Callsign knowledge

[captain cumulonimbus]

Hi all.

Just a question from apilot who knows no better.

In ATCO training,is there a requirement that you have a wide knowledge of airline callsigns?

I know the flight's info comes up on the screen as a line reading BAW54 for example,and this would be spoken as "Speedbird54",but this just follows on from something i heard yesterday,where,in africa,a Transavia 738 was repeatedly addressed as"Tanzania xxx",then,on handoff to a new sector,was referred to as TRAxxx (obviously this is what appeared on screen).As they are seldom ever seen over africa,i guess the controllers didnt know their proper callsign,and there being static from CBs around,couldnt hear it clearly.

So just wondering if callsign knowledge is a part of training or not?

Cheers.

[ATCO1962]

Yep, you need to know your customers so we spend a bit of time teaching callsign recognition. If an unusual set of letters comes through, we grab a copy of ICAO document (???? can't remember the number off hand) and find out who it is.

[Gonzo]

I don't believe that it's taught in the UK as such. One learns to pick them up naturally. The whole point in the ICAO three letter designators was so that one could address the a/c with the three letter phonetic callsign, remember.

[renard]

About two years ago, when BA Citiexpress started doing routes to Spain from BHX we were forever being called "Bravo Romeo Tango 123".

Now we get called British 123.

[Jerricho]

I've been told a great story about a guy training who had a Condor flight (CFG) coming into his airspace. The trainee, who hadn't seen the designator before, rightly started asking people what it was. The guy sitting next to him didn't hesitate with the reply of "That's called Cargo-flugen".

For the couple of hundred miles of airspace, Condor was operating under the new callsign Cargo-flugen ............ :}

[126,7]

We have a funtion on the radar screen that tells you what the airline is called.
BAW54 would have "Speedbird" written above it. Comes in handy. Prerequisite is that the data is updated regularly.
Airlines changing names/callsigns and new ones popping up like mushrooms.

[captain cumulonimbus]

interesting.Like LH Cargo is now referred to by its own callsign "Lufthansa Cargo",instead of plain "Lufthansa"?

how does that show up on screen?

[makeapullup]

Lufthansa Cargo (GEC) comes on our screens extremely quickly. Incredible rate of climb in their MD11 out of JNB. Always upsetting when they have to level off!

[captain cumulonimbus]

i suppose the auw is minuscule out of fajs on the relatively short hop to hkjk.i've seen them climb out too...quite impressive! 8296 i think it is?

[126,7]

Lufthansa Cargo (GEC) comes on our screens extremely quickly

Ha ha ha, thats what happens when your screen is too close to the ground. Move over to ACC and they'll just fly across your screen with a ridiculous rate of knots.

[Arkady]

The Flight Progress Strips (paper or otherwise) have the callsign on them IF it is in the database. If not, a quick look in the relevent ICAO document might give you a clue but chances are it won't. After that, you listen VERRRY carefully when he/she checks in and make a best guess on what you hear. I'm sure some flights get a different C/S with every controller!!!!

[makeapullup]

8296/8297 correct.

[Loki]

Arkady:

Callsigns on strips were introduced as a temporary measure when we went from 2 to 3 letters (eg BA became BAW). When the computer chaps wanted to take them off again, they were prevailed upon to retain this valuable feature.

Occasionally there appears a 3 figure group which has not been encountered before, and has been said, there is almost always time to look it up in the always to hand ICAO doc. (or ask the preceding sector/unit what he`s calling himself).

Trusting ones ears is always a bit perilous, I used to think NEATAX was MEATAXE for years.....no one ever complained.

[rej]

captain cumulonimbus

In my experience the use of callsigns instead of their associated trigraphs comes down to experience. The more time you sit in the seat and use them, coupled with your professional pride and application, the quicker you start using them properly. The same can be said for filling out paper flight strips. I used to see many controllers waste valuable scribing time by writing out the callsign in full on the strip, such as Speedbird 123 when writing BAW 123 would have saved a little time. This small amount of time spent here all adds up when you are dealing with multiple freecalls.

[captain cumulonimbus]

Interesting,thanks all of you who replied.

I think that you're 100% correct LOKI,trusting your ears can be dangerous! thats how "Transavia" became "Tanzania"! To be fair,there was a huge amount of t/storm static so it couldn't have been more than strength 3 on thr RT.

REJ also makes a valid point,i often hear odd three letter codes such as VDA or ADB or WBD,all belonging to airlines with callsigns,being used instead of the proper callsign.This is in Joburg airspace as well as north of us into africa.A notorious case is MK Airlines,who almost never use their callsign "Kruger"...i doubt many people even know that its their callsign! i think i've heard it used twice and i'm very often on frequency when they are coming in or out of here.same goes for SBO being used in place of "Stabo" for some of their freighter flights.

[rej]

c2

Well I have learnt another fact here. I controlled MK Airlines ac for about 2 1/2 years and never once did they (the pilots) or we (the controllers) use KRUGER. They used to check in as Mike Kilo XXX thus setting the precidence for the remaining transmissions. Thanks for the info - it just goes to prove that you are never to old/experienced to learn!

[the_hawk]

Incredible rate of climb in their MD11...

well this plane does like to go up, obviously (http://aviation-safety.net/photos/displayphoto.php?id=20020109-I-0&vnr=1&kind=I)

[ATCO1962]

As far as I know, there is no requirement to use your radiotelephony ID (eg Kruger) once you've been assigned a 3-letter ICAO designator. You can use either and, in fact, when you're travelling through airspace where you know you're not very well known, it is better to use the 3-letter designator unless the controller knows what it means, otherwise there could be red faces all round!

[NewModelATC]

Flight International of 11-17 October 2005 has the following article:

Communication tops ATC risk list - Eurocontrol identifies loss of air-ground link and callsign confusion as most likely to cause conflicts.

The last time I looked, the UK NAS database listed over 900 Flight ID and RT Callsign pairs. An impossible number to learn.

One would have thought that in the modern age there should be no need for the controller to remember information that could easily be supplied by the surveillance or flight data displays. There is not a requirement for the flight plan to specify the RT callsign but it could easily be determined at the point of departure and passed on as part of the coordination data from sector to sector.

Well it could be, if there was electronic coordination. But then the system could also pass information such as an assigned radar heading or any speed restriction which would cut down on the RT. Then there would be no need to specify “call XXX callsign only” as this would be the norm.

Then we could tackle other situations in which knowledge more usually associated with spotters is required. Situations such as “Line up after the A320” followed by “Sorry, unfamiliar with the type.”

No, far better to keep things as they are and remember the glory days of Pan American and the insistence from the flightdeck (cockpit?) of the “Clipper One” that all their clearance requests be granted.

www.sensus-dp.demon.co.uk

[Kestrel_909]

Out of interest, does anyone know who has a callsign that sounds a bit like 'Nude-on' or "New dawn?"
Have heard it the past few days heading West across the Ocean. One of the new business services from STN?

[Fried_Chicken]

"New Dawn" is the callsign for EOS Airlines, using 75s out of Stansted for JFK.

Three letter designator is ESS

Fried Chicken

[Kestrel_909]

Thanks for that Fried_Chicken.

[NewModelATC]

Kestrel 909,

Your callsign could be NEWDAN for Newair Airservice. I haven’t checked whether they’d be flying OACC.

Websites

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/a/ai/airline_call_sign.htm

and

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/hub/A698231

List callsigns.

[Topofthestack]

It's NEW DAWN operating a regular B752 from JFK to EGSS and return. I believe they're a business class only outfit. Perhaps 'Nude-on' would be a more interesting callsign; it would certainly attract the attention and have us folks putting down Page 3!

As regards callsigns, us oldies just had to learn them. We used to have progress tests at the College of Knowledge each week on our initial course and then learnt them as we went along. These days the 'kids' are helped by the company RT callsign being printed on the top of the strip above the 3 figure designatior and trip number. My god, they have it easy these days!

Come on guys, how many old 2 letter ones can you remember besides BA and all the easy ones?

[kontrolor]

not obligatory to learn, sometimes saves time (pilots listen better), sometimes causes confusion, like on one of my night shifts, middle of the night, two planes, both FL360, one Sunbird536, another Speedbird536