Dara

[CashMachine]

How is it in this day and age of lean and cost cutting, the Airforce can afford to give 90 airmen to work for a civvy company?

I'm referring to DARA Fleetlands!
For some months now the airforce has had some 90 people seconded to DARA to carry out the Minor/Minor* maintenance of the Chinooks.
DARA apparently outbid the airforce to win the contract to carry out this maintenance! Hardly surprising when you end up with half your staff being paid for by the tax payer, nice little earner!!

Of course, the blue suits are now having to work harder, have their tea breaks and lunch breaks (this is second (or is it third??) line, oh no, it's depth now isn't it)all but taken away. The singlies are having to live in 10 man rooms at HMS Sultan, which is a training base, and so they are being treated as trainies. Everyone else is transported from Odiham leaving at 5am.
All this to bail out a company that has never produced an aircraft on time (they've always done the Majors!).

Couple this with the fact that Odiham has now lost 90 odd people on the guard/station duties list so these now come around much more often.
Still, at least they're not subject to the dreaded LEAN!!!!

If there are any journo's out there reading this, this might make a good little "taxpayers bail out civvy company", "waste of taxpayers money" story!

[pr00ne]

CashMachine,

DARA is not a "Civvy" company, DARA is the Ministry of Defence.

[WorkingHard]

"the blue suits are now having to work harder, have their tea breaks and lunch breaks all but taken away"
Civvy street Cash Machine. Get used to it, no featherbedding out here.

[Findon 40]

I think if you look hard enough,u'll find its not just the airforce who are doing this.......the Army are having the same problems with the lynx at fleetlands............!!!!

[Talking Radalt]

Well I actually agree with the sentiment behind Cash's message.
Ten man rooms? Nice!
Show me a civvy company that'd treat it's employees like that?
Oil rigs for example (ok different environment but still a pain in the ar$e) they do two weeks on, two weeks off, where off really means "off" and the pay is phenominal. It may be a harsher working environemt but a large part of those terms are to compensate for a crap working day.
Civvy life is worse?....Friend of mine is a tels engineer and covers an MOD contract. Fair play, he wrote it in to his terms that being on call is worth time-and-a-half because he can't go anywhere AND is suffering skills-fade in the process, and also gets genuine time off in lieu of days on call REGARDLESS of whether he gets called in or not.
And his basic is more too.

All this LEAN bolleau has echoes of Victorian mill ownership if you ask me with people now having the level of commitment dictated to them in their terms of employment being thoroughly abused.
"If you don't like it, leave....oh that's right, you can't do that for another x years without paying £x"
(Rant off)

[steve_cbe]

>> How is it in this day and age of lean and cost cutting, the Airforce can afford to give 90 airmen to work for a civvy company?

It's because the RAF have far too many blue suits who have nothing better to do. DARA is not a 'civvy company' it is part of the MoD. By utilising the considerable spare capacity of servicemen, the MoD benefits from a lower cost, though the inherent inefficiency of servicemen compared to civilians negates the effect slightly.

>> DARA apparently outbid the airforce to win the contract to carry out this maintenance!

I understand that DARA carries out this work as a sub-contractor to Boeing and that the MoD mandates that servicemen are utilised to do part of the maintenance. This is to help maintain their skills and reduce the price.

>> Of course, the blue suits are now having to work harder, have their tea breaks and lunch breaks (this is second (or is it third??) line, oh no, it's depth now isn't it)all but taken away.

My heart bleeds blue blood.

>> All this to bail out a company that has never produced an aircraft on time (they've always done the Majors!).

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

>> If there are any journo's out there reading this, this might make a good little "taxpayers bail out civvy company", "waste of taxpayers money" story!

Unlikely because even the journo's would do some research before writing such a story or making such a claim.

[Mad_Mark]

<pedanticmode>
I think you will find that it is not the "Airforce" or "airforce" but the Royal Air Force, RAF or, if you really must :rolleyes: Air Force :ooh:
</pedanticmode>

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Talking Radalt]

It's because the RAF have far too many blue suits who have nothing better to do
Tell me you are fecking joking? And you have the audcacity to then say:
even the journo's would do some research before writing such a story or making such a claim

T.wat

[CashMachine]

Civvy street Cash Machine. Get used to it, no featherbedding out here.

Gotta agree with that, workingHard, however the 90 plus service personnel aren't civvies!

If the civvies are required to work overtime they're paid for it. Obviously, we're paid our lottery wins every month to work whenever our lords and masters say!

I think you will find that it is not the "Airforce" or "airforce" but the Royal Air Force, RAF or, if you really must Air Force

What the F:mad: K are you on Mad_Mark??

I think you\'ll actually find nowadays it\'s the roYAl aIR fARce!

Steve_cbe

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

I\'m pretty sure I (or any trained monkey) could find plenty of evidence!

[Talking Radalt]

Obviously, we're paid our lottery wins every month to work whenever our lords and masters say! ...and get on a bus at 5am everyday don't forget

[Mad_Mark]

What the F :mad: K are you on Mad_Mark??

Well, whatever it is, I obviously haven't had as much tonight as you seem to have :rolleyes: Try stepping away from the keyboard and sleeping off your agressiveness :zzz:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[steve_cbe]

>> I'm pretty sure I (or any trained monkey) could find plenty of evidence!

OK, I look forward to your evidence in support of the claim that DARA have never produced an aircraft on time. I'll give you until Christmas...

[Talking Radalt]

OK, I look forward to your evidence in support of the claim that blue suits have "nothing better to do". You got til Christmas too.

Like I said, t.wat. :hmm:

[ORAC]

DARA is not a "Civvy" company, DARA is the Ministry of Defence.

Hmm, thats like saying the Met Office is MOD. Like many other parts of the military DARA was "spun Off" as an agency/Trading fund with a remit to make a profit. They arw a commercial organisation with a board of directors. Last year they had a Return of Capital Employed of 6.7%.

And no, they would not get away with treating civilain employees like that - and neither should the MOD to save money. It's akin to the Russian army selling their soldiers to farmers as slave labour.

[The Helpful Stacker]

In answer to the question about who is paying the blue suits whilst they work for DARA, having just left an agency after a 3 year stint I was under the impression that our wages were paid out of the agency's budget rather the the RAF's as a whole, hence the reason agencies are so keen to civilianise any military posts within it as soon as possible (as in my case) because its cheaper to employ civvies.

Of course it all comes out of the same pot at the end of the day but its just my 2p worth....

[C130 Techie]

steve_cbe

The idea that the RAF has idle manpower with nothing to do is utter cr@p. Most operational units that I know is experiencing some sort of overstretch whether it be OOA, guard commitments, technical difficulties etc and its going to get worse as the redundancies kick in and the tasking goes up early next year.

In most cases the guys are just getting on quietly with the job they are paid to do. What they don't need is to be further burdened covering up for other peoples failings and to be treated like sh1t in the process.

What they also don't need is prats like you spouting cr@p about something you obviously know nothing about. I notice that your profile is empty. Its so easy to snipe from behind anonimity :mad:

[southside]

I understood that the RAF had an "excessive" manpower problem. In sunny Kernow we have numerous RAF maintainers working for the RN (I understand its the same at Yeovilton).
I was told that this was because of Typhoon, in so much as the RAF recruited lots of guys to work on the Typhoon but because of delays these guys couldn't be employed by the RAF and they were farmed out to work for the RN. Not sure when the RAF are going to get these guys back but its great having them here. Thanks RAF

[Bluntend]

Southside, don't be fooled into thinking that just because the RAF has people at Yeovilton (and possibly elsewhere working alongside our RN colleagues) that this means there is an 'excess' of SACs, Cpls, Sgts and CTs. Have a look at the number of Dark Blue suits at RAF Cottesmore and RAF Wittering these days.

[southside]

But thats where the dark blue work. Thats their base. Whereas the RAF guys who now work for the RN are only here until the RAF can find employment for them. The Dark blue at Witt and Cott will be there for...well, as long as there is a JHF.

I'm not getting at the crabs here (oddly) but just feel that its strange that some people on here complain that there isn't enough people when in reality the RAF have lots of guys who have been farmed out to the RN as the RAF don't have enough work for them.

[Bluntend]

Well, I can't comment with authority on what jobs the men and women in light blue are doing at Yeovilton (and elsewhere) so I'm not going to try. What I can say with a fair degree of confidence is that although it may appear that the RAF is under tasked, we're not. It may appear that we have an 'excess' of manpower - we don't. We're haemorrhaging experience at every level and the workload on those left behind is becoming unmanageable.

As an aside, and getting back to the DARA theme, the BBC covered DARA St.Athan back in September:

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/low/wales/4213152.stm

It was the quote from John Smith MP that "The RAF is good at fighting wars. What they are hopeless at is repairing aircraft in factories..." that really p1ssed me off. I recommend that Mr Smith has a closer look at the 'quality' product that DARA St. Athan have pushed out in the past. It might appear more cost effective to have cheap civvis doing the work but not when light blue techies have to spend weeks putting right all the snags found after the 's' aircraft is delivered back to the RAF.

[southside]

Whilst I totally agree that ALL the Armed Forces are over tasked, it still seems odd to me that the RAF can be undermanned when, as I say, both Yeovilton and Culdrose have lots of RAF maintainers working for them. If the RAF are undermanned, why don't they recall all these guys back into the fold?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Of course I have no doubt that Southside realises that a surplus in one or two specific trades doesn't mean that the rest of the RAF trade structure isn't undermanned or over-stretched.....

Currently there seems to be a hell of a lot of RAF personnel in acting ranks whereas actual promotion has slowed. Uncertainty over future cuts and force size seems to be the driving force for this and as you can tell its not just promotions that are affected. Unit establishments are being particularly hard hit with many units operating with far too few personnel for the tasks in hand, whilst in other situations you have extra personnel being farmed out to the agencies in the hope of retaining some trade knowledge through these changes. Overall though in my ever so humble opinion the deficiencies in personnel far out weights the surpluses.

[RedTop]

Cash Machine

If there are any journo's out there reading this, they might make a good little "taxpayers bail out civvy company", "waste of taxpayers money" story!
I'm sorry Cash Machine, but as a redtop reporter I may struggle to help you on this one......

However......
The singlies are having to live in 10man rooms at HMS Sultan, which is a training base, and so they are being treated as trainies.

If you meant trannies and have exclusive pics......then I might be able to help.

Sorry to be a pedant but If my memory serves me correctly I think it's spelt trainees, mate.

Kind regards,

Spawn of Satan / Bile of Beelzebub / Dribble of Detritus*

* delete where necessary

[Sven Sixtoo]

Hi Redtop

Good to see you've decided to stay with us.

Sven

[Talking Radalt]

Of course I have no doubt that Southside realises that a surplus in one or two specific trades doesn't mean that the rest of the RAF trade structure isn't undermanned or over-stretched.....
I do, I doubt southside even realises what day it is sometimes :hmm:
Southside you are spouting off again. So all the light blue comes home to help (in this case) the SH force, would that not leave JHF short in equal measure? Or are the light blue engineers employed on Harrier only there because they too have nothing better to do right now?
You seem to think the engineers in question are being lent to DARA simply to keep them occupied and out of mischief until something better comes along.

Wasn't it DARA who managed to Cat x (where x is an integer between 2 and 5) a load of GR1s back in the 90s with nothing more than a sharp drill bit in the region of the main spar?

(Notice this is a question, not an allegation or statement of fact)

[OiOiOi Hoot Hoot]

I thought the light blue Merlins were bailing out the Seakings in hotter climbs!!

[The Helpful Stacker]

....bailing out the Sea Kings in hotter climbs!!

You mean bailing out puff pant airways?

In the JHF(I) building the Merlin lads have an amusing cartoon of Sea King ops on their door, but to be fair the Sea King lads have a pretty accurate response on theirs too...

;)

[southside]

Yeah I am spouting off but within reason. I just can't understand why, when the RAF say they are undermanned, then we have approx 70 RAF maintainers working at Culdrose. I also believe that the same is true at Yeovilton where the RAF chaps are working on the RN Lynx.

If the RAF are short of maintainers then why are the RAF paying for their maintainers to work on the RN Lynx?

[dolphinops]

I've had the pleasure of working with/for DARA
and I can confirm that for those that haven't....
In the immortal words of Paul Calf
DARA = " bag o' sh!t£"
Aircraft NEVER on time.
Nearly always Tech "problems"
Staff/Union "difficulties"

Need I go on?

[The Helpful Stacker]

You really don't read other posts too well do you Southside?

The RAF may be surplus in certain trade at the moment due to the delay in the Typhoon. Techies can't be trained over night and as a result when they were recruited with regards to the Typhoon program there would have been a job for them to do. As it happens there still is a job for them to do for the time being and they are being paid to do it out of DARA's budget.

If you truly are a seat/stick interface of the dark blue persuasion I am a little worried. For one entrusted with so much your powers of observation are very lacking and your basic knowledge of the MoD is shocking.

[The Rocket]

Helpful Stacker,

If you truly are a seat/stick interface of the dark blue persuasion I am a little worried

If I were you mate, I wouldn't have too many sleepless nights worrying about that particular issue:rolleyes: :ok:

[Talking Radalt]

I just can't understand why, when the RAF say they are undermanned, then we have approx 70 RAF maintainers working at Culdrose

I think you've answered your own question there....although you probably won't see it that way. :hmm:

[whiz]

originally posted by talking radalt


Wasn't it DARA who managed to Cat x (where x is an integer between 2 and 5) a load of GR1s back in the 90s with nothing more than a sharp drill bit in the region of the main spar?

No, I believe it was a civilian team employed by the illustrious Marshalls of cambridge. They managed to read the engineering drawing incorrectly and drilled the fuselage at the wrong former :eek:

[Krystal n chips]

Thought it was Airworks ( deceased ) who did the "drill here, any spot will do" job on the GR1s ?

[Jobza Guddun]

Southside,

As I understand it, the RAF maintainers at Culdrose are there for 2nd Line Maint on the Merlin, the plan being (or is to be) to centralise Merlin 2nd Line in one location. As the largest operator of Merlins is at RAF Helston, seems logical to me to put it there. They will be working only on RAF cabs I think but I'm not certain. No reason why they couldn't service RN ones though, to maintain efficient tracks.

TR,

It was a contractor (Airworks?) at Saints who Cat 5 damaged (I think) 14 F3 centre fuselage sections with abysmal working practices, resulting in the breaking up of the redundant F2s for their centre fuselages. They were using pneumatic chisels for a type of rivet removal and battered the frames around the rivet holes.

Maintenance on the cheap = poorly trained monkeys doing your work = higher long-term costs, either in repairs, delays, or diverting mil techies to recover aircraft, as happened at Saints; the F3 force was robbed of people to take over from the sacked connies.

steve_che
If you think we have plenty of people with nothing better to do, then you squire are a deluded t1t. Go speak to Lyneham or Odiham people for starters. :mad:

JG
Blue suiter with plenty better to do

[whiz]

Krystal,
You are of course spot on. :O

[southside]

As I understand it, the RAF maintainers at Culdrose are there for 2nd Line Maint on the Merlin, the plan being (or is to be) to centralise Merlin 2nd Line in one location. As the largest operator of Merlins is at RAF Helston, seems logical to me to put it there. They will be working only on RAF cabs I think but I'm not certain. No reason why they couldn't service RN ones though, to maintain efficient tracks

That may well be the case and if it is then it seems a sensible idea. But why are RAF maintainers servicing RN Lynx at RAF Yeovil?

[Truck2005]

Going back to Cashmachines original post. The RAF guys at Fleetlands, (and at St. Athan), were sent there to give their experience to the workforce prior to DARA taking over the job. Don't forget, DARA /MOD has been in existance for many years, doing the same work - deep strip maintainance. (I would like to point out that for the most part it was service manned). With Minors/Minor* the work makes a supple change.

You have to get the workforce to stop thinking Major. (Which is pretty much strip it to bones then build it). As you are aware Minors are less in depth and a workforce used to Majors will go too far if not shown the correct depth.

It is an easy mistake - you see a crack, you snag it , you fix it. In Minors you see a crack, you snag it and then check with the IPT to see if they want you to fix it, (and pay for it).

That is putting it simply. As an engineer you want to fix it but you will be surprised how many snags the IPTs do not want you to fix, purely and simple because they do not have the dosh.

[pr00ne]

southside,

and all those having a pop at surplus RAF manpower……….

The briefest of attempts at a little research, no more than a few minutes on Google in fact, reveals that your theory of hordes of surplus RAF ginger beers is rather wide of the mark.

In fact what is happening is all a part of the Lean programme and creation of single site Depth Support operations; for the Merlin this has meant the RAF Eng Wing third line operation moving to Culdrose from Benson, for the Wokka from Odiham to Fleetlands and for the Sea King to Yeovilton. These new operations are joint service staffed as they are supporting multiple service assets. They also involve civilian contractors. Light blue manpower will be a part of these teams but is larger initially to help these things bed in.

Simple huh?

[Talking Radalt]

Simple huh?....like southside him/herself. :hmm:

[CashMachine]

Pr00ne is correct. However, part of the "surplus" is also due to another aspect of Lean.

Think about it, You lean out a station to save money, but then you're left with 150 people (or however many) who you can't just sack but, having them as surplus is still costing you money!
Solution - put them on someone elses inventory!! "Lease" them to DARA, give them to the Navy get rid of them anyway you can! Look at how much money I've saved at my station!!

RedTop
Sorry to be a pedant but If my memory serves me correctly I think it's spelt trainees, mate.
Yeah, spilling mushtack. You'll have to guess what i really meant!!!!

[Safety_Helmut]

Jobza, you're right, it was Airworks. I seem to remember that they filled the chiselled area around the 'rivet' heads. This bodge was subsequently found by a JT carrying out rutine work in the area. Further inspections of othe jets revealed the scale of the cock up.

Safety_Helmut

[ORAC]

BBC: Defence workers braced for cuts

Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram is due to announce details of cuts at the Defence Aviation Repair Agency (Dara).

Some 725 jobs will go when Dara's fast jet operation at St Athan, south Wales, and its engine maintenance business in Hampshire are closed, the union says. Hundreds more jobs are expected to go at Army vehicle repair agency, Abro..... The TGWU said the armoured vehicle "land facilities" at Donnington, in Shropshire, will close with 578 jobs going by March 2007. Other land facilities at Warminster, in Wiltshire, and Colchester, in Essex, which deals with unscheduled repairs to the Army's fighting vehicles, will close by March 2007 with the loss of 161 jobs, the union said.

It added that a further 350 jobs on VC10 work at St Athan, in the Vale of Glamorgan, would be at risk of privatisation, as would a further 860 posts on the helicopter repair and components business based at Fleetlands, Hampshire, and at Almondbank, in Scotland.

Only Dara's electronics business at Sealand in north Wales will remain intact, the TGWU said......

The Transport and General Workers Union said it believed a total of 1,951 redundancies would be announced by Mr Ingram on Tuesday afternoon, with a further 1,210 at risk......

He is said to want "more adaptable, efficient and effective support structures, better configured to enable our Armed Forces expeditionary operations".

TGWU national officer Peter Allenson expressed "severe disappointment" at the expected announcement and said it was a "betrayal" of skilled workers. "There will be a mad dash to the private sector which will not give any long-term value for money." The news would not go down well with those that now faced a "bleak future", he added.

[The Helpful Stacker]

So what would the TGWU prefer, the MoD to continue to give work to an agency that doesn't seem to be able to come up with the goods, even with a whole host of 'skilled workers'? Surly they're not implying the government chucks good money after bad for the sake of their members (and membership dues)?

Betrayal of their members, how about betrayal of the population as a whole by not spending taxes in the most efficient way.

[Krystal n chips]

I thought Sealand was due to close per se ? or is it only the RAF element of the base that will now close ? A developers dream in either case.

[Yeller_Gait]

Nearly 2,000 defence jobs to go
Dara engineers in a cockpit
Dara engineers examine the cockpit of a jet
Nearly 2,000 jobs are to be cut in a shake-up of defence repair and maintenance services.

The Defence Aviation Repair Agency's (Dara) fast-jet site in St Athan, south Wales, will close with 500 job losses, armed forces minister Adam Ingram said.

Dara's engine maintenance business in Fleetlands, Hampshire, will also be shut with 225 jobs going by March 2007.

A further 1,226 jobs are being axed at Army vehicle repair service, Abro, with 628 of them going in Shropshire.

'Frontline readiness'

Abro will be closing its armoured vehicle and engine facilities at Donnington by March 2007.

Its "one-stop shops" at Warminster, Wiltshire, and Colchester, Essex, will also close by March 2007 with up to 281 redundancies, the minister told MPs.

A further 107 jobs will be lost at Bovington, Dorset, with up to 210 redundancies across other Abro sites, Mr Ingram said.

But 165 new Abro jobs would be created at a number of smaller facilities near Warminster and Colchester.

On top of the job losses, Dara's helicopter repair business at Fleetlands, in Hampshire, and Almondbank, Scotland, are to be market tested for possible sell-off.

Mr Ingram said the changes would significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft at reduced costs.

BBC Wales news (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4418754.stm)


If I heard correctly on the radio, the DARA site at St Athan was only opened last year !

Another waste of £130M of tax payers money.

Y_G

[southside]

Good story.


Not much of a decision though eh?

Get rid of 2000 jobs or save £2 billion by 2010 and significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft.

Well done Mr Ingram. you get my vote.

[CashMachine]

Good thing we sent 90+ RAF blokes to Fleetlands or they would be buggered.

Oh, and the engine repair facility at Fleetlands is going to be shut - good thing Odiham got rid of it's engine bay and sent all the engine work to Fleetlands a couple of months ago then!!!!

Get rid of 2000 jobs or save £2 billion by 2010 and significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft.

Not sure what you mean by this southside! Did you actually mean "Get rid of 2000 jobs AND save £2b"? Either way your either a bit of a tw*t or doing your usual devils advocate job!

[Truck2005]

Helpfull stacker

I hope that your handle has nothing to do with your trade and that you are fully qualified to make those sweeping statements.

Those 'skilled workers' that you point at ARE, in fact, skilled. Most of us are ex RAF. All we have done is chosen to jump, rather than be pushed by the drawdown in the forces. Our skills have not changed.

The VC 10s are going out on time , under budget. The Harriers were doing the same.

I agree with you, I do wonder where the good money is being chucked, (it is most certainly not in this direction).

The TGWU does speak out loud sometimes but they are quite often right. With a £70 million pound hanger just open, (after an extensive business case investigated by their lordships), what is the TRUE underlying purpose of Ingrams decision.

We will find out in 18 months

[HOODED]

Truck, sorry mate but if DARA managed to get a Harrier out on time and on budget I must have missed it. From memory during HMP1 most ac were 6-12 months late and were usually only slipped on the program in the last month or so. This caused fleet managers a real headache as the next jet in was usually running out of hours. Maybe the GR7 to 7A program was a little better but even then this small program was usually late to deliver (though I'll admit much better than HMP1) Most of the problems(not all) were down to poor spares provision and this was used well by DARA to hide a manpower/planning problems. Simply order something the RAF have no spares of!

To be fair DARA were starting to get their act together just as the contract was pulled.

Where is all this work going to be done now then? The RAF has just culled hundreds of engineers. But hey we'll just not service them as much that'll improve availability! Good idea this on an old ac that entered service on an 400hr between Minor maintenance program which worked well to now go to nearly 800 hours between maintenance. The jets wont shake themselves to pieces doing that then!

Guess all the structural problems normally picked up and CAT3 repaired on maintenance will now either not be picked up until well beyond normal repair limits or be put CAT 3 on the Squadrons during routine engine changes etc.

Time will tell but I know one engineer whose glad he got redundancy before the **** really hits the fan.

[the funky munky]

Obviously it is the right decision to bin DARA. For the FJ world it keeps the RAF employed, the large aircraft will be repaired by SERCO or Marshalls for a vast fee in that lovely FREE super hanger in Wales and rotary will be 'supported' by whoever throws in a cheapo bid for Fleetlands work.
Nu Labour have decided that Sealand must turn a profit so will be kept in house.

Out of interest do the cabinet members have shares in BAE/AgustaWestlands/SERCO/Marshalls or am I incredibly cynical.

Just to satisfy my curiousity but who will do all the support when the next shooting war kicks off and the servicemen are told they can't have their planes cos the price went up or the contract doesn't cover war work.

RIP DARA you were unloved from the start.

[CashMachine]

So, can anyone actually tell me where all this money Bliar and his cronies are saving goes?
After all, the armed forces, NHS, police, fire brigade (sorry, can't call them a brigade anymore not very PC, sounds too militaristic!) service, roads, schools (have I forgotten anyone) are all vastly underfunded but this shi*hole of a government still NEED to save more money?? Maybe it's to pay for all the MP's pay rises!!!! Or is it to pay for cuddly tones foreign adventures!

[Safety_Helmut]

HOODED

I suspect that no one yet fully understands the implications of extending the servicing regimes in the way that we are doing it. They are not just being extended by single figures (%) but by 30-40% in some cases.

Safety_Helmut

[Jobza Guddun]

S-H and HOODED,

Lets not forget though that most, if not all, of the extensions have been achieved simply by taking away the extendibility (?) option on servicings

e.g

on the GR4, Primaries were done around 150 FH but could be extended out by 37.5%. Now Ps are done at 206FH and are unextendable.

That's certainly the case on GRs anyway.

JG

[Talking Radalt]

So, can anyone actually tell me where all this money Bliar and his cronies are saving goes?
I believe Ms C Booth QC has just been offered use of an official Government vehicle: Omega, black, bullet proof, qnty:1, PM's wife, for the use of.

[HOODED]

Jobza, do you really believe that extensions won't be brought back in later when the flexability of being able to stagger ac into maintenance is needed.
I suspect that ac going into maintenance after the extra hours flown will be in need of a lot of extra work once stipped down(CAT 3s in particular). Maybe their TRT will extend and without the flexability of extensions ac backing up would be grounded.
Just my prediction but as Safety_Helmut says no one really knows the implications of these huge increases in time between maintenance. Time will tell. My guess is that availability will increase at the front line initially(less ac on sched maint) but as the ac are flown harder with less maintenance they will gradually break more and with a lot less experienced engineers to fix them(once tranche 3 is finished)they will spend longer on the ground thus reducing availability to lower levels than before the cost saving changes.

[Washington_Irving]

There were around 13-15 F3 airframes that were fcuked-up (and that was the technical term I heard being used at the time) by Airworks, IIRC.

Everyone at St Athan knew this was going to be the end result from the moment that the creation of DARA was announced. The idea that they would have attracted commercial customers was pie-in-the-sky. Even now, with the big hanger (Red Dragon I believe), there is simply no gap in the market for such an operation, but I guess the WDA had to throw a few tens of millions of tax-payers money at some White Elephant or another. If they used some common sense and employed someone who knew at least the square-root of fcuk-all about business, instead of a bunch of retired Gp Capts and Wg Cdrs (who didn't want DARA to be at St Athan in the first place), the whole sorry mess could have been avoided. As it is, the area where I grew up is on the verge of being over-run by Pongos, their insufferable pad-brats and their fat,ogrish women-folk. Chav-tastic!

So what do we have after 10 years or so of PFI/ "marketisation"? A return to the status quo with the jets being maintained by RAF personnel, albeit not nearly enough of them and not nearly enough support.

W@nkers.

[Roadster280]

"A return to the status quo with the jets being maintained by RAF personnel

W@nkers."

A tad harsh I feel, after all, there's not nearly enough of them, and not nearly enough support.

Being quoted out of context is exactly the sort of stupid tricks that are going on.

W@ankers indeed!

[StuartP]

So what would the TGWU prefer, the MoD to continue to give work to an agency that doesn't seem to be able to come up with the goods, even with a whole host of 'skilled workers'? Surly they're not implying the government chucks good money after bad for the sake of their members (and membership dues)?

Er...yes. They're a union, they have no responsibility to tax payers, just to their overpaid exec...I mean their members.

Stuart (Union 'til I Die!)

[pr00ne]

Cashmachine,

They are NOT saving money! The Defence budget is rising, slowly and inexorably but it IS rising, even after inflation (and that’s a mute point as it is after general inflation). Any money saved here, as with all the other “force adjustments” remains in the Defence budget. All of the areas of expenditure you quote are rising after decades of neglect, but there is simply not enough cash to go around.

Look at the last audited set of Govt expenditure vs income to see why; in 2004 the Govt had a budget of £519Billion versus receipts of £467Billion…………………

WHY can’t YOU call them a Fire Brigade? That’s what they are man! PC? No, just bolleaux from those with a political agenda.

DARA was a foolish idea from the off, with the current over capacity in the heavy maintenance world it was never going to be a success, as Washington_irving alludes to, staffing it with retired senior officers didn't exactly help!

Is this the end of RAF St.Athan now?

[Krystal n chips]

A further query then. Are all these job losses from the hands on engineers----or---do they also include those in management roles--if not capability. So far, I have seen no mention of the latter, just the skilled workers etc.

[vecvechookattack]

Of course they are saving money. There not spending it, so therefore they must be saving it. I agree that, that money may not yet exist AND it will probably be spent on something much more worthwhile (CVS) ....but, by closing St Ath then the Govt ARE saving money.

..........

Dear Your airships,

Having spend a miserable and wet weekend at RAF St Ath in the 1980's, would it be possible if I were to be given the honour of turning the lights out.

Yours VVHA

[teeteringhead]

Is this the end of RAF St.Athan now? .... well, yes and no.

RAF St Athan (strictly RAF Support Unit St Athan) will cease to be on or about April next year. However, lots of blue suits, primarily 4 S of TT, will remain, and may even incerase in numbers as a result of DTR. OC 4 School will acquire the support elements from the Staish and take on (I suppose) some of his roles. The whole site will be run as a single MoD site by Defence Estates.

The Officers Mess (shared with the Army!) will remain - although Wally the barman retired last year, and it's not been the same since!

The (very) long term plan has always been a "Balkan" solution, cutting the site up into a number of separate sites (Army, RAF, WDA and what was to be DARA), so the demise of DARA St Athan doesn't mean the end of the RAF at St Athan - and that's not to mention UWAS - soon to be joined (allegedly) by an AEF.

do they also include those in management roles ... yes they do. DARA Head Office will lose approx 40% of its people (about 50 of the total) and the remnants of Head Office will move somewhere else (Sealand??)

a bunch of retired Gp Capts and Wg Cdrs ... not sure who you mean - I can only count one - and he's in something of a specialist non-engineering role!! No retired senior engineers that I can see.......

[Krystal n chips]

Teeteringhead-----Thanks for the reply and clarification. It will be interesting to see how many actually do relocate when Head Office moves--given the choices are limited as it were anyway--and even more so if your prediction of Sealand comes true--and as I enquired previously, has the closure of the RAF component at Sealand been put "on hold" or is it still in progress at all ? I have various reasons for asking btw--so this is not simply a curious question.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Missed all of the actual decisions but a quick question on the large ac side of the house. Haven't Brize just got rid of 2nd(?) line to free up space and because of our old favourite - Leaning? :yuk: With a cunning plan to move 2nd line to.............St Athan! What will be the impact now?

prOOne

Decisions out on Brigade v Service v Force. Some are Brigades and some are Services, Met Police are a Service, but other remain a Force. ;)

[CashMachine]

Pr00ne,

Quote from BBC News (Wales) website - Mr Ingram said the changes would save £2bn by 2010-11 and would significantly enhance the required frontline readiness of vehicles and aircraft.

I think he used the word SAVE there!

Fire Brigade/service - same as you can't call them firemen anymore, they are all firefighters now. It was an official edict from the fire service management (well in London anyway!!).

[pr00ne]

Cashmachine,

But not saved FROM the Defence budget, just spent on something else within it!

That most militant bunch the Trade Union that represents most firefighters, a less military minded lot you could not come across, is still the FBU

Fire Brigades Union.

I guess you can't call them FireMEN now on account of all those women who don't like to be called MEN! Real PC right?

[Jobza Guddun]

HOODED
____________________________________________________

"Jobza, do you really believe that extensions won't be brought back in later when the flexability of being able to stagger ac into maintenance is needed."
____________________________________________________

Ah, but under PULSE / JUMP maintenance, whatever, you won't be able to move the servicing time as the plot is rigid. Remember INflexibility is now the key to modern air power!

I totally agree with your post; aircraft being flown longer, there will also be fewer a/c on each sqn (GR4 anyway). But what happens if an aircraft needing extra work begins to delay the whole PULSE line? It gets moved aside and forgotten about until manpower is available to fix it........when? I'm led to believe this has happened in Harrierworld already.

SO, with the planned increase in Flying Hours / CFT; rigid maintenance plots; almost 2000 TG1/2 redundancies; and LEAN, I wonder where we will be in two years time.
:uhoh: :uhoh:

JG

[HOODED]

Jobza, you are absolutely right it has already happened in the Harrier world. You can only move the odd ac to the side of pulse. What happens when every ac that comes in needs a CAT3 repair and their is no repair drawing for it yet. Oh and BTW the BAe senior stress man is on his holidays so the new scheme drawn up to repair this particular problem can't be signed off.

Guess we'll all have to see what the future brings, I only hope my fears are not realised. Having pulled the yellow and black I still feel for those left behind to do more with less. What was it I was once quoted by a member of the Harrier IPT? Oh yes "We've been doing so much with so little for so long that now everyone expects everything with nothing!" :sad:

[DEL Mode]

HOODED

What you do (rightly or wrongly) is you put the shoe on the other foot and pay industry to provide availability of platforms.

I do not condone the power by the hour approach, but holding back a companies income for not repairing a Cat 3 jet focuses the minds of the accountants when the senior stress man is on holiday.

Have to agree with prOOne, budgets are increasing, but when your commitments grow quicker than your income, something has to give.

Agency status has F**KED a world class deep maintenance facility.

[teeteringhead]

Roland P

VC10 work will remain at St Athan, but it won't be done by DARA, (might well be the same blokes with different badges on their ovies). It will be put up for sale and the work done by whoever buys it!

At present the work done by DARA on the VC10 is technically as a sub-contractor for BAe, so they may be a contender to buy the operation. So, from DARA's point of view, the only money-making bit at St A is getting flogged off!!

[tucumseh]

It’s sad to see DARA in decline because, I for one, held them in great esteem at one time; albeit when they were still separate RAF/RN sites. I include 14MU workshops and, especially, RNARW Copenacre. MoD avionic Depth B/C repair, and therefore availability, never got over the decision to do away with the concept of RNARW’s Depth B/C Filter Benches. Their very existence mitigated, at a stroke, most the risks associated with 1st and 2nd Line. The amount of “No Fault Founds” getting back to 3rd and 4th Line rocketed overnight, with no compensatory increase in resources to deal with it.

Coupled with various beancounter and grocer initiatives, like the implementation of AP830 DM87 (incompetence, waste, and some would say fraud because the waste was known about and ignored at the highest level, on the grandest scale) and “Just in Time”, meant DARA got an undeserved bad name. They still get hammered by the user for not delivering on time, but you’ll find that the problem is often unavailability of spares, and simply not under their control. They haven’t arrived “on time”. (Or, they haven’t been bought in the first place). Incredibly, this is especially so on components like rotor heads, engines and transmissions where you know, years in advance, precisely what spares you will need, when, from whom and how much they will cost. There is simply no excuse. From what I gather, DARA are good at such forward planning, but are let down by providers.

But in more recent years (late 90s-on) parts of DARA have shot themselves in the foot. The beginning of the end (in my opinion) was their declaration that “We don’t regard MoD as a customer”. While later withdrawn, the damage was done in large parts of DPA (PE) and DLO (AML). Skilled staff clocked onto waiting time (paid for by MoD), and DPA/DLO having to find money to contract industry to do something that was DARA’s bread and butter. Like DM87 above, effectively paying for the same thing twice. (Such a common occurrence, one would think it policy). I never went back to them after that.

[steve_cbe]

The beginning of the end (in my opinion) was their declaration that “We don’t regard MoD as a customer”.

I'm not sure that DARA could have ever said such a thing, given that MOD work has always constituted over 90% of their income. They may have said and done some odd things, but I simply can't believe this one.

In any case, whatever banner the guys at St Athan worked under, the fact remains that they will clock off for the last time on 30 April 2007, and that's going to be a sad day in my eyes.

[Washington_Irving]

Roadster,
The "W@nkers" comment referred to Chairman Tony, TCH, John Reid and the "Main Building Brain Trust" who thought up this Chinese Fire Drill of a policy, not to mention the fcukwits at the WDA who squandered millions of pounds on St Athan when anyone in their right mind new that trying to operate the site as a business would never work.

By the way, what's the latest gen on the runway extension that would be necessary for the big hangar to even stand chance of doing something more productive than house the 1st Bn, Welsh Guards' MT? I bet the members of the Golf Club are getting pretty anxious...

[tucumseh]

“I'm not sure that DARA could have ever said such a thing, given that MOD work has always constituted over 90% of their income. They may have said and done some odd things, but I simply can't believe this one”.


Sorry. Know it’s hard to believe, but….. Stated by the guy responsible (at the particular unit) for bringing in work. Meeting minuted by his own staff. Circulated. Checked. Double checked. Wouldn’t have got the money to pay industry to do the work without triple checking. As I said, they later withdrew, but once bitten…….

[teeteringhead]

the runway extension that would be necessary ... why necessary??

...Welsh Guards MT must be looking up, there's been a lot of 737s in the hangar lately...

... the Transavia 737-800 that landed yesterday morning (admittedly with getting on for 20 kts on the nose) stopped and turned off in about 3500 ft ........

.... you might be surprised how little runway is required for jets configured for MRO ... they don't always have the 18-30 Club and loadsa duty free on board you know....;)

[Washington_Irving]

Teetering,

Well, D'uh. ;) But there have long been plans to extend the runway to the East- (the 25 end). At one point I even heard a bizarre rumour of there being a TUNNEL for the road that passes Eate Gate/Legoland.

I haven't been back there since the new hangar opened, it sounds like you are on the ground there, so perhaps you can fill in some of the gaps. How much trade is it doing? Is there any news on whether it could actually survive as a comerical enterprise or will it require vast infusions of WDA subsidies to keep it in place? Has their turn-around time improved from their efforts on the FJs? I imagine a commercial customer would not be as tolerant as the MoD of a jet that is hopelessly late getting back into service.

[steve_cbe]

Quite a lot has changed at St Athan recently, so I hear. The VC10 hangar "Twin Peaks" has been rented to ATC Lasham for them to add winglets to 737s of the cheaper European variety. VC10s have decanted into the Superhangar. Only one of the three new hangars has any real FJ activity.

DARA was never likely to attract civil work without a sufficient base of military activity to make their cost rates competitive - and their own study concuded this in 2004. Since then they have not tried to address the civil market.

The End To End debacle has simply accelerated the decline in fast jet work - they really were "shafted by the spearhead" in the end.

[Truck2005]

At the present, one VC 10 is in the white elephant. (That being one of the scrapped K4s). The Minor team will take over on completion of the last scrappie, in Feb 06.

The plan is for the Major team to move into the elephant in December. Lashams have one half of twin peaks until then.

I believe that they have an 18 month contract, whilst their hangar is being upgraded somewhere.

Two of the 10s were in one of the pods last week. It was only then you can see how large the building really is. Even with these types there was plenty of room.

The general feeling is, as you said, well and truly shafted by Ingram.

[tucumseh]

There is a further, less savoury aspect to the saga of these workshops becoming trading funds and agencies. That of stealth Defence Budget cuts.

Previously, a project manger would know, for example, that the modifications he was developing and buying had to be embodied. He may even know it was very expensive to do so. But he was never given money to do it because workshops would be funded separately from, say, the Rotary Wing Support Line. The PM simply had to fill in a tasking form and it happened.

When it was announced that hard cash had to change hands, those few PMs who understood the implications asked for compensatory provision. That is, split the existing money up among the projects. Fat chance. They were told to fund it from within their existing budget. This had already been salami sliced to the bone by beancounters who hadn’t a clue about the impact, so something had to give, big time. What gave was capability for users. Projects were delayed, cancelled or features struck from specifications. (And if you know how the “system” works, you’ll know that it is not the PM’s responsibility to make financial provision, but the Customers’).

Unhappily, some workshops sat back waiting for the work and cash to roll in. Didn’t happen. PMs who now had to arrange and manage embodiment contracts with no extra resources (money, financial, commercial and QA staffs etc) often took the easy route by awarding embodiment to whoever did the development and production. Not always, but often enough to make a noticeable impact on DARA’s order book.

[Neeps]

Please forgive an OASC candidate asking a few questions on this subject;

As far as I know, DARA is a product of the MoD and is a civvy based contractual company providing deep maintainence and repair on fixed wing and rotary aircraft for the military.

I think that the GR4 and GR7 were outsourced by DARA to St Athan for deep maintenence and have since been returned to on site engineering with RAF and civviy personnel. (Well the GR4 is on its way to RAF Marham)

My question is what is happening to the F3 and RW aircraft? Are we still going to outsource the deep maintenence on the RW aircraft to DARA if they are only speaking about closing their FJ capailities down by 2007? Am I right in saying that Fleetlands is a part of DARA which looks after the RW side of things?

Sorry if I am incorrect on any points, I'm learning and would appreciate any help on the above.

[DEL Mode]

Neeps

Major FJ maintenance has always been done at specialist facilities (Abingdon and St. Athan). The RAF and MoD have been doing it well for years, decades in fact. DARA was created when someone in Main Building had a brain fart one day, and thought that RAF St. Athan should be allowed to compete as an agency.

What is happening, is the Major work is being collapsed forward, onto the bases (Marham and Cottesmore).

The F3 is planned to be out of service soon, and is not therefore expected to require either upgrade or Major servicing in the future. (Note: - planned not will be - role on AY3).

[Neeps]

Thanks for the reply DEL Mode.

Has any concreate time scale been set down for the drawn down of the F3? Hasn't the OCU got a closure time of 2007? So, I take it that due to the fact we won't need deep maintenence due to the draw down then all general maintenence will be done on site at Leuchars and Leeming as is done now?

I'm not sure what you mean by role on the AY3.

[Truck2005]

I don.t know if anyone gets a programme called Dragons Eye outside Wales but on last week the Cottesmore CO was interviewed in HSF. Doing the whole thing the only uniform you saw was Bae or contractors.

What happened to the rolling forward to the RAF :suspect:

[the funky munky]

Neeps - Am I right in saying that Fleetlands is a part of DARA which looks after the RW side of things?

Mostly right Neeps, DARA Fleetlands at one time looked after 3rd line maintenance and modifications for the majority of RW types, (A109 and other COMA/COMR aicraft had always been done by external contract). With roll back Fleetlands stated they could carry out all depth work on Lynx SeaKing and Chinook.

Only one snag they basically under bid for the work by 1/2 so now are being supplemented by the guys and gals who used to be at 2nd line at Odiham, Wattisham and Yeovilton.

Still cynically speaking by underbidding they have ensured their survival.

All other rotary wing work will be done by expensive contract at other sites.

Which ever way you look at it DARA should never have been created. The previous 2 organisations functioned very well in in isolation.

Let the RAF outsource the fixed wing work and let the RN support helicopters, the Naval Aircraft Repair Organisation and its predecessors the RNAY/RNAWs were around since WW2. Then whn it all goes wrong we at least will have some helicopters to do all the dirty work.

[steve_cbe]

http://www.mymea.co.uk/capture.JPG

[Neeps]

Which ever way you look at it DARA should never have been created. The previous 2 organisations functioned very well in in isolation.

Am I right in saying that the Naval Aircraft Repair Organisation merged with the Royal Air Force Maintenance Group Defence Agency to form DARA?

Very interesting, and thank you for the information regarding the RW side of things. It is a great help. It may never come up in the interview, but it's always good to have a sound background knowledge me thinks.