Bell 430

[LBKDRIVER]

The EMS program I work for is in the market for a pair of new helicopters. We are looking at B430's, but it seems their hot weather performance drops off sharply. Our base elevation is 3300ft and we hit 35 to 40 degrees C in the summer. Does anyone have experience with 430's? What kind of EMS interiors are available? Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
Nick

[Bruce Laurin]

Hi, My name is Bruce Laurin, I am a senior production test pilot with Bell Helicopter in Montreal Quebec. My specialty is the Bell 430 and I have had the opportunity to operate the 430 in the middle east at temp up to +50C. I can assure you that the aircraft is quite a good performer at these excsssive temp. While I was posted in the country of Bahrain for 3 month the OAT never went below +40C day or night. We had no problems at all with regards to hot climate ops. For any more detailed info call me at
450-437-6045
Bruce Laurin BHTC

[whatsarunway]

Compare the 430 with the ec155,
you may be surprised , that is unless you are closed off to anything other than bell

dont be

[212man]

Whatsarunway

I'm (genuinely)interested to know more about the 155, do you have personal experience of it?

Curious response after the one above: the 155's upper operating limit for OAT is 40 C at sea level, wouldn't be too clever in the Middle East then?




------------------
Another day in paradise

[Bruce Laurin]

Actually the 430 is in the intermediate category, the EC 155 is in the medium category so is a bit difficult to compare them but I looked up the numbers for fun.

EC 155 IGE Hover ceiling is 6210 ft.
OGE Hover ceiling is 2800 ft.

Bell 430 IGE Hover ceiling is 11700 ft.
OGE Hover ceiling is 6200 ft.

All the above at max. gross of course.

[whatsarunway]

max auw of 155 is higher than 430 holds more is quicker and looks better, we have one orderd for next january with a view to ems ops but charter initaly. It is a super heli but so is the 430 , not a lot in it really but for us , the fact you can fit 12 in the back and the biggest baggage hold in its class took the biscuit.

very automated cockpit not much to flying it really and its single ifr with pretty good cat a performance even at the max auw ,

you owe it to yourself to have a go.

[212man]

Whatsarunway,
can you e-mail me? I'd like to discuss the 155 more. I've had a go, and may well be operating the thing soon.

Thanks.

------------------
Another day in paradise

[whatsarunway]

done

[Pac Rotors]

Wondering if there are any Bell 430 pilots out there. I heard that there is a problem with the software on it related to the OEI temp limits and the starting temp limits. I was told that if it is a hot day it can set off the M/OEI and a maintenance type has to come back and reset it even though there has been no exceedances.

Can anyone shed some light on this.

[CTD]

The M/OEI will trigger a fault if the 'OEI MGT limit' is exceeded on start. The aircraft will start properly, and the abort function will still work (and work well) using the START limits.

Two methods of dealing with this for now.....vent the engine before starting if residual is high...
or have maintenance erase the fault code after. It is a nuisance code, and flight with it annunciated is not an issue, provided the pilot checks the exceedance and verifies that it is only the OEI limits that have been busted.

Next software revision addresses this. Hope this answers your question.

[Head Turner]

I would very much appreciate some advice on the Bell 430 from you experienced guys. Operation would be primarily be in UK.

It's a pretty looking craft but I need to know if it's characteristics;-
range and cabin loading with full fuel;- range with full complement of passengers and baggage bay loaded to limits;- good points;- bad points;- what are the most annoying snags;-

Your comments please.

[Shawn Coyle]

I assume you would want to operate in Category A. One of the UK requirements is that you train and demonstrate Category A with your pilots.
Unless things have changed drastically, there is no way to do this in the real aircraft. The engines have 30" and 2 min One Engine Inoperative Ratings, and the certification rules require that these ratings only be used in a real emergency. Training does not constitute an emergency. Nearly every other helicopter with these ratings incorporates a training mode switch to make the FADEC simulate the engine failure condition. Not the Bell 430.
If you simulate engine failures by retarding a throttle you are doing two things - a) violating the flight manual limitations, and b) putting the engine into an area that will potentially cost you thousands of dollars per second of operation - the engines have very short life in the 30" rating (total of 2 to 4 minutes) before they have to be removed for overhaul.
And I don't believe the CAA has accepted the only Bell 430 simulator (in Fort Worth) for Category A training - could be wrong on this.
So, you could buy the 430 but not be able to operate it in the UK.
If you want to correspond about this privately, send me an email off line.

[Head Turner]

The 430 would most likely be operated on the private Category.
However, I note your very worthwhile concern of the engine handling/training scenario. As It was also likely to participate in public transport ops, your comments have been passed to potential owner.

[Rotorbike]

The following is a press release from the FlightSafety website from 2002:

EUROPE'S JAA APPROVES FLIGHTSAFETY BELL CENTER'S BELL 430 TRAINING PROGRAMS

May 13, 2002

FlightSafety's Bell Learning Center in Fort Worth, Texas, has received the approval of the European Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) for its Bell 430 helicopter pilot training programs.

This is the JAA's first helicopter certification outside Europe. The center provides fully approved training for Europeans with its JAA qualified instructors, examiners, and courseware.

FlightSafety is the official factory-approved training organization for Bell Helicopter Textron multi-engine aircraft. The FlightSafety center is located adjacent to the Bell manufacturing facility at Fort Worth, Texas. The center's equipment includes advanced full flight simulators for Bell's 222, 430, 212 and 412 helicopters. JAA certification for 212, 222, and 412 type training is expected during the summer.

Established over 50 years ago, FlightSafety is America's most experienced and diverse aviation training organization. The company is headquartered at New York's LaGuardia Airport.

[Shawn Coyle]

Rotorbike:
Most importantly, does this include approval to do Category A training?
I think that would also be subject to individual authority approval.

[Helipolarbear]

Was lucky enough to do the transition on the actual Olympic B430 @ Bell Factory. The sim wasn't built! Did full autos, stuck pedals and every other profile the Instructor could throw at us.
Great machine. Cat A.....well, depends how much you weigh and a string of other factors. With the exception of flight in Unstable Air mass, the heli operates very well. Has the ability to pick up 9 pax and still fly for an hour!!!! Very smooth rotor system..called ' Soft-in-Plane'....another Yankee invention!!! Does not have parallel SCAS, rather primary and secondary. T/R is the exact same as the B222 circa 1979/80 technology!!!! But then thats Bell, little improvements at a time! Costs too much to do otherwise!
:p

[Head Turner]

Do I assume from the few replies that the 430 is not a popular choice of light/medium helicopter and there are few ppruners who fly them.
Thanks those who have responded.

[Shawn Coyle]

It's not that it's unpopular, but the UK / European market, where the machine would appear to be a natural, shrank considerably when the lack of training mode and attendent Category A operational approval became evident. The helicopter was accepted by the CAA as far as type certification was concerned, but not for operations, because you can't do on-site training with it.
Wasn't there a UK time-share operation that was going to use the machines? What happened to that?
Most other operators seem pretty happy with it. It is a smooth, reasonably fast machine, and flies pretty well. But like all new machines, it ain't cheap.
The real competition for the EMS market is a used Bell 222 - carries about the same load, also reasonably smooth, and much, much cheaper.

[CVR]

HEAD TURNER,


I'VE BEEN OPERATING THE BELL 430 FOR ABOUT 7 YEARS NOW AND THE 222 FOR ALMOST 20 YEARS. THE 222 WAS A VERY RELIABLE MACHINE, THE ENGINES ARE A LITTLE SOFT AND THE WIRING ON THE ELECTRICS ISN'T THAT GOOD. LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE, TREAT IT WITH CARE AND IT WILL LOOK AFTER YOU.
WITH REGARD THE 430, WE TOOK DELIVERY IN 1997 AND AS IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST WE HAD A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THE IIDS AND EFIS SCREENS. THERE WERE ALSO PROBLEMS WITH THE BATTERY BEING WEAK. THEY THANKFULLY HAVE BEEN SORTED OUT. DEPENDING ON THE INTERIOR FIT THAT YOU PICK ( SOUND PROOFING OR LIMO WINDOW) WILL PLAY A BIG PART ON WHAT YOU CAN LIFT, OUR MACHINE 6345 LBS AND WE HAVE THE BASIC INTERIOR. MAX GROSS IS 9300 LBS. THE AIRCRAFT IS CERTIFIED CAT A IN THE U.S.A. ONLY WHEN THE CAT A KIT IS INSTALLED.

HOPE THIS HAS BEEN OF SOME HELP.............
:ok:

[MPR]

Head Turner,

might be worth giving Alan Mann's a call, they maintain a 430 on behalf of a middle eastern businessman in the UK - VP-BKQ.

Pilot most of the time is well known in the UK trade, he may be willing to share his experience of the past 5+ years of operating a 430 in the UK.

[Head Turner]

Thanks everyone we have taken your points and will review the project.

[MPR]

Your 430 project wouldn't be to replace a 119 would it?

PM me if you don't want to broadcast.

[C4]

Why for a Cat A takeoff (Bell 430), is it required to beep the rotor speed up to 105%???

Does it enhance the takeoff performance or is it just for when the engine fails.

Also why is it limited in the RFM to Cat A takeoffs only?? Why not use it for all takeoffs???

[MightyGem]

If it works the same as in the EC135 with the T2 engines, then it puts extra kinetic energy into the rotor system for use in the event of an engine failure on take off/landing.

However, it does increase the N2 cycle count(on the 135), hence we are restricted to using it only on helipad or full Cat A take offs/landings.

[Shawn Coyle]

The reason for beeping to 105% is for additional energy, and also to improve the rotor efficiency following the engine failure. In the emergency procedure section of the Cat A procedure for engine failure after takeoff from an elevated helipad, there are words to the effect that 'do not lower collective. when following the limitations of weight, etc. for this procedure, the same collective position as used for the departure will ensure the rotor does not droop below limits.'

[C4]

Shawn, you stated "The reason for beeping to 105% is for additional energy"...

Are we talking additional energy during a normal (not Cat A) takeoff???
We have an ongoing discussion as to the difference in performance in a takeoff at max gross using 100% Nr or using 105% Nr. Bearing in mind this is not cat A.
Is there any benefit in performance when beeping Rrpm up for takeoff??

[NickLappos]

The 105 % is nice in case of the engine failure, where that energy can be extracted as the rotor droops just after the failure. For the few seconds, it can be like having 10 to 20% more power on the remaining engine, a nice power boost!

If the engine does not quit, and the rotor does not droop, the extra rpm is not very useful, and might actually hurt climb performance a bit, as the rotor might be less efficient at higher rpm (for the typical helicopter.)

Cat A's are the most performance critical takeoff, and the only one we spend a lot of time on, so the rpm boost is usually specified only for the Cat A.

[Shawn Coyle]

c4 -
Nick has answered the question.
Not a bad question though- sort of lateral thinking that we need.

Kind of like the engine manufacturer that has it's turbine engines approved for single engine fixed wing IFR who stated 'We inspect all those engines twice" - and was asked - "why not inspect all your engines twice???"
Look of wonder crossed his face....

[JimL]

Not exactly on the thread but here was a saying often used when I was operating in the North Sea:

How can a company afford to do something twice when it cannot afford to do it correctly?

[407 too]

i realize most 430's in the states are used for EMS, but are there any operators who have slung loads with the 430 ??

if so, and you used a cargo mirror, was it mouted in std.config (viewed through chin bubble)?? i know that what the 430 has cannot really be called a chin bubble, hence my curiosity as to mirror location :confused:

[Aesir]

I have done a lot of sling work with the Bell 222.

The mirror is located at the standard location viewed through the chin bubble. Its adjustable up/down from the cockpit.

I liked slinging with the B222, very restricted visibility, good ground crew with radio was great help. But you get used to it so unaided slinging was quite fun too.

I needed to get used to having the cargo hook 3 meters behind me, even further 30cm back in the B430.

[helmet fire]

Done a search for this already, and there is lots of good info out there, but I was wondering if any Bell 222/430 gurus could give me a quick heads up on the various models.

First there was the Bell 222 A.

What did they change to make the 222 B?

Then what did they change to make the 222 UT?

Then the 222 SP?

Then the 230?

Then the 430?

Is this the right progression? Can any 222, 230, 430 be retro fitted with skids as an STC or did it have to come from the factory like that?
Can the 222 A be made into a B or UT?
Can the 222 B or UT be made into an SP?
Does the SP and 230 really outperform the 222B and UT?
Can a 222 be made into a 230?

For interest only! Sexy jets, and I have always wanted to fly one.

[Ian Corrigible]

Okay, I'll bite:

222 – Introduced in 1980, Lycoming LTS101-650C-2/C-3 donks. Later referred to unofficially as the 222A
222B – Introduced in 1980, uprated LTS101-750C-1 donks, M/R diameter increased by 2¼ ft
222UT – Introduced in 1983, variant of 222B with skid-gear and increased fuel capacity (~60 gal, as a result of the elimination of the retractable gear, a benefit shared with the 230UT and 430UT)
222SP – Introduced in 1988, a handful of Allison 250-C30G conversions undertaken by Heli-Air
230 – Introduced in 1992, development of 230 with 250-C30Gs, liquid inertia vibration elimination (LIVE) system, new high-inertia rotor blades, optional EAPS, simplified electronic systems, and dual hydraulic/electrical/fuel systems; offered with retractable gear or skids (230UT)
430 – Introduced in 1996, featured the four-blade model 680 rotor system, stretched fuselage and Allison 250-C40s; offered with retractable gear or skids (430UT)

The 222SP and 230 were reported to be 5 kts quicker than the 222B in the cruise, with the skid-equipped UT models losing 5-10 kts.

Though most of the 222SP conversions were the underpowered A models, AFAIK at least one EMS aircraft still flying was a 222B conversion.

I believe that the skid conversions were factory-options only, but can’t give you a definitive answer on that.

I/C

[chuckolamofola]

I've put what I know in your text below:
First there was the Bell 222 A.
What did they change to make the 222 B?
The difference between the A and B is the engine and electrical. The B model has the LTS-101-750 vice the A's -650 engine. There was also some changes to the electrical bus.
Then what did they change to make the 222 UT?
The 222UT removes the wheeled landing gear and replaces it with skids. There is also changes made to the electrical system and I also believe this model can fly SPIFR without a SAS system. It also comes standard with the utility interior.
Then the 222 SP?
The 222SP is an A model that has the LST-101 engine removed and replaced with an RR/Allison 250-C30 engine installed. This was done by a third party outside of Bell under an STC
Then the 230?
The 230 is Bell's answer to replacing the LTS-101 with the RR/Allison C30
Then the 430?
Bell added the 4 bladed rotor and more electrical improvements and I think the cabin has a slight stretch.
Is this the right progression? Can any 222, 230, 430 be retro fitted with skids
as an STC or did it have to come from the factory like that?
There may be a way to change from wheeled to skids but most come from the facory that way. I think the cost to do so would be too high though.
Can the 222 A be made into a B or UT?
No, why would you?
Can the 222 B or UT be made into an SP?
Yes, reference STC SH7853SW
Does the SP and 230 really outperform the 222B and UT?
Can a 222 be made into a 230?
No, but you can put the 230's engine in the 222

[trackdirect]

The 222UT has a totally DC electrical system wheras the A/B have AC and DC systems, makes the UT a much simpler system.
UTs have more fuel load, bigger wing tanks due to no landing gear in there.
The 430 is a stretched 222, has a plug of about 18 inches, not a great deal has changed in the airframe department, mainly electrics and avionics.
430 has IIDS and EFIS and autopilot as standard so lots of telly screens to look at, but there are 3x 430s that came out with standard flight instruments, no autopilot in these ones only scas and basic attitude hold.
(autopilot interfaces with the EFIS).
222 seats pilot and 9 Pax, 430 seats the same but with a tiny bit more room or there is an option for 10 pax config on the 430.
The 222 flies very much like a big longranger but the 430 is something totally different, No vibration at all from take off and even through translation amazingly smooth (due to the LIVE mounts on the transmission). Feels more like a jet than a helicopter.

Hope that helps a bit Helmet fire.
:ok:

[helmet fire]

Thanks heaps guys, thats fantastic.

Three last ones: Does the SP and 230 really outperform the 222B and UT?
and
Is the LIVE system fitted to both the 230 and the 430?
and
How many 230 UT were there? I have only ever seen wheeled 230s.

[Jed A1]

At present there appears to be the following numbers of 222/230's on the worldwide civil registers;

222 - 46
222A - 7
222B - 23
222U - 3
222UT - 50
230 - 24
430 - 82

Therefore no 230UT's

So, I ask what is 222U?

[widgeon]

Why was the 430 not that succesful ? , is it a competitor to the S76 , EC155 .
What is the range of a std 430 ?.

I guess the fuselage jigs all left Fleet last year bound for China.

Closest is the 365N3 as far as I can see

[Ian Corrigible]

You're quite right, we overlooked the 222UT.

Some skid-equipped examples:

222
http://www.saintalphonsus.org/images/bell222_b.jpg
Saint Alphonsus Life Flight

http://alecbuck.com/airambulance/mediagallery/mediaobjects/disp/e/e0e8efbcf752162a943d5659dd4496ef.jpg
Methodist Hospital CareFlite


222SP
http://www.helispot.com/images/00900.jpg
Mercy Air


230
http://alecbuck.com/airambulance/mediagallery/mediaobjects/disp/8/8ecae2caf4dd3436afb5a5f370efda34.jpg
Life Flight Network

http://alecbuck.com/airambulance/mediagallery/mediaobjects/disp/c/c1700c052417a58dcd0f62cb9175c622.jpg
Palmetto Health Richland

I/C

[trackdirect]

http://www.avta.com.au/images/Gallery/Whitsundays/HellicopterHeartReef.jpg

http://www.avta.com.au/images/Gallery/Whitsundays/avta067.jpg

[bellfest]

THAT'S THE SHOT!

[SMOUC]

That is the shot ol' fella!!!

[helmet fire]

Thanks for the info guys, and the great shots.

Does anyone know if it is possible to convert a wheeled 230 into a UT?

Widgeon: I think the 430 was somewhere between the EC145 and 155. Dont know why it wasn't so successful.

[rotorrookie]

In the last few years, Bell Helicopter has received reports of main transmission generating metal particles. Subsequent transmission teardown revealed significant mechanical damage to the sungear and planetary pinion gears.
Several parts were received at Bell for evaluation but none of these parts revealed physical or material inconsistencies.
Further investigation revealed that although the aircraft may be operating within the limits listed in the current flight manual, damage to the transmission planetary pinion gears and mating gears may occur due to excessive mast bending which causes planetary system misalignment.

This bulletin introduces a revision to the Flight Manual which includes a revised VNE airspeed limits decal. In addition, the manual also includes a revised restricted center of gravity envelope along with a secondary VNE airspeed limits decal. Airspeed limits listed on the secondary decal will apply for the duration of a flight whenever the aircraft is loaded with a C of G within the crosshatched area of the new restricted center of
gravity envelope.

Above taken from the ASB issued okt 30 2009.
Well this mean VNE down to 120kts in most cases right, which is a major input in operating theses helicopters and limiting factor:uhoh:
Would like to hear your thoughts about this, and from those who are operating 430.
Is this mast bending due to major error in the original design of this helicopter?
Has anyone here had this main-gearbox problem ?

[topik22]

Hello,
I would like to ask about some kind of problem:

on Bell 430 IIDS I can check engine history: it has Eng 1 - 618 TT, Eng 2 - 622 TT
BUT in Engine 1 or 2 logbook I can read only 440 TT each.
I would like to ask do anybody has got any info about how IIDS is counting engine TT? How I can compare that time to TT on helicopter (airframe) logbook?
I would be very gratefull for that info.
Many thanks.
Jack

[topik22]

Hello Everyone,
I would like to ask Bell 430 pilots or mechanics about XMSN OIL pressure during flights. On our Bell 430 we have around 50-51 PSI with 90-92 deg. C temp. MQ around 80%, OAT=17 deg C, Altitude <2000 ft. Is it OK in such circumstances?
I know the procedures with Low XMSN OIL pressure (below 30 PSI) and I would like to ask if it is normal on another helicopters.
Waiting for info.
Regards
Jack

[Flatdog]

I'm looking for a Bell 430 Pilot Training Manual for a convex. Can anyone perhaps help? Thanks, FD

[topik22]

Hello,
I am glad to see new Bell 430 driver:)
What kind of manual do You need? I am Polish B430 driver so maybe can help.
Greets.
Jacek

[EPacH]

Does anyone know how many "double door" EMS 430's Bell made and whether they have differing EMS kit types because of the door? Anyone know anyone with an EMS kit for sale?

[topik22]

I think most of them are in Canada and US.
Greets

[dave_skinner]

Hi, My name is Bruce Laurin, I am a senior production test pilot with Bell Helicopter in Montreal Quebec. My specialty is the Bell 430 and I have had the opportunity to operate the 430 in the middle east at temp up to +50C. I can assure you that the aircraft is quite a good performer at these excsssive temp. While I was posted in the country of Bahrain for 3 month the OAT never went below +40C day or night. We had no problems at all with regards to hot climate ops. For any more detailed info call me at
450-437-6045
Bruce Laurin BHTC

Hey Bruce, You still Around? I am new to the 430 on an EMS in the Carribean. I have a couple questions. Thx

[NorthEh]

Hey Bruce, You still Around? I am new to the 430 on an EMS in the Carribean. I have a couple questions. Thx

Bruce passed away a few years ago.