Are you a French ATCO based in CDG? [Archive]

Sean Dell

29th Oct 2005, 19:50

Caudillo

29th Oct 2005, 20:06

CDG is to airports what the Italians are to roads.

I know exactly what you mean SD..

fly bhoy

30th Oct 2005, 02:49

'Air France you must taxi even faster'

At least he said it in english!!!:} ;)

FB:ok:

Squawk7777

30th Oct 2005, 03:12

Have you ever been to ORD? If you taxi too slowly you'd cause the whole airport to shut down. :rolleyes: Ever seen SWA taxying?

Ahhh, the typical French bashing ...

JobsaGoodun

30th Oct 2005, 07:01

Are you sure it was Flybe?

They've not had any Air France liveried aircraft since their franchise contract ended in March '05. Maybe it was Cityjet? If it was Flybe then it would have been heading in/out of T1 as this is where Flybe operate their EXT services to/from.

Sean Dell

30th Oct 2005, 08:35

Jersey call sign - but that's not the point I'm making!

Any worthwhile replies greatly accepted!

NG708

30th Oct 2005, 09:58

Ahhh, the typical French bashing ...

Perhaps you would't have said the same after their appalling controlling killed the Streamline First Officer a few years ago.

Appalling controlling, arrogance and the utter refusal to allow the rest of the the airport users to know what is happening, if they don't speak French, that is.:mad:

Have had to give way to Air France and French Post there many times as they simply refuse to stop or to 'hear' the clearance of another aircraft, if it has right of way ahead of them.

I've been there many times when this exact instance has happened. They couldn't care less and the lack of professionalism on the part of the Air France pilots, who should know better than to 'cut' up other aircraft is saddening to say the least.

SilentHandover

30th Oct 2005, 13:57

You could always become less neanderthal and learn to speak French!!!

Squawk7777

30th Oct 2005, 14:18

Perhaps you would't have said the same after their appalling controlling killed the Streamline First Officer a few years ago.

From what I remember the crew did not really maintain a sterile cockpit.

Now we getting into the foreign ATC issue again... If you are at an unfamiliar airport/country/environment be extra careful. Who's more arrogant? The person expecting the world to turn around him/her and unwilling to adapt a different environment, perhaps?

and yes, I fly into places where I don't speak the native language and where there is no ground radar. And I don't feel unsafe at all.

Funny how this comes up mainly with France.

Sean Dell

30th Oct 2005, 15:09

The bottom line is - French arrogance - I would like to think that if French was the international language of the air - I would make an effort to speak it - BUT IT ISN'T! The French ATCO's look after their own, as do the Italians and the Spanish. Combine this with a disregard to basic safe practice and you have a dangerous combination ! But hey that's just called French bashing .... We'll revist this time and again over the years but nothing will change.

euskaldun

30th Oct 2005, 16:05

I work in an International environment and I can tell you the Brits are the most arrogant of all of us . They expect everybody to speak their language even when being a minority in a meeting just because they simply think that English is the aviation language . French aswell as Spanish , Russian , etc .... are official ICAO languages and when it comes to safety issue in ATC , the most easily understood language should be use .
Appalling controlling, arrogance and the utter refusal to allow the rest of the the airport users to know what is happening, if they don't speak French, that is.
In that case I suppose that most users on the frequency could tell what was going on and most importantly , the pilot and the controller concerned . I can imagine that highly educated pilots like you ;) can easily learn French , if not to be used in your cockpit , at least to be able to order a pint when staying at a French hotel ; or do you expect staff to speak English as well:D

NG708

30th Oct 2005, 16:09

'SilentHandover'

Perhaps I could also learn to speak to the language of every country I fly to in case of similar problems;)

At the moment that would mean I need French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, Greek, Dutch and Czech! As I already get by in German and Spanish, Personally, I think I'm doing quite well:=

However nice a multi-lingual boom might be, perhaps CDG could realise the dangers they are creating by reducing situational awareness, which has already cost the life of one person.

When you've personally witnessed French Post 737's cutting you up, going the wrong way down a one-way taxiway, accelerating, then cutting back in fromt of you, to avoid having to taxi behind a turbo-prop, you'll know how I feel.

'Squawk7777'

Funny how it DOES always come up with France. Don't know why as I don't feel as exposed when flying into major airports in, say, Spain or Germany.

'Euskaldun'

The 'international' environment of an aircraft cockpit is a bit different. To understand the relative positions of other aircraft at a very busy international airport is hard enough in your own language. To learn enough of each language to understand this is simply not possible, as most British pilots, working for the typical LoCo airline, would have to be fluent in over a dozen. No offense, but the amount of language needed to order dinner in a foreign restaurant is much different, as is the pressure on you at the time.

Eva San

30th Oct 2005, 17:44

The other night, I was taxiing to 09R for departure, up November taxiway when I spotted a Air France liveried Flybe RJ100 taxiing towards us at WELL over a sensible taxiing speed (by day) - I would suggest well in excess of 45kts! I remarked to the 'excellent' ground controller who had failed to mention this aircraft to us - having cleared us to K2 to hold- that we would be giving way to the 'Fast moving Air France'. To which the controller remarked 'Air France you must taxi even faster' and sarcastically thanked us for our remarks.

My point is ARE CDG ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING FAST TAXIING AT NIGHT TO CAUSE ANOTHER ACCIDENT OR ARE THEY JUST VERY POOR AT CONTROLLING A/C WHO HAVE A TRICLORE PAINTED ON THE SIDE? Discuss

I'm not a ATCO based in CDG ... Just a french ATCO.

Do you really think that a controller would encourage fast taxiing at night ?

Here's my two cents for what it's worth :

What I understand of it, based only on your report is that you probably misundertood the situation and the reaction of the controller.

I'll explain that : it is a common mistake amongst french people speaking in english to use "must" instead of "should". Try replacing it: "Air France you should taxi even faster !" It would make a lot more sense to me, being a sarcastic way of telling this guy that he was taxing WAY TOO fast... and thanking you was probably genuine as the controller wasn't expecting that aircraft to be at that position as it was due to excessive taxi speed.

And I can add that my colleagues in CDG have taken very seriously the Streamline accident...

prospero

30th Oct 2005, 18:16

Gentlemen
As a Brit living abroad I have learned to apologise frequently for British arrogance. Judging by this thread I won't be stopping anytime soon!!
Perhaps just once it would be nice if we tried to see things from other peoples point of view.
Prospero

cavelino rampante

31st Oct 2005, 02:18

ATC at CDG is so poor at times its shocking.

Caudillo

31st Oct 2005, 12:42

woodpecker

31st Oct 2005, 12:48

Departing 08R, over the top of the hill there was a car coming the other way. He rapidly left the runway to the right.

The incident was reported to the CDG controller who simply refused to accept there was anything on the runway (which was also the French response to the ASR)!

Squawk7777

31st Oct 2005, 22:42

Funny how it DOES always come up with France. Don't know why as I don't feel as exposed when flying into major airports in, say, Spain or Germany.

NG708: Because you are a hater, perhaps? I would like to see you posting this in the Latin America forum [from a pure ATC point of view] and see what reaction you get. This has nothing to do about ATC issues, it is mainly about bashing a certain nationality/language/culture. I don't see your argument making any sense when it comes to a differnt country/language. You either understand a language or you don't. What does it mean to feel "as exposed"? You are either exposed or not. If there are security concerns [ATC standarts], why are you not filing a report?

Sean Dell: Sorry bro, but you should check the facts before posting. English is NOT the only international language of the air. Who's more arrogant now? The person who only sees his language as the ONLY language? If other cultures/languages bother you, you better stay home and avoid this horrible world with its diversities.

Life gives you a choice. You can either accept "other ways" and adjust accordingly or you can lower yourself to the level of a two-year old that starts crying as soon as things are not his/her way.

Eva San

1st Nov 2005, 11:12

Eva San - you refer to sarcasm, all well and good - but why do you think there is so much emphasis placed on strict RT, especially amongst controllers? I'm sure everyone here can take a joke, however when it comes to aviation, ambiguous intstructions, or even misunderstood ones can kill - regardless of the language.

Prove me wrong.

The original poster asked for a worthwhile reply and I consider that I was pretty much the only one doing it... Apart from "French ATC sucks" there wasn't much to read so I'm offering an explanation (which could be by the way totally wrong who knows) and what do I get ? A great morale lesson !

Sorry, but I was not trying to justify anything or to count points: CDG ATC 1- Sean Dell 0. So don't ask me to prove you wrong because I totally agree that a strict respect of Phraseology is essential as far as instructions are concerned...

alexban

1st Nov 2005, 11:40

squawk7777 :which is the other international language of the air that you know of? I would be interested to know about it,as we had no training in other than english (as airline pilots),so maybe we can not fly in those areas where they use the language you know about.:confused:
And,by the way ,what is with this user name of yours? You like seeing 77 on the transponder? Hmm,I imagine you are on the ground while seeing that.

VectorLine

1st Nov 2005, 12:02

Alexban
From ICAO Executive CommitteeCurrently there are six official ICAO languages, with Arabic and Chinese having recently been added and Recommendation in Annex 10 recommends that —Pending the development and adoption of a more suitable form of speech for universal use in aeronautical radiotelephony communications, the English language should be used
Note the phrase is: "English language should be used" not "English language must be used."
:8

Squawk7777

1st Nov 2005, 15:24

which is the other international language of the air that you know of? I would be interested to know about it,as we had no training in other than english (as airline pilots),so maybe we can not fly in those areas where they use the language you know about

Hmm, lemme see. Latin America, Russia, China, Europe.

euskaldun

2nd Nov 2005, 03:55

Perhaps I could also learn to speak to the language of every country I fly to in case of similar problems

At the moment that would mean I need French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, Greek, Dutch and Czech! As I already get by in German and Spanish, Personally, I think I'm doing quite well

By the way , why should French Post pilots speak in English when they fly within French airspace and controllers on the ground speak French like them . Maybe the "foreign"pilot should try to adapt to the situation and not the local pilot to the foreigner .
Think about that : France is a central (big) point not to say THE central point of air traffic in Europe . Wouldn't it be wise to learn a bit of French , knowing that you are very likely to overfly the country and that French controllers and pilots like to use their own language which is one of the ICAO languages unlike German ...;) for example.
How do they work in Spain or Italy ? Do they always speak English ? I doubt it !!!
I tend to agree with a lot of people on this thread : all these complaints just for the fact that we are talking about France and French people.

NG708

2nd Nov 2005, 09:06

Euskaldun

If you were a pilot, you wouldn't need to even ask that question. It's called spatial awareness.

Your proposals are absolutely impractical. How many years training in each langugae would you make a pilot have before being allowed to fly to another country?

As for Squawk7777, We're not in Latin America here. We're in Europe.

The argument for speaking one language has been made time and again. Your narrowmindedness and refusal to see any other point of view other than your own or labelling it as 'French-bashing' just shows up your ignorance.

Squawk7777

2nd Nov 2005, 14:30

We're not in Latin America here. We're in Europe.

So this topic applies to Europe only (and only applies to French-ATC)? Who's being narrow-minded now? As opposed to you I adjust and act accordingly to changes in operation in a "foreign environment". I don't see that as being ignorant. I see your argument as "French-bashing" because his topic mostly comes up when flying into France, and your refusal to accept that things are different and can be safe.

Other point of view? The few points you mentioned and my replies to them haven't been picked up by you and discussed further. Seems to me you're just scratching the surface to blame a certain language/country.

spatial awareness? It seems like if one factor is missing out of your equation you're unable to see the big picture? C'mon! You can't be for real! What happens when you fly into non-radar environment? The military on UHF? Seperate tower freq's with intersecting runways/approach paths?

Unable to adjust? Certainly not a professional attitude!

Jerricho

2nd Nov 2005, 14:39

:rolleyes:

And here we go again.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165980

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147974

And my favorite (there is some good discussion in this one :ok: )

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103933

Squawk7777

2nd Nov 2005, 15:39

Jerricho! What's up with this? It took you way too long ... ;) Hope all is well!

7 7 7 7

Dualbleed

2nd Nov 2005, 15:52

My first language is not english, far from it. But I still speak very good english. It is sad to see how bad french, italian know their english. If you can't get your finger out and learn a language (english) you should not be in ATC. And for sure not flying.
Learning another language is EASY. Only stupid and lazy people cannot speak at least two or more.

greek-freak

2nd Nov 2005, 16:11

Have you ever speculated how hard the English ATCOs would be to understand if the official RT language was French?

Just a thought, I do agree on the French arrogance issue however.

Caudillo

2nd Nov 2005, 17:15

Only stupid and lazy people cannot speak at least two or more.

Quite possibly the most moronic statement I've read on this site - and that takes some beating.

CarbHeatIn

2nd Nov 2005, 17:36

And SNN could insist on all the Oceanic traffic conversing in Irish:rolleyes:

Jerricho

2nd Nov 2005, 20:09

Have you ever speculated how hard the English ATCOs would be to understand if the official RT language was French?

Sure have........and if it was decreed tomorrow that there was to be one universal language to be spoken in aviation and I had to learn Chinese, I certainly would. Unfortunately, I don't think this is ever going to happen.

('Sup 7777 me old mucker........you be nice now.)

euskaldun

2nd Nov 2005, 21:03

My first language is not english, far from it
There was no need to tell us that ; we guessed ;)
You'd better go and have a few more lessons if you want to write stupid comments like Only stupid and lazy people cannot speak at least two or more
Your whole intervention on this thread was just pure "gibberish" translated into quite good English words but not language :E

But I still speak very good english
And who are you to decide ???? Let the others decide and try to do better next time :ok:

chiglet

2nd Nov 2005, 21:37

carbheatin.....
To be pedantic..[who mee?] it is "Shanwick" aka Shannon/Prestwick Oceanic ans although "Gailic" [sp] is spoken in both Eire and Scotland I [as an ignorant Englishman] don't think that those Celtic languages are the same.
Of course, I stand to be educated/corrected :ok:
watp,iktch

CarbHeatIn

3rd Nov 2005, 10:12

Hi chiglet,

Notwithstanding the significant traffic SNN centre deals with via VHF prior/post track entry/exit; afaik SNN also has the exclusive communications function for "Shanwick"; our scottish cousins are left to do the real work??

And yes, you are perfectly correct in saying there are some subtle differences between Scots and Irish "Gaelic" (pronounced like a homosexual sex act:p ), yet these are quite "pedantic" differences like a different spelling for the same word.

:ok:

Eva San

3rd Nov 2005, 11:50

Just a thought, I do agree on the French arrogance issue however.

My first language is not english, far from it. But I still speak very good english. It is sad to see how bad french, italian know their english. If you can't get your finger out and learn a language (english) you should not be in ATC. And for sure not flying.
Learning another language is EASY. Only stupid and lazy people cannot speak at least two or more.

As proud as a frenchman can be I still have to admit that if there were some olympic arrogance contests we would never reach the gold medal ! That would be way too easy for people like Dualbleed to be top of the podium !

coolbeans

4th Nov 2005, 06:24

Ok everybody just chill , or I start doing all my work in broad glaswegian, show all you froggies and feignin sasanachs a hard language to follow.

:=

Carbheatin

"subtle differences between Scots and Irish "Gaelic" (pronounced like a homosexual sex act ), yet these are quite "pedantic" differences like a different spelling for the same word. "

Dont you be starting now

yodellernomore

4th Nov 2005, 08:29

Interesting thread, this!

Multiple languages on any ATC frequency will, I say again WILL cause loss of situational awareness to flight crews without those specific language skills. Stop, punkt, arrete...

This has lead to several airproxes (read "near disasters") in a major aerodrome just to the east of France, and many more in busy upper airspace in that region.

There must be one language, and one language only in these situations - English.

All involved in international aviation activities in Europe must speak and understand it clearly. To argue otherwise is to invite eventual catastrophe.

I love the French, and their language, but safety must come first, at all other costs.

Yodeller out.

ant1

4th Nov 2005, 09:10

See this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147974&highlight=cdg+and+english+and+language)

TCAS FAN

4th Nov 2005, 22:01

Woodpecker

You mention an ASR, if you are operating on a UK AOC, you, as the aircraft commander, are required to personally file a Manadatory Occurrence Report (ANO Article 142, nee 117) with the CAA. If this had been done it would have been forwarded to DGAC France (ie their CAA) for investigation. Did your ASR go to CDG or was the response received from DGAC?

From past experience (investigating incidents, not causing them!) I have found DGAC to be very thorough with their investigation process. Please advise where the response to the incident came from.

Cher Eva San

Formidable!

Amities,

TCAS FAN