Private pilots and gliding experience

[hcjs]

I have been wondering having seen some recent posts how much benefit there is to the private pilot of gliding experience.

Glider pilots do tend to be more competent with regard to glide approaches, PFLs etc, but beyond this how much does the private pilot actually benefit?

There are a few private pilots who may think that because they have gliding experience, there skill set is substantialy higher than other powered pilots. I feel this may lure some into a false sense of security.

I await the onslaught!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I was a glider pilot in the late 70s before doing my PPL in '78. It helped me solo early 'cause I already understood use of the flying controls, stalling, spinning etc. Other than that, can't say it had much effect.

SSD

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've not a great deal of gliding experience myself (single figures of hours), but I've never yet seen a current or ex-glider pilot who wasn't a very good handling pilot in light (or not so light) aeroplanes.

One or two with a slightly worrying disregard for procedures, but that may have been just them anyhow and nothing to do with the glider flying.

G

[pulse1]

I don't know if it still applies but, when I started my PPL with a Bronze C Gliding Certificate, I only had to do half the hours.

Like Shaggy, I was able to solo in a Tiger Moth in about 3 hours. After a lapse of twenty years, it took me a lot longer to solo the second time round. So, even allowing for age, I guess the gliding helped a lot.

[Lowtimer]

SSD, I suspect you sell yourself short. In my experience people who first learn to fly in the gliding environment have much better lookout drummed into them and also seem to pick up a lot of general ground-based airmanship and learning, from activities such as extensive ground-handling of delicate structures, rigging and de-rigging, ballasting for C of G, and so on. And hangar-packing/unpacking - that's something that gliding clubs tend to be really good at. Not claiming any moral superiority, it's just the experience you get and the things that a good gliding CFI will instil in people.

[shortstripper]

I was a glider pilot first and personally think it was very beneficial. In fact I'd go as far as to say that I think I'd have crashed once had it not been for the gliding! Of course I guess to get into such a situation in the first place may mean that I was stupid, but that's not the point here :p

How much it helps is hard to gauge as those who have will almost always say it was worth it, and those who haven't will almost always doubt it :\ I think it helps make you a more intuitive pilot and certainly one who is less likely to fear engine failure ... although I'd rather not test that one too often!

Why not go and do a weeks gliding and see if you find any benefits yourself. It would be interesting to see it from a pilot going the other way for a change :)

SS

[Paris Dakar]

SS,

"It would be interesting to see it from a pilot going the other way for a change"

I'd held my PPL (A) for approx 4 years before I chanced upon a flight in a glider whilst on holiday in Cornwall.

The instructor explained that I could 'fly it as much as I liked' or I could sit back, enjoy the experience, and the views. Needless to say I was keen to show off my own skills as quickly as possible.

During the launch I handed control back to the instructor no less that 4 times as I was I had the glider swinging like a huge pendulum behind the Pawnee. 'Gentle input on the rudder dear boy' were the calming words from the instructor, yet despite my best attempts, I admit wholeheatedly, I was totally useless.

So I reverted to 'sitting back and enjoying' the view! I followed the instructor through on the landing, and I take my hat off to those who make it look so simple.

And just to add, I don't think I have ever met such a welcoming and fanatical group of flyers as the folk I met that day in Perranporth.

[shortstripper]

It's a nice site isn't it? :D

I did my two Bronze legs there in a K6CR in about 1986/7 using ridge lift. It was superb as it was late one autumn evening with the sun setting. Everything was bathed in gold and as it started to get dark one of the instructors started flashing his car headlights to let me know I'd better come down!

SS

[Paris Dakar]

SS,

It is a beautiful site, situated in a wonderful part of the world.

As well as the hospitality of the hosts at the airfield, the other thing I remember vividly was (and I know this is going to sound totally stupid - but so what) Cornwall from the air looks exactly like you are looking at it on a map. I didn't realise the land is so narrow in places, you certainly don't get that impression when you are driving down the lanes along with 100s of visitors doing 25mph. :D

[hcjs]

My gliding experience enable me to complete my PPL training on minimum hours (including a 10hr JAA credit).

At CPL level, however I found the differences between the two types of flying widen. I am trying to identify where I can best use my gliding experience in relation to the type of flying required for IR ratings etc.

Now that I have had instrument training for IR, I feel ashamed that I ventured into cloud in a glider with no professional (qualified IR instructor) instruction, and in a glider without a full set of instruments and questionable batteries!

[shortstripper]

Now that I have had instrument training for IR, I feel ashamed that I ventured into cloud in a glider with no professional (qualified IR instructor) instruction, and in a glider without a full set of instruments and questionable batteries!

Why ashamed? Did the experience kill you? Clearly not! Don't confuse powered aircraft wth gliders when thinking about how "dangerous" cloud flying, spins, highly banked tight turns at low level ect are. Different types of aircraft have different characteristics and ways of handleing. What is OK for one may be well outside the "safe" envelope of another. The pilotage of different types may require different skills but they have one common requirement ... a pilot who knows his/her limitations and the limitations of the aircraft!


I am trying to identify where I can best use my gliding experience in relation to the type of flying required for IR ratings etc. Well if you've done a reasonable amount of soaring and where keen to learn, your MET should be pretty spot on, so surely that has helped?

SS

[OpenCirrus619]

I think it depends on what you want to fly / what you have flown.

I did my PPL (mostly) in a PA28 and had no problems. Once I had it a friend suggested I might like to fly his Auster - when I wanted to go around a corner I would bank it in the appropriate direction and the b*****d thing would just carry on where it was going (but it didn't half feel uncomfortable).

After a couple of (frustrating) hours my mate suggested we drop into a gliding club - he seemed to think that flying a glider would help me understand what the "foot rests" were for.

My first flight was AWESOME. The visibility - sitting in front of the wing in a "bubble". As we went downwind I can remember thinking that "we should turn base now....really NOW....OK we're not going to get back to the airfield", followed by finals "we're never going to get there.....OK, we might.....Oh ****, we're going to overshoot the end of the airfield (1000yards away)", then the airbrakes came out - WOW!!!!

Fast forward......past Silver 'C' and around 100 hours in an Open Cirrus

I still find it completely awesome that I can get a winch launch to around 1000', cruise around for 4-6 hours and then land back where I started - WITH NO ENGINE.

Also I have recently got checked out on a Tiger Moth - during which comments like "you can always spot a glider pilot 'cos they know what the rudder is for" made me feel good and meant the upper airwork / PFL / spinning / ... was sorted on under 2 hours. (We'll skip over how long it took me to sort out the landings - not been able to see ahead really threw my height judgement).

I would suggest you do a trial lesson (book it direct with the club - its far cheaper) and then consider doing an intensive day/week course. Take a look at: http://www.gliding.co.uk/findaclub/ukmap.htm and, once you've considered the others pop into http://www.shenington-gliding.co.uk and they'll sort you out.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b18/andykmoore/100_0095.jpg

[hcjs]

SS

No the experience has left me unharmed. However, when I first did do cloud flying I only had two flights with an experienced instructor in the front. The rest was self taught by trial and error, and on one occasion I can remember the a/c NiCad battery failing leaving me without a Turn and Slip. It was a different type of flying but in retrospect, I would recommend more training for such conditions.

As for Met I can read the sky more quickly than my colleagues. Where I am falling down is on the multitasking aspects of IR which are used to the same degree when flying gliders.

When it comes to PFLs and EFATOs my technique differs from the textbook drill by using my gliding methods for field landings. This has left a few instructors uneasy, however I have never failed to make a safe approach.

[David Roberts]

Seems like most people appreciate the value of gliding before resorting to having an engine. I am an advocate - for those who know me you'd expect that in my role.

There is no doubt that (most) glider pilots know what the foot rests are for and are generally good at handling controls delicately and precisely. Their awareness of Met also improves their skills.

Many of our top UK competition glider pilots happen to be airline or military pilots but they all started in gliding. One is current world Standard Class Gliding Champion (2nd time round) and a BA 777 captain.

Talking of airline pilots, the incident a while back with a aircraft flying to Europe from Canada and which developed a fuel leak (abrasion on a fuel line I think) which the crew failed to ascertain (can't remember the airline or aircraft) landed safely at a military base in the Azores after a 160 NM dead engines glide. The captain was a gider pilot and it was that partly that experience that got them into a spot landing.

[kookabat]

I went for my first flight in a glider not long before getting the PPL. Got me hooked... I fly purely for the fun of it and the low cost (I got two flights for less than $90 AUS) of gliding is great!! Admittedly this was with a friend so it wasn't the full cost of getting seriously involved (membership etc) but for someone who has the time to justify the cost of joining GFA it'd be great - it's all flying. Once I have weekends free I'm hoping to get involved more...
And yes, those 'foot rest' things have a use in gliders!!!

[Whopity]

Having completed PPL courses for many glider pilots it becomes very obvious that gliding instills a level of airmanship that is often way beyond that of the average powered pilot. That stands them in a very good position to complete the PPL course in reduced hours. There are of course skills that are quite different, and a glider pilot has to learn new skills that are not common to glider flying. The glide ratio of an aeroplane is much lower than that of a sailplane so the judgement is quite diifferent, but the glider pilot will have already learned more about landing in fields than the powered pilot ever will.

[Mike Cross]

I too went the Bronze C route.

hcjs
Major difference between gliders and SEP is that pilots of the former receive spin training and most gliders have dive-limiting air brakes. If all goes pear shaped you have the option of pulling out the brakes and waiting for the ground to appear, taking appropriate action when it does. If the thermals are taking you into cloud you usually also have plenty of height in hand.

Things that I think gliding gives you which you don't get during SEP training:-
Greater self-reliance. Some PPL's seem to find difficulty with non-radio circuits.
Better emergency training. When was the last time you had a PFL pulled halfway round the circuit and landed on the grass or on a runway different to the one in use or flew an abbreviated circuit, cutting corners to get in?
Better approach training. PPL's used to the visual cues of a marked runway can have problems with an unmarked field and the physical effort of returning a glider to the launch point after landing long soon teaches you to nail the approach speed and the touchdown point.
Visual separation. Adjusting your landing point to cope with close traffic becomes normal and instinctive when a go-around is not an option.
Better situational awareness on the ground. Visual checks of the approach become instinctive, whether you are preparing to take off or just moving about the airfield.
Balanced and efficient flying. Wasting energy in a glider sends you groundward, in a SEP you simply use more fuel.

Mike

[MikeGodsell]

Hmmm..

I have been a bit critical of gliders, and the possibility of bumping into one on route in my ATL. Seems like a good time to turn up at a gliding club with a more humble attitude, and ask to be shown how to use the footrests properly! (ATLs have a vee tail and automaticaly yaw into turns)
My experience of gliding clubs is similar to horse riding. If you turn up and pay to ride a horse..thats what you get. But if you help with the mucking out and putting on the tack you become part of a friendly community. To my shame I landed once at Aston Down thinking it was Kemble! It cost me a lot of beers in the gliding club bar that evening, but what a wonderful friendly group of enthusiastic people I met there.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

MG

[David Roberts]

So, MG, you are one of the 'it looks like Kemble so it must be Kemble' brigade ! We at Aston Down witness many who have made that mistake, and even when we walk the pilot to the signal square after landing, and which clearly says 'AD', they still can't believe it is not Kemble !

Seriously though, glad you got a good welcome in the bar where my fellow club members relieved you of all the loose change. Come again and try gliding. You'll wonder why you have missed it all these years.

The problem about flying across gliding sites (which you nearly did presumably) is that if they are winch launching you won't see the cable up to 3000' AGL and it won't half change the performance of an aircraft if you try and fly through it. This is a subject the Airprox Board and CAA will be re-iterating this winter in their publicity.

DGR / Cotswold GC / Aston Down

[Kolibear]

I've just read Paris Dakar's thread and was nodding ruefully in agreement all the way through it!

I was totally useless

I can agree with that :O My only gliding experience was with the Border's Gliding Club at Milfield and although I thoroughly enjoyed it , I wasn't actually much good at it. Maybe I'd improve after a few more hours.

But I'd definitely recommend that all PPLs should go gliding - its a great form of flying.

[Whirlybird]

An acquaintance of mine recently had a serious accident while doing a go-around in a powered aircraft at a short strip. He had no idea what happened, and was amazed to be alive (just), but having read an account of the accident it sounds like he stalled or spun in or similar. I mentioned it to a friend, saying how surprised I was that it had happened, as he had thousands of hours, even though most of them were on gliders. Her comment? "You don't do go-arounds in gliders".

Food for thought.....

[ProfChrisReed]

I'm surprised he tried a go round.

A huge part of the glider pilot training is fixing circuits and approaches which have gone wrong. On my pre-solo flight the insructor suddenly announced, as I began the diagonal leg (we cut the corner off square circuits) that two of the three runways had suddenly become blocked. This left me exactly overhead the point where I would have to touch down. This led to some fairly abupt low-level manouvring at about 50-60 degree bank angles, the final consequence of which put me on approach to a runway at right angles to my original choice and with a 90 degree crosswind. The fact that this all worked out fine must have been the reason that I soloed 15 mins later.

If we all revert to primary training when flying goes pear-shaped, I'd have expected him to adjust his circuit and approach so as not to go round at all.

BTW, it's useful for pilots landing at a gliding site to realise that the circuit pattern is only a rough guideline, and that about the only people flying "normal" circuits are early solo pilots. Everyone else is improvising constantly to fit in with the conditions (6 kts of sink is interesting) and the traffic.

Many times I've been number one in the circuit and landed number three, as I improvised to allow other gliders to make safe landings and give me time to work out which parts of the runway were left for me to use.