FAA PPL issued on the back of CAA PPL......help

[Paris Dakar]

I know this has probably been done numerous times before but I can't seem to find the exact answer.

I have a UK CAA PPL which I renewed earlier this year - I also have a current Class ll medical. I have a FAA PPL based on my UK (issued by Orlando FSDO) licence, and I last flew in the US eight years ago.

My question is......................following the security changes implemented by the FAA, is my US licence still valid, or do I need to complete some new documentation before undertaking a BFR is the US?

Hope that makes sense? :ugh:

PD

[drauk]

Your license isn't currently valid, but if you do a BFR it will be. You don't need any documentation - you can go to the US and do your BFR without further formalities. Or you can do it elsewhere with an FAA instructor.

[Paris Dakar]

drauk,

Many thanks for this - that was the answer I was hoping for!

Kind regards,

PD :D

[andrewlt]

I'm not so sure

I think you need to make sure that (1) your address on the UK licence matches that on the FAA piggy back licence and (2) that the licence number on the UK licence is the same as on the piggy back licence. I think the CAA changed all the licence numbers a few years back when they introduced the new style of licence. You might be OK if your USA hirer doesn't cross check the licences for same address and same number, but I wouldn't rely on that.

[Speedtape]

You can update your information (change of address etc) online at FAA.gov. I think you can also have a new airman certificate mailed to you but it costs (cant quite remember how much)

[Paris Dakar]

andrewlt,

Hi, my address hasn't changed, and the X-ref. number on my FAA licence matches my PPL - so I should be ok.

Speedtape,

Ta much, you are right - you can get the new 'credit-card' style licence posted to your home add in return for parting with some $s.

PD

[IO540]

There is definitely a legal requirement to tell the FAA of a change of address within something like 30 days, but I don't know whether this applies to piggyback licenses too.

[slim_slag]

You only need to tell the FAA within 30 days if you are using your FAA licence. If you haven't exercised the privileges in the past 8 years you can have changed your address 10 times and not have busted any FAR.

The FAA are only allowed to charge you what it actually costs them to reissue your certificate, which right now is set at $2. If the reissue is on the basis of a foreign licence then you need to appear in person.

[skydriller]

I have the 'piece of paper' FAA licence issued on the back of my JAR-PPL, all addresses match etc.

Someone mentioned a 'new credit card' style licence introduced as a result of the "improved security measures". Sould I send off for one of these? Is it a requirement now?

I last flew in the US a year ago without any problems, and probably will not go back for a while.... but work does take me there sometimes (with zero notice!) and I would like to be able to pitch up and fly if I have the time off without any problems...

Regards, SD..

[slim_slag]

You can still use the paper licence. I think they are going to replace all of them with the plastic one, but not sure of the timeframe. The only thing that has changed recently is a requirement to carry photo id at all times you are using your certificate, so make sure you have your passport with you. I've also used a UK photo licence as ID in the US and nobody has cared - most of them probably think "UK" is a US state.

[Whopity]

The FAA will not change the address on your licence even when you notify them so dont expect the UK and FAA licence addresses to match up.

If you do try to get a "Duplicate" Certificate with the correct address its $2 and a form to Oklahoma, but then you have to go all around the loop again via the CAA and the FAA so that they can reissue the licence you already have. Even the Ops Inspector in the FSDO admitted they were a load of plonkers!

[The Nr Fairy]

If my memory serves correctly, an FAA PPL issued on the basis of a UK/JAR PPL says on it somewhere something to the effect of "valid as long as the UK/JAA one is".

My view, and that of others I've spoken to, is that the FAA one doesn't need a BFR - it remains valid as long as the UK one is.

Worth getting gospel from an FSDO, though - things may have changed.

[Arclite01]

It does need a BFR to revalidate.

Arc

[Whopity]

FAR-61.56 (d)
A person who has within the period specified in para (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a US Armed Force for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not acomplish the flight review required by this section.

So the issue is, does a non FAA pilot check qualify? That seems to differ depending on which FSDO you talk to!

[skydriller]

Whenever I have had the opportunity to fly over in the US thanks to work taking me there, every time at a different outfit (bar once), each time has only required a checkout with an instructor to go off on my own. Sometimes the checkout was less than an hour, sometimes a couple of hours, always a brief on the local area and manouvering/circuits/PFLs etc. To my knowledge I have never been with an FAA examiner, the FI signed my logbook and that was it...

...I have a FAA licence issued on the back of a valid JAR-PPL.
I dont know the rules, but can every place Ive flown with be wrong? I have pitched up each time saying "I just wanna fly, dual is OK, but if Im here long enough, solo?" Half the time I was told I could go off on my own I didnt have the time to come back and do so!! I guess Ive done this half a dozen times since Ive been flying, the last time I was over in the US was last year though.....


Regards, SD..

[Aussie Andy]

I fly 2~4 times a year in the US, mostly at the same place (http://www.wvfc.org). I agree that many places will just do a quick check and send you off, and it worked this way for me on many occasions, but a couple of times when asked "when was your last BFR" and on answering "we don't do BFRs" was then required to do one then and there :)

No drama really though, it's still effectively an hour in the a/c (plus an hour on the ground) and if done with good people is always of use and gets you "re-sync'd" with US practices...

Andy :ok:

[dublinpilot]

My view, and that of others I've spoken to, is that the FAA one doesn't need a BFR - it remains valid as long as the UK one is.

When I got mine, I asked the very nice man at the FSDO, this very question. He was quite adamant that I did need a BFR, both to activate it in the beginning, and then every 2 years to keep it current. He said that the fact that it was based on a foreign one made no difference to this. He seemed to know what he was talking about, and couldn't have been more helpful.

dp

[Aussie Andy]

I think the problem is that the people you rent from aren't sure, and typically aren't accustomed to dealing with foreign pilots (obviously with the exception of the specialist places e.g. in Florida)... so they err on the side of caution which to them means thinking of you exactly as they would a US FAA PPL... no current BFR, no fly!

Until / unless the nice man at the FSDO (who said the same to me) also says it to the nice man renting me the aircraft, this will often continue to be the case I suppose. They get that the US certificate is valid on the strength of the foreign license, but how are they supposed to grasp what is required for that foreign license to be valid, current etc?

This is my experience anyway FWIW - and again, it's not really a big hassle, is it?

Andy

[BEagle]

When I went along with a colleague to accompany him during a day of his hours building, the FAA instructor held up my colleague's FAA piece of paper in onehand and his UK licence in the other, stating:

"For this one (the FAA one) to stay valid, you just need to keep this one (the CAA one) current - and you don't need to do anything else."

[slim_slag]

General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, Order 8700.1 (http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/media/2_029_00.pdf) (A PDF)

As a point of emphasis, make clear to the
applicant that a flight review (see § 61.56) must be
administered by the holder of an FAA Flight Instructor
Certificate with the appropriate ratings before he/she
may exercise the privileges of his/her U.S. pilot
certificate. The proficiency checks administered by a
foreign flight instructor do not count as meeting the
flight review requirements of § 61.56.


Question 3: Does a person who gets issued a U.S.
private pilot certificate that was based on a foreign
private pilot or higher license level have to comply
with the flight review and recency of experience
requirements of 14 CFR part 61 before exercising the
privileges of his/her U.S. private pilot certificate? If
the person accomplished a flight review in his/her
foreign country with a foreign flight instructor or a
foreign-pilot examiner, will that suffice for the 14 CFR
§ 61.56(c) flight review?
Answer 3: Before a person exercises the privileges
of a U.S. pilot certificate, that person must be in
compliance with the appropriate pilot certification
requirements of 14 CFR part 61 (flight review
requirements, recency of experience requirements,
required logbook entries, etc.). The flight review must
have been administered by the holder of an FAA Flight
Instructor Certificate with the appropriate ratings
before the pilot may exercise the privileges of his/her
U.S. pilot certificate. A flight review/proficiency
check that was administered by a foreign flight
instructor or a foreign pilot examiner does not count as
meeting the flight review requirements of § 61.56(c).
(Ref. § 61.56(c)(1) and § 61.41(b).)

[Aussie Andy]

Ref. BEagles post above, all I can say is that they don't all react that way and it depends where you go, and how familiar they are in dealing with foreign pilots.

Ref. slim_slag above, the first quote seems to sound very much like what the CFI at the club I was renting from was arguing to the others who weren't sure what to do with me on the day...!

Andy :ok:

[Flyin'Dutch']

Slim Slag has it right.

Those are the rules.

That someone somewhere did not adhere to them or knew them does not make those folks right.

:ok:

[Paris Dakar]

Many thanks for the responses folks - it's interesting to see the varied experiences of BFR / no BFR.

I did my PPL at OBA in 95, I returned two years later and was required to do a BFR. I contacted Adrian a few weeks back (i'm going to Florida in Feb and wish to hire an aircraft for a few hours) and he confirmed that I would need to do a BFR.

Due to a family bereavement I'm flying out to Palm Springs in just over a week's time. I thought it might be nice to do a few hours flying in the area so I got my sister (who lives there) to contact an outfit at Bermuda Dunes Airport - they too have confirmed that a BFR is required. Interestingly, the guy she spoke to at BDA told her that the aircraft insurance would be void if I didn't have a current BFR.

PD

[Keef]

Everything I've read says you need a BFR, whether you have a standalone FAA ticket or a reciprocal one.

Every outfit I've ever rented from has had a "checkout" requirement too, so combining the checkout with a BFR (and an IPC if you have an IR) makes a lot of sense.

And don't forget renter's insurance - most decent renting outfits require you to have it. The minimum level costs about $220 a year.

[Aussie Andy]

Hi Keef, I don't know anythign about renters insurance - sounds like I should!? ...

[Keef]

Renters insurance - probably not a bad idea to get some. Some places insist on you having it.

I googled and came up with several firms offering it; most had websites that "needed attention" but Avemco and Aviation Insurance Resources (www.air-pros.com) seemed pretty straightforward.

[englishal]

You can normally pay an extra few dollars per hour to cover you for the uninsurable excess. At least thats what I did on a T182T, paid $5 per hour more to cover the $2500 excess.

BFR is required by the way, everything that is required by a normal FAA ticket holder is required by an FAA based-on ticket holder....

ta ta

[Paris Dakar]

Hi Keef,

Renters Insurance, interestingly, I only became aware of this after my sister spoke to the guy at Bermuda Dunes Aiport (see prev post).

He said that if I wanted to take an aircraft for a couple of hours it would be cheaper to take an instructor with me (40 bucks an hour on top of the $75 an hour for the aircraft) as the cost of the insurance would be in the region $250 (payable if I wanted to go solo)!!

And here I was thinking I might be able to do a spot of cheaper flying in California
:{

[englishal]

never heard of it before, what is it?

[slim_slag]

Usually, the extra $5 an hour goes into the FBO's pocket and they give vague promises that they will not come after you for the deductible. So no real protection there at all, and the insurance company may decide to come after you anyway so you have wasted $5.

Renter's insurance provides a more reassuring coverage of your deductible, and you also get some liability insurance thrown in. I have enough liability insurance in the States to keep any plaintiff happy and stop them coming after my house. It's purely a guess on how much that should be. Covering yourself for tens of millions is just too expensive, I assume most people will be happy with a fraction of that.

Make sure you understand subrogation.

You need to make sure you are covered for medical too, most UK off the shelf travel insurance will not cover you for light aircraft, but you can get coverage for extra premium.

Don't think you can return to the UK and get away with it, you cannot.

[Paris Dakar]

englishal,

The chap at Bermuda Dunes explained that it was to cover the cost of damage to the aircraft whilst aloft or on the ground as a result of pilot error.

PD

[englishal]

I see. Normally when I rent, the aircraft is covered by insurance (as stated in the rental agreement) , except for a $2500 excess. This will be waived if opting to pay an extra $5 per hour / $70 per 6 months......

I might investigate RI though. Medical I do through Traffords on my travel insurance policy....about £150 per year for me and the Mrs worldwide.....

[slim_slag]

englishal,

guessing that is a multi-trip travel policy. They usually have something like £2million coverage for liability, but the ones I've seen will exclude anything to do with flying unless you are a fare paying passenger. So if you pay the extra to remove the flying exclusion for medical purposes, do you also remove the exclusion for liability? If so, that would be an extremely cheap way of getting millions of dollars of liability coverage when flying in the US.