8 years for ATC murder

[Techman]

ZURICH, October 26 (RIA Novosti) -- The Supreme Court of Zurich sentenced Russian Vitaly Kaloyev to eight years in jail Wednesday for the premeditated murder of a Swiss air traffic controller, but his defense said it would appeal, and Russian prosecutors said they would seek Kaloyev's extradition.

The sentence will include the 610 days during which Kaloyev, who lost his wife, daughter, and son in an air crash in 2002, has already been detained in Switzerland pending the court verdict.

When the verdict was announced, Kaloyev refused to get up.

"I am accused of burying my children. Why would I stand up?" he said.

Peter Nielsen, a Skyguide air traffic controller, was stabbed to death on February 24, 2004 near his house in the Swiss town of Kloten. Kaloyev was arrested in a local hotel a day later.

Kaloyev lost his family in an air crash on July 2, 2002 when a Tu-154 plane owned by Bashkirian airlines collided with a DHL-owned Boeing over Germany's Lake Constance. Sixty-nine people, including 45 Bashkirian children, who were flying to Spain for a holiday, and two Boeing pilots, were killed.

German investigators said the accident was due largely to negligence on the part of Skyguide, and partially the fault of the two Russian pilots.

Kaloyev's defense team decided to appeal against the verdict, defense lawyer Markus Hug said.

Prosecutors described the verdict as too lenient, and said that they might consider an appeal, Prosecutor Ulrich Weder said after the trial.

The Russian Justice Ministry said it would seek Kaloyev's extradition to Russia to serve his sentence there, Saak Karapetyan, the director of the international law and cooperation department of the ministry, told the Ekho Moskvy radio station.

Since Russia and Switzerland have no extradition agreement, and Russia has only signed but not ratified the 1983 European Convention, the only option would be to sign a separate agreement on this particular case, Karapetyan said.

"The main thing is for Kaloyev to agree," he said.

Taimuraz Mamsurov, the president of the Russian North Caucasus republic of North Ossetia where Kaloyev was born, attended the trial as a private person.

"Skyguide can be happy and sleep calmly. Our Vitaly will be in prison, and Nielsen who bore the brunt of the company's sins is no longer with us."

Kaloyev's brother Yury said: "I had to attend the trial of my brother today, instead of a trial of those who killed 71 people."

He also showed photos of the bodies of children who died in the crash.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

However tragic the death of this man's family is, this is a ludicrously low sentence for such a crime. If Swizerland is anything like the UK, he will no doubt with 'good behaviour' be out in 4 years. What is most disturbing here is the acceptance that somehow this could be a reasonable response to the controller's death. It is bringing into Western Europe concepts of 'vendetta' and mafia-type values which should be challenged at every turn. This guy knowinly decided to kill an Air Traffic Controller for a professional error. Such an act is the worst sort of pre-meditated criminality and should have resulted in a life sentence. The Swiss have seriously failed their own citizens in this and opened the door to every type of revenge killing on a whim.

[Mercenary Pilot]

A tragic story, hard to believe that it all really happened. I wouldn’t be amazed if it’s turned into a docu-drama or something similar, I’m also surprised that it hasn’t been reported on TV (as far as I know).

My condolences to everyone touched by this terrible event.

[Harrier46]

NSF
I doubt the father concerned was too worried about whether a "professional error" or "deliberate act" killed his wife and two children. For him, he lost his family, three people. In circumstances which none of us is ever likely to experience or appreciate. So I for one would certainly not want to judge him. The "light sentence" is an acknowledgement of these circumstances.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Agreed, however the controller leaves behind a family also. If I remember correctly, he was assassinated in front of them.

Has/will anyone from Skyguide senior management face(d) any charges.....?

[5150]

I think it's known as Diminished Responsibility.

[Techman]

Just make sure your name is kept out of the papers if you ever where to be involved in anything like this. There might be someone with 'diminished responsibility' coming after you.

[LatviaCalling]

I believe a key question is whether the Swiss bore any responsibility during this incident. The Russian acted out of anger/grief for the loss of his family. That, in my opinion, is no excuse to off an ATC who has made a mistake, however critical.

The question is, I believe, whether the Swiss have acknowleded their terrible mistake whereby the two aircraft collided and what is going on in the courts to sue the hell out of anyone that was connected from dustbin sweeper on up. I'm sure the buzzards have been working on it from day one.

[FakePilot]

8 years for a premeditated murder is ridiculus. It's not as if the ATC PLANNED to kill those people.

And if this guy killed the head of the company providing the ATC, he would have gotten more?
I bet he would, because "everyone knows" that management had nothing to do with the stituation.

[flyboycoxy]

Does anyone know if he has a paroll period?


8 Years seems very light for Muder1, and the way in which he did it.

I watched the air crash investigation relating to this crash and apparently the ATC man was off'd in front of his wife and child.

He should get life no matter how harsh his his circumstances were

that is my 2 cents

[PLovett]

There has been a TV program about the collision as well as the official report. The Russian killed the wrong person.

Both make it quite clear that Swiss controller personally was not at fault but his company was. The shortcomings in the control centre that night were critical to the collision occurring.

In summary there was engineering work being conducted that night that removed most of the controllers telephone connections as well as the warning system of an impending collision. He was also distracted by having to work another aircraft that was on approach elsewhere and because of the telephone being disconnected he could not call the other controller who was in the rest room at the time.

The final hole in the Swiss cheese scenario (please excuse the pun) was that the controller did recognise the danger before the collision and called on the Russian aircraft to descend just after the TCAS in that aircraft had called for a climb. The DHL aircraft TCAS had called for a descent. The Russian crew obeyed the controller rather than the TCAS. The controller was not aware that the TCAS had activated.

The rest is, as they say, history.

[N380UA]

There are several issues being discussed here. One is the murder of the ATCO, one the trail and the verdict and one the circumstances that led to the accident.

In as far as the trail of Vitali Kalojew is concerned, it was a very fast process to the surprise of all, I think. After just 2 days, the court retired to deliberate on the sentence. Vitali Kalojew never denied that he did commit the murder, he did however say that he has no recollection of his action during the event. According to the shrinks this is indeed a very plausible statement. And yes, he did kill the ATCO in front of his family just outside their home.
The sentence of eight years seams light for murder 1 and as some have mentioned, with good conduct he will be paroled after a few years. Under the circumstances I think it really doesn’t matter. 8, 10, 12 or more years or even the death sentence, the live of Vitali Kalojew has been over at the moment of the accident. I believe that the court took these thought into consideration. Some people can handle the loose of a loved one better then others, Vitali Kalojew obviously wasn’t able to cope with it.

Now, the accident in itself is a different story. The trail there is still ongoing. It will be very difficult to blame a single person though every single person could have prevented the accident. The controller by separating the aircraft 30min. prior, the engineers by better informing the ATCO of what he is doing on a live system, the Russian pilot by following TCAS orders timely and precisely, Munich (Frankfurt?)center by intervening much earlier.

All in all this is freak accident. I know that midair collisions have happened before but ENRT in a virtually empty airspace?

[NigelOnDraft]

If this BBC report Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4379378.stm) is correct (unlikely I know!) he was not charged with Murder. So all those above, including the original report are technically incorrect speaking of "Premeditated Murder" "Murder1" or whatever:A Swiss court found Vitaly Kaloyev guilty of the premeditated killing....
Premeditated killing is a lesser charge than murder under Swiss law.
Prosecutors had called for a 12-year sentence for Kaloyev, while his defence lawyers said he should not receive more than three years for the crime So he got right in the middle of the 2... Difficult one, but the real problem is how/why the ATCO name and address became known...

[BOPralph]

As aviation professionals we recognise that the system failed the ATCo... he was left to do his job without the technical and human resourses he should have had. He was not at fault, but his error contributed to the accident.

What of Vitali K? He helped organise the flight to Barcelona and lost his wife and children as a result... his emotional life was destroyed with that aircraft. To try to understand what he felt is beyond me and, I think, most of us.

Was his plight recognisable? It is now! Where was the support that Vitali needed?

The death of the ATCo is his fault, but ....

[N380UA]

NigelOnDraft

You, the BBC report is correct. Premeditated killing is a lesser charge than murder under Swiss law. The difference, if I understand correctly, is that premeditated murder occurs in on a plan and in full consciousness. Premeditated killing is if you may have the intention to do so but the actual killing is resulting in an affect.

[Rainboe]

BOPralph, you must be kidding!
What of Vitali K? He helped organise the flight to Barcelona and lost his wife and children as a result... his emotional life was destroyed with that aircraft. To try to understand what he felt is beyond me and, I think, most of us.
So he decided in a premeditated act to destroy the 'emotional life' (as you put it) of the controllers wife and child by terminating the 'controller'? Is this how they do business in Russia? (I think so, I observed the loading of a western business man's coffin into my 737 at St Petersburg- rubbed out for 'business reasons').
Premeditated murder is murder plus a bit. The evilness comes from it being planned rather than a sudden mental outburst. If any sentence deserved life, this was it. I find it difficult to have any sympathy for him. He should be locked away for 20 years after parole. The message is 'you can do it, and it may not cost too much!'

[5150]

Like I said, this is known as Diminished Responsibility.

This is where a sentence is reduced from a Murder charge to Manslaughter or Murder 2 or whatever it is called in Swiss law.

It takes into account the state of mind of the defendant at the time the crime was committed.

Keyloyev's mental functions were impaired due to the loss of his family and therefore could not be held 'criminally' liable.

[eugi]

hi all,

according to the accident report by the german investigation bureau was it the russian pilot who ignored a TCAS Climb call. i learned that tcas orders overrule all atc orders.
maybe mr. kalojev hasn't read that. the sentence is too low.
our nice swiss court allows "mafia"-like revenge feelings to reduce the sentence.
and now he sits in a swiss prison. he should get kicked off out of our country.
cheers

[Ropey Pilot]

Studi:
Obviously, the crime was not planned

From what I remember the ATCo ('Peter X' at the time)was living under a witness protection type relocation.

Kalojew hired detectives, and tracked him down with great difficulty.

He claims this was purely to show him pictures of his dead children. By some fluke he obviously (and entirely accidentally/without premeditation) happened to be armed at the time!

I'm not so sure that there is anything obvious about this not being premeditated.

Yes, tragic for all involved. However the ATCo made one of an entire series of mistakes (and if you count thoses responsible for the phone system and the Russian pilot ignoring TCAS not the biggest mistake either) - Kalojew killed a man in cold blood in front of his family.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Its worth noting that the Russian crew were highly experienced, with a training captain and captain occupying the front seats. Although the pilots were trained to respond to a TCAS resolution, it must have been difficult to purposely disobey a radar advised ATC instruction.

"It always seems an easy decision when were sat down here on a warm sunny day"

[RatherBeFlying]

From what I remember the ATCo ('Peter X' at the time)was living under a witness protection type relocation.

Kalojew hired detectives, and tracked him down with great difficulty.Sounds to me like the detectives were accessories before the fact. Sharing Kalojew's cell for the next 8 years would be about right:mad:

[missive]

No, mercenary pilot. Experienced or not this 'accident' should have been no more than an air miss. It doesn't take much experience or nous to understand that TCAS is the last line of defence and you always follow it. The acts of this murderer and the Russian crew are symptomatic of the incompetence and violence of this third world state.

[Spuds McKenzie]

that TCAS is the last line of defence and you always follow it

See here: http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/RiskManagement/skyguided-3.html

and here: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010131-2

Now, someone tell me, why ICAO is apparently getting away with it...

:mad:

[Ropey Pilot]

Studi,

You are correct - I did not attend the tribunal either and my comments are also based on rumours (a proon speciality) and by what I have seen in the media.

The same is probably true of most people here and by necessity (or definition of PPRUNE) most topics discussed here are simply 'trial by media' a situation we all jump up and down about when it refers to an aviation incident where we know a few more of the facts than have been reported.

I would say that 'the law is an ass' is a known saying for a reason (not quite as harsh as that in this case). There are numerous examples such as the judge who determined that a young women who was raped had been 'asking for it' by wearing a short skirt! Examples such as that don't fill me with confidence that all neutral 'justice dispensers' are any more infallible than anyone else.

Those 'facts' (I accept they are unsubstantiated) I mentioned may have been taken into account, may have been disproved, may have been entirely speculative or fictional - I don't know.

All I can do is add my tuppenceworth and read everone elses (some better informed than others) and give my opinion. That way we can all comment on cases we don't have first hand knowledge of and hopefully learn from someone who does -I find that also works for things like dinner party conversation; if I only entered conversations about subjects I knew indise out and could back up with documented evidence I would be a lot quieter (and I wouldn't learn as much by being corrected/informed by those more learned on a sublject than myself)

But after all that - I personally still find it hard to believe that he tracked Peter X down internationally and approached him with a wepon which he then used to murder him in cold blood (and in front of his family) without any degree of premeditation.

[ATCO1962]

Sorry, not buying that diminshed responsibility, anguished grieving, I-didn't-know-what-I-was-doing stuff!

Community living, no matter what country you live in, relies on people making good choices that don't harm others regardless of their emotional state. Otherwise, let's get rid of all our laws and act on our animal impulses.

When someone like this Russian takes it upon himself to inflict the kind of damage he did to the controllers family, we get anarchy. If he gets out in a few years and has another traumatic episode that triggers another killing, do you want to be on the receiving end?

And what's this " group of people that have have far more insight into the law than we as normal people have?". If you mean that they can recite the law better, I concede, but if you mean that legislators around the world draft good laws and deliver just verdicts faultlessly, you've got to be kidding!

I know the awful feeling that comes from a terrible loss but this ATCO and his family did not deserve this. I hope the appeal court gives the Russian life and throws away the key.:*

[Mercenary Pilot]

ATC Transcript (http://aviation-safety.net/investigation/cvr/transcripts/atc_20020701.pdf)

[Alpha Leader]

The question asked in an earlier posting was what consequences have the Skyguide management faced as a result of this disaster?

To my knowledge, there have been no terminations, no resignations, and even the Swiss Transport Minister has refused to accept responsibility for the absolute sh1thouse Skyguide operated on that fatal night.

:yuk:

[Spuds McKenzie]

Alpha Leader,

Tell us somethimg about your ATC background, will ya?

[N380UA]

Apart from the fact that this is way of the topic, I'd rather fly through Swiss air space than through Indian. No offence intended. Other then that I'd like to double on Spuds question!

[Andy_S]

For anyone interested, National Geographic are repeating the 'Aircrash Investigations' documentary on this incident at 11pm tonight, UK time.

[Alpha Leader]

N380UA, Spuds McKenzie:

Skyguide were, on that particular evening, in violation of their very own operating rules, including - but not limited to - the fact that only one controller was in attendance.

Any more questions?

[Spuds McKenzie]

Elaborate on those rules, Skyguide was in violation of, Alpha Leader.

And tell us what would have happened if both crews had been following TCAS.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Identfying the factors that contributed to the Ueberlingen mid-air collision (http://www.humanfactors.uiuc.edu/Reports&PapersPDFs/humfac04/nuneslaur.pdf)

[His dudeness]

I think, this was coldblooded murder. Nothing else. I dont care about why and how.

If murder isn´t punished any more...

There is a lenghty article in the german news-mag "Der Spiegel", telling the story how this guy became obsessed with the question: who is guilty and who apologizes to me. Apparently in his culture one has to crawl 500 meters under constant excuses if he has done harm...

Sure there are mistakes done by swisscontrol, which didn´t want to apologize,sure this guy has rights too (and one can understand that he went mad), but this poor danish swiss atco had the right to live.

[niknak]

In the UK we have had several recent cases of corperate manslaughter been bought, particularly after railway accidents.
In most of them, no one individual could be indentified as being the person whose incompetence premeditated the accident or incident, although it's obvious, that, as in this case, corporate greed was the overiding factor.

Frankly, I am amazed that none of the relatives affected by any of these other incidents, have not taken the direct action which the Russian chap did.

I don't condone his actions, clearly he was severely traumatised and probably went a lot further than he intended to, but in the same situation, who are any of us to judge him?

[LostThePicture]

Credentials aside, Mr McKenzie, Alpha Leader makes an important point, which I as a fully paid-up member of the ATC fraternity totally agree with.

I don't know where you work, but I'll take a wild guess and say ScOACC. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Now, how would you feel if management told you that as well as controlling a bandboxed area sector at night (say, Humber/Montrose), you also have to provide approach services to aircraft landing at, say, Aberdeen airport? You are operating from two different consoles, with two different frequencies. The only aid to your job is one of those fancy office chairs with the reclining backrest and friction-free wheels. To make matters worse, those pesky engineers are fiddling with the phones, so none of them work properly.

No matter how quiet these sectors are, I don't think any of us working at a UK ATC unit would tolerate those conditions. And nor should we.

In my opinion, Skyguide have a majority shareholding in the blame for not just one, but two crimes. Firstly, the system at Zurich that night was so seriously degraded that the duty ATCO was unable to provide safe air traffic services to the aircraft under his control. The link in Mercenary Pilot's post illustrates this quite well. Secondly, someone in that company has released the ATCO's name to the media, which has ultimately resulted in his murder. Now I don't care whether the name was officially released, or unofficially "leaked" - the fact is that the man's name should never have been in the public domain.

This is an open forum and I don't think Alpha Leader should be disqualified from making valid comments just because his profile doesn't say "ATCO". Those who criticise should either bring something meaningful to the discussion, or wind their necks in.

LTP

[ATCO1962]

niknak

Every time the court system hands down a verdict, a judgement is made. Judgements are made by the zillion every day and will continue to be made at that rate till the cows come home.

Almost every law we have is designed to protect the community at large and is meant to ensure that emotional outbursts are at least tempered by an understanding that your actions will have consequences. Of course people often don't think about those consequences when they're in the heat of emotional turmoil but I will always be asking that offenders of any description who hurt/kill anyone for whatever reason be held to account. To not do so is to invite random violence by those who, for whatever reason, cannot hold their feelings in check. I don't want my children to live in a world where unrestrained emotions are in any way condoned.

I will judge the Russian and say that he was wrong...no qualifiers. If I should ever do the same thing, you should hold me to that same standard.

[Pierre Argh]

Tragic story, beginning with dozens dead, one killing and a prison sentance... but it seems to have brought out the amateur lawyers from across the world, who sadly seem to have nothing better to do than discuss Swiss Law (which presumably few actually understand?) Pointless!

[Spuds McKenzie]

LostThePicture,

Check your PMs.

[the_hawk]

@Pierre, like has been said on this and many other boards before, it is pointless to rant about people discussing matters they are not professionals in

of course it is your well deserved right to rant about it if you have nothing better to do ;)

[BAE146]

Vitaly Kaloyev should have his neck stretched - end of story !

[Alpha Leader]

Spuds McKenzie

If your German (or, for that matter, French) is insufficient to understand the documents that are in the public domain on this issue, I cannot help you.

BTW, my own experience with Swiss ATC is based on my years with the Swiss air force.

[Mercenary Pilot]

LostThePicture

Well put. Let’s hope this thread doesn’t descend into petty bickering.

Does anybody know which (if any) recommendations or changes have been implemented within Skyguide?

[ukatco_535]

There has been a rumour flying around for many a year, that when TCAS was mandated for European airspace, many companies fitted it, but did not train the crew either sufficiently or in some cases, at all... the mere carriage of the equipment is/was all that is required by the letter of ICAO rules. .... DISCUSS!!??

As for blame for the accident, like many things, it was many small errors that led up to the one tragic outcome. If any one of the small errors had not happened, chances are we would not be discussing this today.

However, despite not having suffered like Mr Kayolev has, it was still cold blooded murder. It happened well after the accident, surely this cannot be called a crime of passion or impulse?

If the Kayolev did, as suggested earlier in this thread, help arrange the trip, was his revenge an attempt to assuage his own feeling of guilt (which any human being would feel.... he must have been thinking "if only I had never arranged this trip etc". Amateur psychologists discuss!

[Spuds McKenzie]

Alpha Leader,

BTW, my own experience with Swiss ATC is based on my years with the Swiss air force.

From a post of yours, dated 3rd July 2002 at 11:24:

I am not too familiar with (Swiss) civilian ATC (only military ATC)

No further questions...

[moufflon]

I wouldn't recommend the National Geographic 'Air crash investigation' show on this topic, it's not an even coverage and skips much of the facts. The graphic reenactments can also be quite disturbing if you're closely involved with what happened.

The Crowded Skies program (either Channel 4 or BBC) is much more professionally done.

The full accident report is available on the BFU website, makes an interesting read, but most of this has already been discussed on the original thread.

Moufs.

[Alpha Leader]

Spuds McKenzie

Still more familiar - thanks to private contacts within Skyguide - than you will ever be, right?

As you say: no further questions
:ok:

[Spuds McKenzie]

You could be wrong... :E

[stag1]

quite frankly 8 years is a joke!!Is it ok for the wife of that atco to now go to russia and kill this guy's brother or mother or whoever he has left?

[Alpha Leader]

N380UA:

Quote:

............ I'd rather fly through Swiss air space than through Indian.......

Unquote


Really....??

http://www.nzz.ch/2005/10/30/il/articleD9VFI.html

[Proceed As Cleared]

In english:

Skyguide reporting more incidents

Crash of Ueberlingen leads to a new safety culture in air traffic in Europe

The numbers look frightening: In 2004 77 airproxes were reported in Switzerland.

An airprox means, that the minimum distance between two aircraft has dropped either below 9 kilometers horizontally, 300 meters vertically or 5.5 kilometers in approach.

In 1998 the number of dangerous airproxes was at 20 and has increased significantly since.
That the incidents with a high risk of collision have deacreased from 25 (in 2003) to 16 (in 2003), doesn't inspire confidence either. In Germany, only three airproxes of this category had been reported, in Great Britain it was only one.

Do passengers have to expect the increased likelihood of a crash over Switzerland?
No, says Erik Merckx, Head of Safety Enhancement Business at Eurocontrol in Brussels. "I'm reducing these numbers to the fact, that the reporting culture in Switzerland is exceptionally well developed."
This is being appreciated by Eurocontrol: "Authorities and those involved can learn from mistakes reported by pilots, ATC and airlines, and draw their conclusions." According to statistics from various countries, Merckx notices that since recently, more but less serious airproxes have been reported.

Since 2001, Skyguide is building up a safety management, for which 22 people are working.
In 2004, 1180 bigger and smaller incidents have been reported to them, from near miss to worn aircraft tyres. 90 percent of those reports are forwarded to the FOCA (Federal Office of Civil Aviation), which then enacts safety regulations for all involved.
Airproxes do not always happen because of ATC, but the reasons can be found with everyone in aviation.

Skyguide CEO Alain Rossier says, that it wasn't easy, to enforce the new philosophie: "In normal life, one gets punished for every mistake. We on the other hand want our controllers to report any irregularity. This culture of trust we had to build up."
In order to create this trust, so called safety improvement reports can be filed confidentially. Although this type of reporting is available, 95 percent of reports have been signed with the names of those involved. The crash over Ueberlingen on July 1st also resulted in a setback for safety management. "If such an accident happens, the public is looking for a culprit, this is part of human nature. This accident was a shock for all the staff and we will never forget it."

But the collision over Ueberlingen had positive implications as well. In order to prevent such accidents in the furure from happening, Eurocontrol initiated a strategic safety action plan in late 2002, which should improve the quality of ATC in 41 countries.
Interim results of this process were published in March 2005. Eurocontrol determines that regarding reporting, improvements are necessary. "Although it is indisputable, that the exchange of information about incidents would have big advantages, several countries and companies are concerned, that their performance regarding safety could be compared to their disadvantage", it says in the report.
That these numbers at this stage are not in favour of Switzerland, is being accepted by the FOCA, says spokesperson Daniel Goering. "We as the regulatory authority support an active reporting culture. Skyguide, in case of doubt, reports one occurence too many rather than too little. This is positive, because one can learn also from situations which finally didn't lead to a near miss."

Not only Eurocontrol is striving to get convincing and therefore comparable numbers. According to Jean Overney, head of the BFU (Office of air accident investigations), the collision over Ueberlingen "lead to a worldwide shock": But the data are still variable.
Under the leadership of the BFU, a workshop took place in Belp (Canton of Berne) in mid October, where investigation authorities from Germany, France and Great Britain agreed to harmonise their incident reporting. Switzerland is now working on a proposal regarding standardization, which will be discussed next year amongst the parties involved.

Draw your own conclusion.

Mine is:

Alpha Leader, you're a sad case. :*

[Alpha Leader]

ZRH:

As you would no doubt know, such profanities (if posted in English) would not be tolerated by any moderator.

My point to N380UA was simply to point out that air space in Switzerland is no safer than elsewhere.

Anyway: merci vielmal, da gseht me wider was für äs Bildigsniveau i de Schwiiz herrscht :D

[N380UA]

Alpha Leader

This being the Professional Pilots Rumor Network I understand that not all of us are/were pilots. But we are professionals of this industry. You on the other hand seem to have a serious weed up your ass when it comes to skyguide or Swiss airspace. So let me give you a moment of pause that you may contemplate and ponder on the shortcomings of this organization.

One, if not the most important aspect of PPrune is to exchange information and knowledge gained from within and from the line in order to improve aviation safety. I'll be listing to your justified and well based comments which you can, of course back up with a wealth of evidence.

You have posted a link to a newspaper article by the NZZ. A paper which is renowned for reporting facts, well researched and current issues. I'll quote from the English translation:

Do passengers have to expect the increased likelihood of a crash over Switzerland?
No, says Erik Merckx, Head of Safety Enhancement Business at Eurocontrol in Brussels. "I'm reducing these numbers to the fact, that the reporting culture in Switzerland is exceptionally well developed."
This is being appreciated by Eurocontrol: "Authorities and those involved can learn from mistakes reported by pilots, ATC and airlines, and draw their conclusions." According to statistics from various countries, Merckx notices that since recently, more but less serious airproxes have been reported.

That these numbers at this stage are not in favour of Switzerland, is being accepted by the FOCA, says spokesperson Daniel Goering. "We as the regulatory authority support an active reporting culture. Skyguide, in case of doubt, reports one occurence too many rather than too little. This is positive, because one can learn also from situations which finally didn't lead to a near miss."

This goes in line with a statement I once heard while I was in Brussels on a aviation safety seminar: Just because a day goes by without a safety report doesn’t mean that safety was not compromised.

Let me close up, in English, Alpha leader you’re an idiot. And yes, also in English, the educational levels leave quite obviously much to be desired.

… Ich frög mi ja scho was de alpha tuet liide?

[Alpha Leader]

N380UA:

The letter written on 7th May 2004 by UVEK/BFU to the German Air Accident Investigation Bureau admits that two (out of three) systemic faults had contributed to the mid-air collision over Ueberlingen.

These two systemic faults are clearly identifed as being in Skyguide's court.

Thus - as opposed to the innocence of Peter Nielsen - who was simply doing his job - there is no innocence on the part of Skyguide, its management and its political masters.

:bored:

[N380UA]

Alpha

Very well! Let me see that letter.

admits that two (out of three) systemic faults had contributed to the mid-air collision over Ueberlingen

Had contributed . Which I read not as caused . In the mean while, I further await of your systemic analysis of skyguide.

[thedude]

A very sad event with no real winner's.

However, the swiss court's result adopts the following logic;-

let's imagine; your daughter, 23, is driving home, her mobile phone rings and whilst reaching for it she mounts the curb killing a 40 year old woman.
A blatent death by negligence on the part of your daughter. Yes I know that she didn't go out with the intention of killing the woman but she is licenced to drive the car and if you hold a driving licence you have a responsibility of due care.

Now if that woman is my wife, your daughter in my eyes is responsible and I want revenge.

What will I get if I kill her, 4/5 years after parole! GIVEN MY GRIEF, FAIR DON'T YOU THINK!

and where would it stop?

This example is only made to make a point of logic.

My condolences to both parties in this case.

[Alpha Leader]

N380UA:

Your earlier name calling was totally unfounded, and your request for substantiation of my remarks regarding the mess at Skyguide on that fatal night further reinforces the impression that you are more inclined to shoot from the hip than to entertain an intellectual discourse. Given the fact that 60% of all causes involved in the Ueberlingen mid-air are laid at Skyguide's doorstep, there is no need to deride other countries' ATC.

Anyway: here is the link to the letter from UVEK/BAZL:



http://www.bfu.admin.ch/de/pdf/ueberlingen/Stellungnahme.pdf


You will also note that the original report by the German BFU listed two "immediate" causes (one being the much belated realisation by Zurich ATC that there was insufficient vertical separation), and three "systemic" causes (of which two were attributed to Skyguide). Skyguide only requested a change in the wording of the two "systemic" causes.

If you care to read the full report, you will note that Skyguide on that night had, in effect, a SMOP - but this was by themselves certified for daytime operations only. They had also not actively instructed their controllers that due to maintenance word (fall back mode) their STAC was inoperative - something P.N. had not been aware of.

[Proceed As Cleared]

Alpha Leader,

Where is N380UA "deriding other countries' ATC"?
If someone is deriding somebody it is you.

Seit der Katastrophe von Überlingen hast Du dich auf Skyguide eingeschossen, andere Faktoren, welche zum Zusammenstoss geführt haben, sind für Dich offensichtlich irrelevant.
Es ist unbestritten, dass nicht mehr genügend Separation vorhanden gewesen wäre, aber der Grund wieso es schlussendlich knallte, war, dass TCAS als "last resort tool" nicht entsprechend angewandt wurde.

Kein TCAS, kein Zusammenstoss (die Boeing wäre weiterhin auf FL360 weitergeflogen, die Tupolev knapp untendurch geflogen, nachdem sie den Befehl zum absinken bekam).

Nun, TCAS war vorhanden, wären beide Crews dem TCAS gefolgt (und wir wissen, dass die Tupolev Crew dies nicht getan hat) , dann hätte der Zusammenstoss nicht stattgefunden!

Und ich bin nicht der einzige, der diese Meinung vertritt!

ATC Watcher hat am 10 Juli 2002 um 11:41 geschrieben:

From what I know so far the Zurich collision fell exactly into the induced risk in the CAS logic. My reasoning is : Should TCAS had not been present in that case would the collision had been prevented.
You have to answer yes, so here you are. TCAS caused this collision. Not pleasant to hear for some, but this is the ( legal ) reality.
Did the pilots follow ICAO guidelines (looking for each other , but in doing so delaying the follow of the RAs well beyond the 5 seconds required ) or did one ( or possibly both ) pilots manoeuvrered opposite to the RA, against the recommendations of the User manuals …
The lawyers are going to have a good day.

[Stumpie]

Reading this thread one sees a wide spectrum of differing opinion. On the one side we have the "hang em high" brigade and on the other, Sky Guide are bloody useless and are totally to blame! Well, is there really a bad guy here?

I cannot condone what the Russian did! Nobody can or should. I can imagine his mental state though. I personally cannot envisage my family being wiped out by the vagaries of life and should such an event occur I would probably want to avenge them by whatever means at my disposal, especially if I felt that the authorities concerned ie this guy from Sky Guide ( the boss not the controller) was perhaps being insensitive. However, I would hope that I would be able to see that this is life, nasty as it is, in a more realistic manner and leave the blame culture to the authorities concerned. And therein lies the problem!

HAVE Sky Guide learnt anything from this tragedy or for that matter the operating company of the Russian aircraft? Sky Guide and the Russian pilots are culpable here. Sky Guide for operating to a lower safety standard than their own guidlines set out and the Russian crew for not following standard operating proceedures when dealing with an RA. Okay, I have been retired a few years now, but my recollection was that you always followed the instructions of the RA, REGARDLESS. Has this changed? What is more, SOPs stated that one had to inform ATC that one had received a TCAS warning and was climbing/descending asap. In this case the Russains were remiss and the controller was completely in the dark, going on instinct, which unfortunately was wrong in this case. But one has to ask. What were the sops that the Russians were operating under? Was their company not culpable? Lets face it! This was a tragic result to a situation which under the circumstances was probably unavoidable. Individuals and groups made huge mistakes in this instance. BUT, by pointing fingers and being polemic is not going to bring any solution, or more importantly, closure here. If you feel someone is culable then put pressure where it is due. For goodness sake stop trying to make pixie points by having a go at fellow contributers and lets try and learn from this tragic loss of life of children, families and a controller, who I am sure was only trying to do his best under difficult circumstances.

[Alpha Leader]

Proceed as Cleared:

I am beginning to think that your reference to other contributors being "a sad case" is due to your inability to analyse a chain of logic.

Never mind



:ok:

[Few Cloudy]

And let's not forget that although the controller allowed a bad situation to develop unnoticed, it was still a rescuable one. If the TCAS had been followed by both aircraft, the situation would have been saved - precisely why TCAS was invented and installed.

This fact has apparently been callously ignored in the Russian press (it was the wrong reaction of the Russian crew which caused their aircraft to deviate in the same sense as the freighter). That was the end of the chain, which began with one controller too little on duty and various ATC system maintenance programmes in progress.

With proper TCAS training and use, this sorry story would have been "just another airmiss" but perhaps one from which we could have learned a lot.

I also feel sorry for the German controller who witnessed the whole accident but couldn't contact his Swiss colleague due to maintenance on the telephone connection.

As for the killing, well it was premeditated murder and revenge, of which we see too much in the world these days. Judging by some of the reactions on this site, it is no wonder that wars happen.

[Proceed As Cleared]

Alpha Leader,

Deine Arroganz spottet jeder Beschreibung. Ich möchte gar nicht erst darüber spekulieren, was Dein Problem sein könnte (werde mal meine Kontakte bei Skyguide fragen... :E).

And of course you possess this ability to analyse a chain of logic based on your vast experience in ATC, don't you?

:rolleyes:

Fact is, you never worked for Skyguide as a civil ATCO, and yet you claim to carry the ultimate truth regarding the events of July 1st 2002. You might be a "cut and paste" expert, but that's about it.

BTW, notice Few Cloudy's post. I suppose, you accuse him as well of being unable to analyse a chain of logic, since his remarks regarding TCAS concur with mine...

:hmm:

[N380UA]

Alpha

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. As they say: If ya cant take the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

Now as I said, lets exchange knowledge and experience to make our industry better and safer. If you are not a member of this industry but have an interest and care to know a little bit what we do than ask questions and educate yourself but don’t come on this board and tell folks what is going on at skyguide, Swiss airspace or anything in relation to those issues.

You said:

BTW, my own experience with Swiss ATC is based on my years with the Swiss air force.

As what?

You also said on 3rd July 2002 at 11:24:

I am not too familiar with (Swiss) civilian ATC (only military ATC)

Further:

To my knowledge, there have been no terminations, no resignations, and even the Swiss Transport Minister has refused to accept responsibility for the absolute sh1thouse Skyguide operated on that fatal night.

What for? To evade responsibility before any investigation has concluded let alone begun? (on the by by I like your expression: the absolute sh1thouse)

Skyguide were, on that particular evening, in violation of their very own operating rules, including - but not limited to - the fact that only one controller was in attendance.

So there you answer your own Q. skyguide does have proper SOPs in effect. The fact that they were not adhered to or only partially implemented is and was an issue of concern at that particular time. That would be a human factor failure under these particular circumstances and not a systemic failure.

If your German (or, for that matter, French) is insufficient to understand the documents that are in the public domain on this issue, I cannot help you.

Still more familiar - thanks to private contacts within Skyguide - than you will ever be, right?

Anyway: merci vielmal, da gseht me wider was für äs Bildigsniveau i de Schwiiz herrscht

So who antagonizing who here?

You have send a link to a BFU (NTSB) document which I haven't seen before. Thank you.
Let me roughly translate some of the highlights of that report:

- The impending reduction in separation was noticed late by the ATCO.
- The crew of the TU154M followed the advice of the ATCO and initiated a descent.
- The TU154M continued the descent even though TCAS was calling for a climb.
- Thus the crew flew the opposite of a TCAS RA maneuver.
- Upon reaching FL350 the TU154M had a sink rate of 1900 ft/min
- The TU154M has left the ATCOS assigned flight level.
- The ANSP does not guarantee for a permanent staffing of all open WP during the night shift.
- The ANSP allows the second ATCO to rest during the times of low/none traffic during the night sift.

Are you relating the last 2 points as systemic skyguide failures?
These are not uncommon SOPs to my knowledge.

Yes, it leaves room for improvements and these improvements have been implemented on all fronts.

So there you have it Alpha! I said it before and I says it again! If one would want to reproduce the event of Ueberlingen willfully one would not be able to.

This was a freak accident and it just had to happen.

Now, where do you come in? What is your knowledge? What is your wisdom? What can you do to prevent such similar freaky event from reoccurring elsewhere under such impossible conditions?

[Spuds McKenzie]

These are not uncommon SOPs to my knowledge.

This is correct, N380UA.

There are (western) ATCs with no Controller Assistant, no Radar Planner, only one ATCO per sector all day and night.

One ATCO on the sector at night wasn't and isn't a specific Skyguide-only procedure.

[Alpha Leader]

N380UA:

Glad you've read that letter.

You will, however, have noted that Skyguide's SMOP rules at the time did not permit two adjacent sectors to be covered by one controller, yet on that night that precisely was the case....... (apart from the fact that the SMOP rules had never been approved for night operations at Skyguide).

There is also clear reference to the fact that the Duty Supervisor must - according to SMOP rules - regularly check for actual traffic load on SMOP-controlled sectors. There was, as we know, no Duty Supervisor assigned on that night.


Proceed as Cleared

Permit me to yawn....... and add that if this collision had taken place over a third world country with a Swiss aircraft involved and a similar mess had been identified at that country's ATC, there would have been a massive outcry (with tabloid Blick leading the pack, of course).

Checking out now
:hmm:

[Proceed As Cleared]

Alpha Leader,

did not permit two adjacent sectors to be covered by one controller
The controller worked with two adjacent radar screens which were located at one sector.

Checking out now
Looks like we've cornered the b*****d :E

[N380UA]

Alpha

As it has been pointed out by PAC and SMK, SMOP was not an issue or even a factor. In the case of adjacent screens covering an active sector and under low traffic SMOP is applicable. As it is further common practice (globally) to unman inactive sectors during the night shift the BFU has confirmed that not all WP were staffed, which as I said is common just about with any ANSP.

On this issue however I'd like to understand your knowledge on skyguides SMOP and its night ops implementation.

For as long as you keep trying to lay the blame on skyguide you will have to prove your accusation. "Nulla poena sine culpa"

Thus far you've come a bit short of proof.