7700 - listen to the sound of real fear

[PH-UKU]

Scary MAYDAY transmission - lost in cloud. (http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/flightassist.mp3)

[Jerricho]

Wow.

That poor guy. Glad it all worked out.

Thank you PH-U.

[mad_jock]

All i can say is well done to the controller for providing such a cool calm prof help to the person.

Its an old one but its well worth making PLL students listen to this.

This guy was bloody lucky to be alive by the sounds of it. Sounds like a spin in if ever i heard it. Stall warner going gyros toppled perfect level turn in cloud going wrong.

And the boy that was speaking to him knows how to fly,prefect advice i would mind betting he was CFI as well as a ATCO.

And before you all start i have flown with quite a few ATCO's who could teach me a thing or to about flying an aircraft and they are all old school or ex UAS.

Please discuss if current training is suffcient for ATCO to deal with that call in the Uk just now.

[VC10 Rib22]

There's something about hearing a man start to scream like a girl that gives me the heebeejeebees. Top marks to the controller, I bet that was a far from normal day for him. I wonder whether that experience put the pilot off flying, or whether it encouraged him to get his IMC.

VC10 Rib22

:ooh:

[Bern Oulli]

Please discuss if current training is suffcient for ATCO to deal with that call in the Uk just now.

The short answer is "NO", IMHO. Been there and done similar - and, yes, you need to be, or have been, a PPL to be able to cope.

[Brian81]

wow. Kinda wish I hadn't listened to it just minutes before setting out to work... [gulp - in a calm way].

Thumbs up to the controllers in the clip. Apart from the callsigns, accents & phrasolgy the co-ordination &"procedures" sound pretty much like what we'd do (& what were trained to do) in the UK.

However, having said that, each emergency is very different from the last, with so many variables it would be impossible to train us for every single scenario.

We have good training & obviously we're checked out for aviation sense but we don't get fam-flights like my older colleauges did.

So; for those of us ATCOs without PPLs, all we have to go on is books and stories passed down from our more experienced colleauges.

Fam-flights are not atcos trying to get free flights, the more we all know about each others job the better.

New pilots visit the tower all the time & it helps for 2 reasons; they see a face to put the voice too which normally calms new pilots shaky r/t voice straightaway & 2) they see the equipment we use, its limitations & OUR limitations.

As an honest ATCO, Ive only ever been up in a PA28 & once upon a time a PA38. That is my extent of ACTUAL knowledge of workload, performance etc. All the rest is therorised & book-based training.

In summary, 'cus I've really gotta run to work now,

(1) Bring back fam-flights as ATCO training

(2) Come to the tower & OFFER ATCO training-flights (we dont want a ppl just a quick flight with Q & As - & if you're lucky we'll throw in a free landing fee)

(3) When you visit the tower, bring biscuits. Expecially if your visiting today between 10.30 & 18.00 ;-)

Bri.

[rej]

That sent a massive shiver down my spine. The ATCO deserves all the accolades in the world; he remained calm and offered great assistance without maxing out the pilot with autogabble - just how do you remain that calm in that situation?

There is an interesting thread under Flight Ops, Crewing and Dispatch titled ATC Fam flights..are they welcome? (sorry not sure how to link them) where some pilot from the USA (SouthwestLUV) makes some pretty damming and derogitory comments about fam flights. This is one situation where a pilot has had cause to thank ATC for helping him to be around to make the decision whether or not to fly again. Don't get me wrong, an odd fam flight will never make us ATCOs cockpit experts but the odd snippet of information gleaned from the experience will invariably sow a seed in his/her mind which might grow with experience, interest and enthusiasm and enable them provide such vital assistance one day.

Well done mate .... you ARE a star!!

[VRB03KT CAVOK]

As a flying instructor I offer students a demonstration spin after teaching them stall recovery (in VFR at about 4000').

I myself had been flying for three years before being taught how intense a spin can be.

Students generally sh*t themselves the first time and then ask to do it again once they've seen how easy it is to recover.

It's something that could save their life one day and one hell of an adrenalin rush too.

[whowhenwhy]

Well done the guy at Dodge!

We do have one group of individuals in the UK though who are trained to provide just this kind of service, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and they wouldn't have to call on the services of the local radar centre to find the aircraft either.

Distress & Diversion at West Drayton deal with similar, though not quite this bad for a while I think, incidents every day.

[BDiONU]

I was a D&D controller at ScOACC for 6 years but I have never flown an aircraft nor had I ever been taught anything about it. I'd be VERY cautious about offering advice on how to fly a plane!

What Emergency Controllers are taught is to remain calm and sound calm, to offer all assistance and help to the best of their abilities.

BD

[Farrell]

He was back in the saddle again on the same day!:p

[eastern wiseguy]

makes you wonder how he got into the situation in the first place?.

[mad_jock]

Its pretty standard Eastern with someone untrained in instrument flying. If you let a student get into clouds the good ones can last about a couple of minutes before loosing it and others it takes seconds. And the little wee ****es for kids just carry striaght on because they already have 10000 hours on MS sim and you have nag them all the time to look out the window.

They go IMC suddenly realise that they are in cloud maybe for the first time. Its alot more lumpy and they start trying to fly the machine by the seat of thier pants with no reference. Then they remember my instructor said to do a 180 and fly out. All there training will be in VFR conditions under a hood with relativly few lumps.

They start the turn and automatically pull back a bit while jiggling the controls trying to react to the turb. The stall warner goes off and they shove the stick forward and then snatch it back producing a secondary stall. They have no visual reference so don't control the yaw or worse put the wrong foot in which puts it into a spin.

The plane goes into an unusual attitude and the gyro's topple after that....

I was trying to remember what my IR instructor used to whisper all the time when I was first learning the scan.

It went along the lines of

dot to altimeter, wings to DI
level the wings
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
bring the dot to the horizon
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
set your power.
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
adjust your pitch for level
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
trim
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
FREDA check

But i am sure an IR instructor could give you a better script to use.

[eastern wiseguy]

Yep Jock ....I understand that ...but as an ATCO I wonder why they don't turn back in the first place ie don't go in there!! if you are not trained STAY OUT .

Better still ..take a train!

[HGFC1]

When you visit the tower, bring biscuits. Expecially if your visiting today between 10.30 & 18.00 ;-)
If you are Brian from EGBO then biscuits will be available on Thursday and possibly Friday next week. :ok: What remains available on Friday will all depend on how many are left after the FI's have descended on them like a plague of locusts but I'm open to bribery to save you a few. :E

[mad_jock]

We do tell them not to go in.

Its usually a head in cockpit syndrome not aviating navigating communicating. They get focused on there charts and either drift up because they are flying with out looking or ATC give them an instruction and there head goes bang and they have a complete common sense failure. Its more a failing of not being able to do 2-3 things at once. Their handeling hasn't got to the stage that their hands and feet can look after themselves ( abit like changing gear in a car)

Or what was normaly the case with my students the local mil unit decided to put them on a vector in class G airspace or a not below instruction and the silly sods excepted it. And when it was obvious that they were going to go IMC carried on anyway.

MJ

[Ozgrade3]

Just listened to the tape and it give me cold chills to listen to the fear in that guys voice.

It brought back memories of a trip many years ago I made as a freshly minted PPL flying from Sydney (Bankstown) to Coolangatter. scud running up the coast all the way to the Queensland border I ended up in cloud just north of Lismore, and Lismore is bordered to the north by 3,000ft hills. I was in IMC bigtime with no IFR rating.

Fortunately I had just completed a night VFR rating with 15hrs of real black night flying( on several cross country training flights). Two things saved me and my 3 passengers, 1 that I was quite comfortable in being able to maintain a a basic wings level attitude as well as being able to perform rate1 climbing and descending turns on instruments as was hammered into me during the NVFR Rating. 2 Being drilled to allways having an appropriate navaid tuned, in this case the Lismore NDB as well as being able to make basic ADF Intercepts.

I remember the wave of fear that overtook me when I realised I was in IMC bigtime, it's an indescribable feeling that one has to encounter to know what it's like. Once I was able to compose myself and get on the clocks I was able to do just as I had countless times in training, do a climbing 180 , get above LSALT and intercept an appropriate track inbound to Lismore on the ADF. Over Lismore I broke out of cloud and landed at Lismore to evaluate my mistake.

I am 100% sure that the NFVR training saved my bacon. Now as an Instructor I drill my students mercylessly on recoveries from unsusual attitudes both looking out the window as well as under the hood. The Oz training syllabus has several hrs reqired under the hood required before sitting the PPL flight test. I frequently do more than that with my students as well as telling them what happened to me.

[Farrell]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b140/quartermilefinal/9815l.jpg

[visibility3miles]

makes you wonder how he got into the situation in the first place?.

That can be sorted out later. The most important thing is that the controller helped the pilot sort out the situation AS IT WAS OCCURRING.

Cast stones later. Any landing you (and everyone else) can walk away from is a good landing.

Congrats to the ATC.

[Turn It Off]

Please discuss if current training is suffcient for ATCO to deal with that call in the Uk just now.

I agree with Bern Oulli. Simply No, I wouldn't be able to offer advice like that. Now I have heard the advice I will remember it. Maybe I would call the Flying CLub across the runway and ask them to listen in and offer me advice on the telephone? Maybe I wouldn't have time to do that.

Hopefully someone in a position that can, will listen to that recording and SERIOUSLY consider reintroducing a PPL to NATS Training, or at least reintroduce the assited flying scheme.

TIO

[BDiONU]

I have some very serious concerns about even the thought that because an ATCO might have a PPL he/she could/would take it upon themselves to offer a pilot instruction on how to fly the aircraft!
Unless you get to instructor level and are able to maintain that level of competency then I suspect you might well do more harm than good (especially if you're not familiar with the aircraft type). And how far do you go? Single engine? Twin? Jet? Multi jet?

What do pilots think about this 'idea'?

My view, as someone who has handled dozens of 'emergencies' as an ATCO, is that the pilot should be sufficiently trained to fly solo before being let loose. ATC can (and do) help when they get lost or suffer other 'emergencies' but not to the extent of attempting to offer basic flying skills advice. I could easily imagine being sued for giving the wrong advice. Whereas I have no problem in contemplating any sort of prosecution for doing my professional job of controlling aircraft and giving assistance. I think assistance in flying the aircraft is WELL outside of the scope of ATC.

BD

[DC10RealMan]

In listening to this tape, how do we know that the ATC Specialists advice was indeed correct?. If this aircraft had crashed would the ATC Specialist be sued for giving out this "advice"?. If this had happen in the UK would NATS protect its employees in court from subsequent legal action?. I think that we all know the answers to these questions. I think that it is in all our natures to try to help as much as possible a pilot in distress, particularly one as harrowing as this recording, but there are limits to our actions and responsibilities. I see no reason why ATCOs at the larger centres should have flight training as they do not deal with light aircraft, but the FISOs at ATC Centres should have flight training as a matter of course as they are more likely to deal with this kind of scenario.

[Jerricho]

If I may direct a question in response to your last sentence DC10RealMan, what about approach controllers?

[Gargleblaster]

...kids just carry striaght on because they already have 10000 hours on MS sim and you have nag them all the time to look out the window...

Affirm on that !

I spent some time simming before starting my PPL and basically flew on instruments for the first 5 hours of instruction. I was driving my instructor crazy, "look out of the damn window !". I was holding altitude at +-100 feet, perfect turns on instruments, etc. etc.

Have to admit that when doing normal turns, I still do that just as much using the artificial horizon as the real one. Shame on me.

However, when it came to instrument flight training (a couple of hours included in the PPL) it helped me a lot. I could fly for hours in foggled or real IMC. Also helped a lot when I took my night qualification.

Wasn't there a Canadian study that gave the average VFR pilot something like 90 seconds to live in after entering IMC ?

Perhaps PPL students should be encouraged to spend X hours in a simulator ?

[DC10RealMan]

Jerricho,

Yes I do apologise about that comment. My point was that FISOs are statistically more likely to deal with that scenario that most ATCOs. In an ideal world we would all have ATPLs, but then we would have to be type rated!.I think a more realistic approach for ATCOs are fam flights and perhaps visits to simulators to see how the airline crews operate their "TRUCE".

[Jerricho]

;)

Nurries mate. I did understand what you were getting at.

[nomorecatering]

I have taught several students who were flight sim addicts. Almost from the word go they could fly fairly accurately, ......in smooth air. Add moderate turblence into the equation and they rapidly fall apart as they are not accustomed to the disoriantation of vertigo. etc etc.

[stue]

When in PPL training, it was drumed into me about going into IMC. Also how/what to do to get out of it. Currently you only need 2hours of imc flight for you ppl, and all that is is a rate 1 turn to get out of imc. I think alot more imc flight should be taught in the PPL, i had a few extra lessons of it and it has helped me no end.
I have, however, never found myself in that situation (and i hope i wont) but i think that a few extra lessons of imc flight in the ppl could be the difference between life and death.

A sobering mp3 to listen to.

stue

[Airist]

Wow. Such a relief it worked out OK.

Hear hear to the congrats to ATC; even with my very limited experience, I've had enough Aaaaagh! moments -- all either self-inflicted or imagined --- to know how much difference that calm, friendly voice on the radio can make.

But hats off also to the pilot, for agreeing to the recording being promulgated. :ok:

Suggestion to Mods: Can this be copied to the Private Flying forum? (Don't know how these things work!) There are a lot of lessons here.

[DX Wombat]

Definitely "Hats off" to the ATCO concerned. It can be extremely difficult to get through to someone in that degree of distress when you can speak to him or her face to face but it is very much more difficult when you can't and have to try to calm them from such a long distance. An excellent job and a great result. :ok:

[Scott Voigt]

In the US you don't get any sort of training that would help you take care of something like that. You either are a pilot (on your own.) or get that sort of thing on your own from being instructed by someone who is a pilot and knows. Our formal training is very, very limited when it comes to emergencies and such...

regards

Scott

[Spamcan defender]

Having listened to the recording, I reckon the guy was unbelievably lucky to get out of that one in one piece. However.....as an area ATCO, and I think a couple of posters have touched on this, I personally would have major concerns about giving flying instruction over the R/T.
Dont get me wrong, it obviously worked out fine in this individual case but society today is one of lightning-quick litigation unfortunately and had this incident had a different outcome, you can bet your behind that the ATCO would have been sued rotten.
It's really a difficult spot for the ATCO to be in as the pilot genuinely sounds like he's gonna crash. Human nature would be to help this guy in any way you can i.e give some a/c handling advice to the pilot but in the process, open youself up to a whole world of crap if it all goes horribly wrong. What lawyer can say if the advice you have given DID or DID NOT result in the a/c crashing??
I'm sorry to say but I would be inclined to let the guy fly (or attempt to fly) the plane and give him all the (legal!!) help I could. Sounds like a cop-out but I would like to know how many controllers out there would actually get involved in giving handling advice, experienced flying instructor or not for fear of legal reprisals????

SD