.

A couple of months later my sister let slip the fact that my father is having flying lessons! He is also talking about building an aircraft from a kit. Not bad for a 74 year old. I wonder why he didn't do it sooner.

Andrew

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just a passing thought.

Twice I can recall taking up a pax who passed virtually no comment about it, but later I heard them enthusing greatly at anybody who'd listen about how great it was. I think that in each case they were so overwhelmed by the experience they couldn't actually express themselves at the time. I think that having become familiar with and comfortable in the airborne environment we tend sometimes to forget how special it can be to somebody unused to it.

G

[flyingfriday]

Penguina ..

Well what can I say ! I can perfectly understand your frustration
especially as there certainly was a cost to your goodself..
I bet this miserable sod has a real boring job ,something in the construction of software for papermills I would wager ! - There are those that would show their heartfelt gratitude of flying with
you at any time and treat you to a cuppa afterwards or even a night in a country hotel I should'nt wonder ! (although I'd want more than a slice of granary bread and a banana- for breakfast that is ) I would just ADORE the thought of being even asked to go flying with you !

I hope you've thawed our and caught up on the shut eye .

FFRIDAY

PS I have an asian grooved marrow and a couple of pomegranites

ready for you .....

[Penguina]

Don't worry ppruners, he's not a dangerous internet nutter...





... he's just an ordinary dangerous nutter! ;)

dublinpilot:

I also enjoyed our day and also learnt loads from you - like, how to navigate in places like the Republic of Ireland and East Anglia and how to fly a proper deadside join without pussy-footing around in a girly manner such as I do! :)

strafer:

I like it! Also like the 'fainting fit' and 'unusual attitude' approaches mentioned earlier on! :E

[Dude~]

I absolutely agree with Genghis. I took a uni friend up once and he was very quiet and relaxed, in fact he dozed off during a one hour flight while I was having fun in a near new DR400. He didn't show much emotion on the ground afterwards either, but ever since then he says how much he enjoyed it and tells people about it when we are in the pub together. He can't be just saying that eiher because he came up again and often asks me if I have a spare seat going.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

...boring job ,something in the construction of software for papermills... Nah, writing software that is going to throw very large pieces of metal about is not boring, particularly if you work for the sort of organisation which makes the programmer stand in front of the machine the first time they turn it on. (Writing software to calculate salesmen's bonuses, now that's boring.)

[Audio]

(Writing software to calculate salesmen's bonuses, now that's boring.)

hey thanks for that :P

[TotalBeginner]

My best friend and I have always loved aircraft. And while I was learning to fly we'd often talk about where I was going to take him on his first flight. When that day came he was really excited, he seemed to really enjoy it and he was very grateful afterwards.

Since then I've offered to take him on numerous occasions but he always seems to have an excuse and some of them are pretty lame. e.g. I'd love to come flying but 9.00am is a bit early for me.

I've always wondered what went wrong on that day. Is he afraid of flying? Doesn't he trust me? Does he think that I'm a bad pilot?

Last week we were chatting about our favourite subject (flying) and I decided it was time to find out what went wrong and why he wasn't very keen on coming with me when I fly.

After a while he admitted that he found it upsetting. He said that he'd always wanted to be a pilot but he couldn't afford it and didn't think he had the ability. He said that it was all he could think about for weeks afterwards and he decided that it was a dream that he was going to have to forget about.

I've tried to persuade him that he is more than capable, and that I'll support him and do as much as I can to help him if he wants to go down the PPL route, but to no avail.

I feel really guilty that I've somehow turned him against something that he loves so much. It's crazy because I know it's something that he would be really good at.

[Whirlybird]

Twice I can recall taking up a pax who passed virtually no comment about it, but later I heard them enthusing greatly at anybody who'd listen about how great it was.

Good point. I took up a whole family once, one at a time, in the R22. Mum and dad loved it, and said so. Young son, usually quite talkative, said not a word, during or after flight. But according to his mum, he didn't stop talking about it for the next week!

Occasionally the same sort of thing happens on trial lessons; students are so overwhelmed they can't say anything; they just come down with an ear to ear grin on their faces.

So, Penguina, maybe you should ask your ungrateful pax how he felt about the flight now it's all over.

[mad_jock]

Total why don't you take your m8 down to the local gliding club.

Its bloody great fun and alot cheaper than SEP.

And watch it its not as easy as you might think. And you never know you might end up driving the tug as well.

[dublinpilot]

I once had the opposite problem! A neighbour had asked me to bring him for a flight sometime, so one day when I had a spare seat, I asked him to come along.

In the car on the way over to the airport, he was so excited, he talked incessantly, about how excited he was, how greatful he was, how he once knew someone who brought him flying years ago, how he used to work in the army around the airplanes, how he had eggs for breakfast, how he liked his new car……..He never stopped for breaths, and never let me get a word in edgeways! My head was already hurting by the time we got to the airport! At least he was excited, and grateful!

When I was about to do my walk around, I told him I needed him to be quiet for a few minutes, as I needed to concentrate on this, as it was important. But what I really needed was just to be able to enjoy a bit of silence for a minute! He told me how he understood this was really important, and how he wouldn’t disturb me at all when I was doing my walk around, how he wasn’t going to be any trouble, how he’d do exactly as I told him, how greatful he was that I was bring him, how excited he was……..the whole time. God my head is hurting again just thinking about it!

In fairness he did shut up when ATC spoke, and when I forcefully told him that I needed to speak to ATC, but other than that he pretty much spoke non-stop!

Well at least I know how excited he was, and how grateful, but I’ve managed to avoid bringing him flying again! Just thinking about it again makes my head hurt. I think I need an asprin!

dp

[TotalBeginner]

Thanks mad_jock!

That's a fantastic idea!!!

[Dude~]

I had a REALLY ungrateful pax once, and to think I even paid him £637 just to sit next to me and not say anything. And he hardly smiled. No hang on, I paid him twice! Once for the CPL and once for the IR!:p

[Piltdown Man]

Don't equate money spent with satisfaction, try buying toys for children. They prefer the boxes and the paper. And when you persuade someone to go flying, why should they enjoy it? I personally don't like knocking holes in the sky in bug smashers but give me a high performance glider (and a good soaring day) or something like a Pitts or a Stampe and the answer would be different. And, like your friend, I also would would prefer a few more hours in bed and a trip to the pub and as for sitting next to someone doing circuits... Somebody needs to change their medication. But that's my opinion, everybody is cut differently.

[Penguina]

OK, Piltdown, that's your opinion then, but

a) my friend asked me for this flight, he wasn't coerced and

b) irrespective of whether or not he was disappointed by the experience, the fact that I put money and effort into the thing means that he should have tried to participate a little in my opinion.

However, I will remember not to take you flying as I clearly could not impress you.

That said, I'm beginning to think I was a bit harsh before. It's possible he found something in my manner a bit offputting and communications broke down. Also, he did offer me a drink, although as soon as a fellow club member decided to buy a round backed down from that offer. And he did offer me lunch half-heartedly, but agreed very readily not to bother when I said I didn't expect lunch for a little flight like that (more to be rid of him than anything!).

[oscarmike]

at the other end of the scale..........

Decided to go flying in our Jodel yesterday, and completely by chance, our son turned up at the airfield complete with his new Polish girlfriend (an absolute stunner to boot) who we were duly introduced to.

She showed great interest as I did the walk around and preflight checks, so I said "Would you fancy going up for 10 minutes?"

She nodded shyly, and installed herself in the right hand seat.

I did the preflight passenger brief, explaining carefully and slowly as her English was somewhat limited.

We did a brief local flight out over our home town pointing out local landmarks and returned about 20 minutes later. The whole time she didn't say a word.

We landed and taxied back to the hangar, and I did the shutdown. I turned to her and said "Did you enjoy that?" at which point she flung her arms round my kneck and planted several enthusiastic kisses on both cheeks much to the bemusement of the other pilots in the vicinity!

I think we have a new convert........... :D

[mad_jock]

And a reputation for being a dirty auld bugger.

[oscarmike]

Hey....... less of the auld please.......... :D

[c_jephcott]

I have taken quite a few friends up in my time. The best person I have ever flown with was my long standing best mate - we're the same age, both PPLs with roughly the same number of hours. Of course, with this, we both knew exactly what we were doing and it made it a lot better.

I have taken a few select friends up from university and school though - during my first year here at Uni, I surprised quite a few people by taking them up for flights. Most people would talk a lot in the ground, but when they were up in the air, they would totally shut up. Maybe as a mixture of fear and nerves and not wanting to interfere with anything that I was doing. However, pointing out landmarks and various other things from the air always unfroze them to a certain extent. However, my very best mate at uni, a girl called Charlotte, was taken up for an hour and a half flight from Leicester and out along the Wash and back in a C152 (in those days I was a C152 lad!). The best part about the entire thing was that although she totally enjoyed it, she was so quiet throughout the entire thing, and during the landing, she couldn't even look. I glanced across and found her covering her eyes. But anyway, we did one of my best landings to date (a really smooth greaser) back into Leicester, and the second we were on the ground, then I could not shut her up.

But the most stupid remark I've ever heard belonged to my Aunt. For all those who are/were familiar with 25/07 at Sibson, there are a vast clump of quite tall trees at the 07 end. Anyway, on a hot, humid and beautiful summers day with no wind, we took off in a tired out old Cessna. Or at least, we nearly took off. At about 50 feet, the Stall warner suddenly went off and the plane refused to climb. Seeing the impending doom of the trees up ahead, I did the most beautifully coordinated shallow left bank I could ever do, with the stall warner still going, and thankfully found the gap in the trees and the farmhouse. So there I was, with sweat pouring down my face, swearing and cursing and preparing to perform a forced landing if needed as the plane really wouldn't climb, when my 75 year old Aunt turned to me and said "My, isn't this really wonderful?"

[Penguina]

:) and :eek:

Yes, isn't it odd how non-pilot pax don't seem to notice when things are really going pear-shaped and come to entirely the wrong conclusions about things that are normal?!

[EGBKFLYER]

CJ - haven't been to Sibson for a while? 25/07 is now 24/06, so the end now aims at your life-saving gap! You should fly in again soon....

Apologies for the thread creep.

[c_jephcott]

Oh I am always there, thankfully the 24/06 does take the plane quite nicely through the gap in the trees!

It's where I do all of my flying, so I am always dropping in!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Now I know why my stepson never brings his girlfriends to meet us.

G

[BeechNut]

With 100LL running around $1.51/liter around here, and with my Sundowner quaffing 40 liters/hour of the precious stuff, IMHO gratitude = a little help with the fuel bill.

Oddly, the people you actually would be happy to bring up for FREE just because they're poor, your best buddy, or cute/sexy/etc, are always too happy to chip in for fuel no matter how hard you insist they needn't bother, you took them up for the pleasure of their company.

On the other hand, my PITA brother-in-law, and HIS friends, whom my wife (who is his sister) insists I take up, doesn't even as much as say thank you, let alone part with his money.

I've long given up on using flying to impress people. Which is why I bought a two-seater (Beech Skipper) and put the Sundowner up for sale. I'd just as soon go flying with another flying buddy. My favourite is an 82-y.o. war veteran (ex-Halifax flight engineer), who is also a PPL (and still has a valid medical!). I don't ask him for money; I feel he repaid me enough before I was born, but he always is extremely grateful for the ride. And since he was instrument-rated, a flight with him usually ends up with a practice approach, or practicing holds somewhere. Good fun and good experience for me (not IR, but I am night rated). The guy is sharper at 82 than I am most days at 47...

Mike

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Re. Sibson - everytime I'm there the Cub's been making that gap just to the left of the trees more and more homely - thank goodness for the impending cold days I say!

Cheers, Jack.

[TheBeeKeeper]

Before getting my PPL I flew gliders, flew with many people but none as unimpressed as my ex-wife (AIDS - Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome). Took her flying in a glider, unimpressed. Got someone else to take her flying in the motor glider, unimpressed. Finally, got the CFI to take her on an aerotow to 3000ft for an aerobatics sequence which culminated in a 150kt beat up (Practise Competition Finish as he preffered to call them) down the runway at about 5ft, pull up chandelle and land..... the comment from the front seat, well it didn't feel that fast!!!

Just remember that people who don't like aviation in it's many forms.... are not REAL people.

TBK