What do you use as the trigger for the roundout and flare?

[duir]

If a student in the circuit was having trouble establishing when they should roundout/flare, how should one approach this?

[GusHoneybun]

The problem with the flare is that what works for some people does not work for others. Unfortunately it's a judgement thing and as a result difficult to teach.

The best trigger I use for the flare is once they cross the threshold is to transfer their vision to the end of the runway. This helps keep the aircraft straight through the whole flare/landing business. Then to obviously keep the aircraft descending. When the runway edge, which they are noting in their periphery, is up to their shoulder level, close the throttle and smoothly pull back on the control column. Then they should keep the runway edge in the same perspective using progressive back pressure until the wheels settle down nicely (on the centre line if poss :p ). If they pull back too hard and it's not a balloon, then to hold that back pressure until they have the runway perspective again at shoulder level, and then apply back pressure as above. The control column is treated like being on a ratchet and should never be pushed forwards in the flare.

If it all turns to poo, full power, carb heat as required and climb away.

All of this is first demo'd with the patter and the stude following through. If after a few attempts they still haven't got the hang of it another demo.

Like I said, it really does depend on a person to person basis. Some people take to it like a ducks to water others need a bit more work. However, in the end everyone get's it right so keep plugging away.

[Sleeve Wing]

With you all the way, Gus.

At threshold, look at far end.
Attempt to reach it without touching the ground.
Without power, you're sure to touch somewhere before the end

Touchdown point is then dictated purely by speed.
Correct approach speed, correct touchdown point.
Too fast, too far down the runway.

The runway edge at shoulder height technique is great too, in fact virtually the only height reference when night landing.

Rgds, Sleeve

[Whopity]

That describes the method, but the instructor must demonstrate to the student what is required so that the student can see the picture.

Then alterrnate Demonstrate, Teach, Practice until they master the art.

[FlyingForFun]

Agree absolutely with the general principal of what Gus says.

I teach to wait until you think you're going to hit the runway, then shift vision to the end of the runway (or the middle of the runway if we're using the big runway), then judge your height above the runway. If you now appear to be far too high (which you invariably will be), go back to flying the right attitude for a couple more seconds, then repeat. Once you are at the correct height above the runway, raise the nose and flare as Gus described.

The next question is what is the "correct height above the runway". Having a big runway helps here. After landing, take control from the student and use power to maintain speed to slightly below Vr. Get the student to look to the end of the runway and note how the runway looks, paying particular attention to the perspective of the edge of the runway. If there's enough runway remaining, now raise the nose and get the student to observe that although the amount of the runway he can see has changed, the perspective of the runway hasn't. Explain to the student that as he begins to flare and then continues to hold off, the nose will rise, so the amount of runway visible will change, but his aim is to maintain the height above the runway by maintaining the perspective that he's now looking at.

The most important thing, though, is to be positive with (almost) every student on every flight at this stage. Remember when you were learning to land, remember that the highs and lows are natural, and that everyone has to work hard to learn to land consistantly, so even if the student has a bad flight, try to finish the de-brief on a good note. The only exception would be a student who is seriously over-confident.

Haven't heard the runway edge at the shoulders before, at least not for daytime flying, but I can see that it works. At night, I teach to let the edge lights rise to the level of your ears, which I guess is pretty much the same thing.

As Gus said, though, everyone's different, so what works for one student (or one instructor) might not work for the next.

FFF
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[CaptAirProx]

Also, if the stude wears glasses, its worth establishing if they are varifocals or not. Cos to get someone to learn the flare with them on, 8 times out of ten the will not crack it. Get them to use bi-focals to learn the art first.

One thing I have learnt is it can often be the most simplist of reasons why they can't crack it but it needs lateral thinking from the instructor to find it. Explore every concept in you mind whilst they are flying and see if you can elliminate them one by one.

Thats why being instructors is so rewarding.........Is it not??

[skydriller]

Tell your student to:






....... keep flying towards the ground when stabilised on the approach and keep glancing over to you.......:cool:






......watching your knuckles as they rest lightly on/near the yolk and your facial expression........:=







...... When your knuckles turn white and a look of abject terror starts to appear on your face......:eek:







.....PULL BACK the yolk and Flare...:suspect: ...I SAID FLARE!!!!!:mad: :mad: :ouch:



Regards, SD......:} :p

[BEagle]

How to judge whether Bloggs has sorted out the flare?

Sphincter pucker - that's how. When the botty orifice starts going half-a-crown-sixpence and we're still descending, that's when I take control and go around!

[Grounded So Stack]

FlyingForFun,
I teach to wait until you think you're going to hit the runway
This may work, but only if your student has a cautious height perception. If they have no concept of their height agl then this is very likely to end them up in trouble (esp. if they then convert to a bigger type using the same technique) with a heavy landing or worse.

I'd go with the End of the Runway Vs. Peripheral horizon technique everyday - but it's the least exact science of anything we teach;)

GSS

[Bodie]

What I say is this. When lining up to take off, note the height of the aircraft above the ground and the picture straight ahead.

When flying the final approach, I say "When the reference point fills the windscreen, fly the aircraft level and transfer your attention to the end of the runway"

Etc etc..

Bodie

[duir]

I have a particular student that flies a very stable approach right on the money but I seem to be unable to get them to roundout and flare. Inevitably despite trying all of the above methods they seem to just keep aiming at the runway, nose down and I always have to give elevator input.

[Grounded So Stack]

Duir,
It seems like the problem is with the flare-point recognition. One method i have used to get round this is to:
a. Demonstrated a good flare &landing.
b. Let the student fly most of the approach (for his/her practice) then take control and get the stude to follow-through and say 'now' when they think you should flare. (obviously, jump in if they say nothing!)

This separates the recognition from the handling and can work in some instances. When you think that they've got it hacked, emphasise the smooth but swift transition to the flare attitude with simultaneous idling of power.

Keep practicing but if it isn't working that day, don't let the stude get to down-hearted or hung-up on it - it will 'click' at some point. ;)

GSS :ok:

[Oktas8]

duir - are the student's eyes at the correct height - ie same as yours?

[duir]

Tricky to set the right eye level in our 152s as the seats do not adjust much. I have given the student a cushion so that we have the same eye level.

[mad_jock]

I have had this a few times

I know it might sound daft but tell them not to land.

Get them to do a couple of circuits and tell them you want them to fly down the runway just above it just above stall. Starting from the aiming point to just after the mid point.

Then once they have that cracked tell them that you will be puting some power input into the throttle and when you do hold the attitude. Then the next time pull the throttle back to idle once they are skimming down the runway and tell them to just hold the attitude. Its not unusal for them to cock up the skimming and land anyway and for it suddenly to click what they are meant to do. Its quite a good exercise to stop ballooning as well.

The point that i used to tell them to start pitching up was when the runway appeared to start moving towards them. Pitch to a almost level attitude while transferring there eyes to the end of the runway. Then as they come down and start trying to skim along the runway take the power off and it will land. And on the cessna 15x and PA38's i wouldn't be to worried about letting them bang it in. Just protect the nose wheel and make sure they don't tail strike by over flaring. You can drop the plane from 10ft up onto its main wheels with no damage apart from the students pride. I used to just laugh when they did it.

As previous poster said the biggest problem is a mind one, if the student thinks that its a huge problem they will start trying to hard. A laugh and a joke is the way forward. A medical neck collar is always good for a laugh. When you brief them don't have it on and when you walk out to the plane have it on.

MJ

[FlyingForFun]

GSS - that is a very good point! Haven't had anyone do that yet (but see my reply to SD below!), all my students seem to be ground-shy (as I was when I was a student). If I come across someone who tries to fly me into the ground, rather than rounding out too high, I will have to develop another technique.

MJ, I know several instructors who like that technique. My own instructor tried it on me when I was a student. I'm not a big fan of it.... mainly because it didn't work for me as a student. I didn't know where to look when I was trying to land, so therefore I also didn't know where to look when trying to fly just above the runway either. It can be useful with some students, and I've used it once or twice myself, but it's not something I use regularly. Do you (or anyone else who uses it) have much success with it?

SD, many a true word said in jest..... When a student first gets into the circuit, after demoing a circuit to them, I patter them through the circuit, including the flare. Once they're starting to get confident, I reduce and then stop the patter. One particular student tended flare nicely at first, but then started to do what GSS said, and fly into the ground, when I stopped pattering. Eventually I figured out that he was using my pattering him to look to the distance as a cue for starting the flare. If I'd told him to look to the distance at 300', that's where he'd have flared, I swear!!! As soon as I figured this out, we landed and I de-briefed him on it, and his landings are much more consistant now!

FFF
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[Aussie Andy]

I remember being taught that at about 40' I should commence the flare ... but what does 40' look like? I was told double-decker bus height (I think) but that still didn't really help. In the end it was trial - and - error! One day, it just works.... then went through phases (including post-PPL) when it didn't always work, and had renewed trouble when using very wide (MIL) runway over at Benson initially. All seems OK these days as long as I stay current.

I guess the challenge for instructors is that everyone learns differntly?

Andy :ok:

[Tinstaafl]

I've often used flying along the runway for students having trouble transitioning from approach to hold-off or those not holding off long enough.

I think it's important to first ensure the student can arrive at the correct height, position and speed consistantly before worrying too much about the roundout etc.

[mad_jock]

I have managed to get every student who has had problems through using that technique. Usually in 1 max 3 sessions.

The other things to watch for is that they are completly ready for the circuit anyway. I am a great believer in the fact that the circuit is only for teaching the landing and circuit SA/RT. If they can't fly striaght and level, climb and descend while turning and in trim for the full range of configurations they shouldn't be near the circuit. An extra couple of lessons in the GH area making sure they can quickly and easily configure the aircraft for the different stages of the circuit will save time and effort later. I know its boring for the instructor but its what you are payed for.

Tinstaafi has it spot on. They have to be able to fly to a point with a configuration at a speed. If they can't do that and be trimmed out doing relatively little flying. The whole thing becomes very dynamic. Nightmare for the student and would mean I would have to uncross my arms which just instint on.

With the down the runway thing try not to patter it unless you are demonstrating it. And remember to give them a break (from flying) when you are debriefing in flight for the next one. Let them concentrate on what you are telling them by taking control. Then giving it them back once they want it back. Don't worry about the point where they manage to get it flying along the runway at the right speed to begin with. Let them work on it then when thay have that tell them you want it done by the aiming point. And make sure they are not flying the PAPI's, that can screw them up as well. The plane is to flat with to much power on. And when they pull it off it yaws more than they expect.

The runway appearing to move towards you is a good one for judging the point. Its very hard to discribe for me, but next time you are coming into land try and notice when the runway starts to "move" instead of being a lump in front of you. When it appears to start moving towards you see if thats when you normally would start to flare. It is for me and it works in SEP's as well as turbo props. I use it with fence speeds of 130knts and it works fine with them as well.

My patter for the flare.


When it starts to "move" lift the nose slowly to near flat as you start looking at the end of the runway, as you close to the runway pitch up gently start trying to glide it and not land while slowly reducing the power to idle. All the time looking at the end using your feet to keep it pointing in a striaght line down the center line. And if you drift gently drop the wing in the direction you need to correct. Then once the picture is right for a landing (demo picture) just hold it there and keep it going in a striaght line and wait for the bump. And remember we arn't finished until we are taxiing so don't let go of everything on the ground. And please note I will be more impressed with a go around actioned by yourself than a hairy landing. If you do decide to go around I may take control and set it up again for you if there is enough runway left. Any questions.



If they take the power off before the nose comes above level they will stall it in and end up over flaring So watch for that.

MJ

[duir]

Thanks MJ, that's really good stuff. I have one in the circuit this weekend. Will try these methods and feedback later.

[Tinstaafl]

There's a lot happening - and changing - during the flare & hold-off, with an concomittent effect on the required control inputs. Not only is there a lot happening & changing but the rate that things are happening & changing is also....erm.....changing. To make matters worse the rate of change is also changing.

No wonder it's difficult for the poor bloody student to perceive, interpret, decide & react to it all. I'm a firm advocate of limiting flying at this stage to calm or nearly calm weather conditions with a reasonable horizon *and* minimal turbulence. Think very early mornings.... :ugh:

You can help relieve the student's high workload by separating a lot of the tasks over time ie split the roundout, power reduction, hold off, landing & rollout into completely separate items. This will reduce many of the dynamically changing things that would otherwise occur.

First get the the student to transition to flying level over the runway. This will also help you judge his/her judgement about their flare heights & them to learn the control inputs needed to achieve level flight at the correct height over the runway.

Once they're able to fly stabilised S&L over the centreline have them (or even you, if necessary) *gradually* reduce power. Emphasise holding off & keeping straight while this is happening. Eventually the student will be able to get to idle power while still airborne & straight.

Get the student to continue doing more of the same while the speed reduces with the power at idle.

Then focus on control after touchdown etc

[Aussie Andy]

concomittent - had to look it up! Anyway, it's concomitant :)

[Tinstaafl]

Didn't think it looked correct but couldn't be bothered spell checking. That's what I get for spelling after drinking quite a few beerz.

[mad_jock]

As a matter of interest out of the collective instructors posting and reading this how much time did you spend on your FCI actually discussing teaching landings?

I did 2 demo's from the instructor of pattered approaches then pattered 2 myself. Then one day time in the test and that was it.

The methods/ way I teach it were all learned on the fly or by talking to the CFI. And it took about 10 students for me to settle down into the method I use now.

MJ