Reaching clearance limit whilst on heading

[Afterglow]

Hello there, a quick question you nice ATCO people maybe able to answer, the other day we were flying along and told to route direct to point x which was the clearance limit for our destination, subsequently we given a radar heading, if we weren't passed over to the next sector before reaching abeam point x (busy freq etc), what do you do?

a) Take up the hold at point x as on the plate
b) Continue with the radar assigned heading
c) Something else!!

Thanks Aglow

[VectorLine]

b)

But of course, do your best to get in on the freq and ask...

Was the point NEDUL?

[Not Long Now]

Bit tricky that one. I think common sense would suggest try to call ATC to check if they want you to continue on the heading or to hold at the clearance limit, but then if you can't get in on the RT... Personally, if I've put you on a heading, I want you to stay on it until told otherwise, and if that means you go sailing past the hold it's mostly my fault for forgetting to tell you otherwise.
Sorry if that's a bit vague.

[5milesbaby]

Agree with both the above answers, stay on the assigned heading as we are expecting you to and the confliction that needed the heading in the first place may still not be resolved.

My guess would be NEDUL too V-L as I know we occasionally have this problem, FYI Afterglow, if it is NEDUL, Solent and us occasionally agree heading transfers to separate the inbounds and outbounds with radar rather then the restrictive use of procedural levels. I wouldn't ever tell you that this has been agreed so you would never know as to why the heading was needed so by staying on it and trying to get in on the RTF is definately the safest solution.

[Megaton]

Had similar problems with TIPOD inbound to LPL so (moderately) interested in the answer.

[Afterglow]

Thanks guys/gals, the place is indeed NEDUL, and I was indeed refering to the case when it's so busy it's hard to get a word in edgeways, when you guys are maxed out.

Nearly happened yesterday which is why I asked, 5MB thanks, in that case would one solution be to transfer ourselves to solent and explain the situation, (only once in their airspace) so maybe they could speak to you/your assistant on the phone, thus avoiding any probs in their airspace? Or is that a definite no-no?

The skipper I was with reckoned to continue on heading (correct) and sqwark 7600 as we've had a comms failure of sorts! I'm personally not sure of the 76 bit though!

[5milesbaby]

People say to select emergency codes on a busy frequency if you need help, I can see both pro's and cons of this. Yes, you will get our attention and we will deal with the situation, but remember that we will also get a shock on seeing the flashing squalk which may put us off our flow and distract us from far more inportant tasks. I would say its best not to call Solent off your own initiative as the Swanwick controller may then just try and call you and waste RTF time when you have already gone, or Solent do some active controlling that Swanwick weren't expecting.

If the time yesterday you experienced this was between 8 and 8:30am local time then just sitting there waiting to be called/get a call in continuing your heading was the best way to cope with the situation. It was a nasty little session that I was glad to be out of and just watching from aside!

[Afterglow]

It was then 5MB – did sound quite stressful for the controller, thanks for all the replies, no doubt now! Hats off to you in ATC, I don’t think I could do your job, and your work is always appreciated especially when the workload is high!

Safe vectoring,

Aglow

[VectorLine]

The very case I was thinking of!

I think I can even recall the heading (020?) because I called Solent to ask if they would accept you on it. I was planner and a trainee/mentor were working radar.

It was a tad busy and I'm glad you asked the question here and not on the RT! ;) I hadn't really thought of this before.

Regards

VL

[bookworm]

The more interesting case would be a radio failure in such a situation. What would you expect the aircraft to do, with a comms failure about a minute from the clearance limit?

[tired-flyboy]

Surely the book answer to that one is

....continue on the assigned radar heading for 3 minutes and then continue on the flight planned route...

[bookworm]

....continue on the assigned radar heading for 3 minutes and then continue on the flight planned route...

...by which time you're 2 minutes past your clearance limit...

Turn round and go back to it or assume that the vector was to the next obvious point and pick it up from there? (presuming that I'm at or behind ETA so I'll fly an approach without holding at the "designated landing aid")

[cuddlybear]

vl - don't when your medical's due but there was no trainee on that session that i could see

[DFC]

When is a clearance limit not a clearance limit?

This situation highlights perhaps a need to look at procedures or if not then R/T.

The funny thing is that when being vectored past NEDUL by ACC, pilots are jumpy about passing the "clearance limit" but when Solent does the exact same having say got the aircraft 10nm before NEDUL on a heading to one side of the airway then everyone is happy - no difference in the R/T, no verbal removal of the clearance limit restriction in the current clearance just the same situation on a different frequency!

Sometimes, Approach will say "Vectoring for ILS etc etc xxnm from touchdown" and everyone knows what's happening but always before nedul is passed.

Regards,

DFC

[VectorLine]

cuddlybear
Well, it must have happened twice on Friday then, because the OJTI had just taken it from the Trainee when I made the call to Solent.

Doesn't change the answer though!
----------------------------------
When is a clearance limit not a clearance limit?
When you are issued with a heading.

For example: Inbound Heathrow, issued OCK3B = Clearance Limit is OCK. Aircraft calls terminal sector and is issued headings to fly - passing OCK, they don't turn around and head off into the OCK hold.

In the case of EGHI, the 'clearance limit' is stated because you are not following a STAR (although, I think there are some in the pipeline?)

[Strepsils]

bookworm -
...by which time you're 2 minutes past your clearance limit...

It makes no difference, you continue as per your flight planned route, doesn't matter what your clearance limit was.:ok:

[JayeRipley]

Had similar problems with TIPOD inbound to LPL so (moderately) interested in the answer.

So you aren't in the dark:-

If you are inbound to TIPOD from either the IOM or LIFFY direction and a westbound departure from Liverpool gets airborne from Rwy 27, quite often Area resolve the confliction rather than Liverpool apc (depending on the position of the inbound). In this case Liverpool will put the outbound on runway heading and negotiate a downwind heading for the inbound together with a lower level for Area to descend to.

I would normally tell the inbound the reason for the heading so that you know you aren't going to the holding fix, however workload can sometimes prevent this.

Hope this helps the one interested in TIPOD!

[Megaton]

Thanks. Interest is academic now since have flown to LPL for the last time :)