Britannia crew stranded in Mexico!

[Kelas]

Just heard that some Britannia crew are stranded in Mexico awaiting the hurricane. They have been evacuated to a school. Question is, why have the company not made any adequate provisions for their safety?

[jettesen]

i don't think that the company has much choice in this situation as they will be following the evacuarion procedures of that particular country. Huricane evacuations are strictly controlled in theses areas, and when someone says evacuate, then they go to the nearest evacuation center - which in this case is a school

[Miss World]

They shouldnt have been put in that situation in the first place!!

No doubt its going to happen to many more crew in Florida at the weekend!

[Dogs_ears_up]

Outrageous - How dare Thomsonfly crew be exposed to the same natural disasters as other, mere Mexicans. Special arrangements should have been made to ensure 5* accommodation was pre-booked. It is absolutely clear that Thomsonfly place no regard on the lives of their crew, and in this case may well have made a positive effort to kill them all.

It is particularly distressing to note that every other airline in the world has removed their crew from the path of the storm using many of the numerous airline seats that are always available on flights in the path of a hurricane.

Arrangements have now been made to divert the storm (henceforth to be known as Hurricane "Maurice") away from Florida

[Captain Capstan]

If this is the Man based crew who left yesterday they took an empty 767 out to evacuate as many of our passengers as possible prior to the hurricane striking. If they had been evacuated as well that would have meant passengers being left behind.

[Eddy]

Sadly, this is the business we're in. Sh1t happens and we have to live with it - it's a prerequisite of our role.

I have been through an earthquake in Jamaica, friends of mine have spent seven days in Orlando staring down Hurricane Charlie of last year. Other crew I know were in Islamabad when the disasterous quake hit last week.

If airlines evacuated crews each time a "natural disaster" hit, not only would airlines be forever shipping crew around the world, they'd also be leaving lots of passengers stranded due to disrupted operations (i.e. plane lands from London and there's nobody there to take it back).

This way, when the worst is over, a plane can be sent right out and these guys and girls will be there to take the flight straight back with holidaymakers onboard who also survived.

[6chimes]

Well said Eddy.

Is it not the case that we cabin crew always complain about the ignorance of pax when they dont listen / understand when we ask them to follow safety procedures that are there to save their lives should the unthinkable happen.

So its ok for us to be all important life savers when we want to be but not take into account that somebody else might be doing the same thing on a massive scale and actually be trying to help a lot of people stuck in the aftermath of a hurricane.

In a situation like this there is no place for a prima-dona.

6

[Kelas]

Miss World has hit the nail on the head.....one of those Britannia crew is a friend and she said that Britannia were flying passengers into Mexico even though they had been warned. I can understand if the storm had been a total surprise and was out of the blue but in this case everyone had at least half a week notice and yet Britannia were still sending passengers and crew into the danger zone. Who's the monkey who was responsible for that one?!! Is it ethical for a comapny to send clients and staff into such a situation in the full knowledge that danger is around the corner?

[Dogs_ears_up]

Thank you Kelas for that: It's amazing how stupid airlines can be. There they all are working out complicated operational plans to manage a natural disaster when all they really had to do was... speak to you!!!

There are many reasons why crew, and customers (and the locals of course) are where they are - I don't propose to cover those reasons here because I'm not sure that you are willing or able to cope with them.

Before passing any further criticism of these matters, please could you help us to understand what qualifications and understanding you have of operational decision making for airlines. On an earlier post here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2026988#post2026988) you appear to claim that you are presently employed serving Pizza? Does this role provide you with some useful insight into operational requirements?

[sukigirl]

The reality is that you cant let a hurricane stop the world from ticking over. People still have family or business to get back to, there have been so many hurricanes this year and most have been relatively low catagory. Im not talking about hurricane katrina which caused devastating damage and loss but there was warning of it being a high catagory.
Airlines do know what they are doing and know when the risks are getting to high and they would never jeapordise peoples lives haphazardly because of the implications it could cause. but on the other hand they still have to get people from A to B. And if that means crew get stuck downroute a couple of extra days then so be it but to cancel the flight would cause to much disruption unneccesarily (though in some cases of course it is right to cancel the flight) Dont forget crew are put up in a nice safe hotel that was built to withstand the force of hurricanes, Unfortunately it is more likely the locals who cant afford such accomodation whose lives are really put at risk.
I dont mean to sound harsh and i am crew myself who was stuck in MCO eraly this year in a hurricane and a friend of mine was stuck for a week in BOM when the monsson struck recently and 80 people died. i do agree with many people on this post that we do not need to be prima-dona's. this is the world we are all living in.

[jettesen]

i totally agree. its not the airlines fault. The world must continue to run no matter what. its only a hurricane, it passes. If it was that serious, they would not fly out there and more importantly risk loosing an aircraft too

[Kelas]

Dogs_ears_up

So according to you it's ok for an airline to send crew and passengers to mexico with the full knowdlege that a hurricane is on the way! You must be the monkey at Britannia I'm talking about!

[Carnage Matey!]

There are two BA crews sitting in the basement of a hotel in Miami at the moment. Apparently its rather wet there. The world goes on you know.

[flapsforty]

Kelas do keep a civil tongue in your mouth please.

(hint: calling another CC foum user a monkey is not civil. ;) )

[Harrier46]

Perhaps Kelas should stick to pizza, as he has little grasp of life in the aviation world.

[newarksmells]

I live on the East Coast in the U.S and the general mantra here is when a hurricane is going to hit...and it's usually forecast 4 or 5 days in advance, airlines cancel flights and get their planes out of the affected area. This often includes U.S. Air Force bases too !

The last thing they want is planes sitting on the tarmac generating no revenue, crews stranded who are totally non-productive, and planes getting damaged due to the 125 mph winds.

So yes, it does seem strange why a company would choose to send a plane and crew to an area where an hurricane is forecast unless they had passengers to pick up.

Newarksmells

[Miss World]

yes, it does seem strange why a company would choose to send a plane and crew to an area where an hurricane is forecast
Not to mention how many plane loads of passengers but its ok, i'm sure they'll be fine wont they Dogs_Ears_Up , just give em a plastic bag a pillow and a blanket and lets take up loads of space in shelters that could be used by locals.... After all, we wouldnt want to make your job any harder by working out further complicated operational plans...

I was in a hotel for one of the hurricanes last year (cant remember which hurricane) anyway the hotel was turning elderly locals away because it was full.... full of tourists!!

I hardly think delaying a few flights is stopping the world from ticking over and at least should keep your brain ticking over with such a qualified job that we wouldnt possibly understand!!

Miss W

[Dogs_ears_up]

Nobody sane pretends this is an ideal situation: The question is as to whether it is totally avoidable? The answer is of course, not.

The issue that I have with Kelas is that he/she has nominated a specific airline (my employer) to the exclusion of all others, made very serious accusations against them in a public forum, and done so with a level of understanding of the industry, and the operational side of things that could charitably be described as minimal, and less charitably as "I've got a friend who is Cabin Crew and she says...". With all due respect, I feel bound to place greater credence on the decisions made by our ops department than those made by a worker in a Pizza restaurant. This does not reflect a lack of respect for those who work in such places, but it does show a contempt for those who make serious allegations in public, from the safety of anonymity and with virtually zero experience or understanding of the operational issues involved.

For the record - I too have previously experienced a hurricane, this time on a company slip. I also know some of the crew who have been trapped in CUN and have spoken to some of those (including our Ops department) who have been in touch with the crew on this occasion. Factors that have had a negative influence on this particular event include the extended duration of the hurricane in the CUN area and the lack of UK sub-charter availability, since other airlines are similarly affected by the hurricane and the European IT summer season is not yet quite finished.

As you have mentioned earlier in this thread Miss World, customers will also be affected in Florida (and of course Cuba). In your view, should all passengers and crew have been evacuated in advance in these locations as well? If so, should this policy have been applied at Thomsonfly alone, or should customers of Thomas Cook, First Choice, British Airways, Virgin et al have been similarly treated?

And finally, one other question. Each crew there brought an aircraft in: That aircraft then evacuated 300+ people (and crew) from the path of the hurricane. If the crew had not brought the aircraft in, would that demonstrate a lesser degree of concern by the airline than doing so?

I appreciate that for both you and Kelas there is a very real chance that these questions are unanswerable: There will be a collision between reality, bolstered with hard facts and your (according to your PPRuNe posting history) 3-4 years flying experience and Kelas' experience of adding extra cheese with no anchovy!

If you want to make serious public accusations against an airline, try and support your arguments with facts (preferably), experience or at least knowledge. If you can provide none of these then you should expect to deal with the consequences.

[Backtrack]

I was in a hotel for one of the hurricanes last year (cant remember which hurricane) anyway the hotel was turning elderly locals away because it was full.... full of tourists!!
Well, who'd of thought it - an hotel full of tourists!
What's the world coming to?
Whatever next?
Where will it end?
Restaurants full of diners?
Bars full of drinkers?
Sports stadia full of fans?
And worst of all...hospitals full of sick people!

Dogs_ears_up
Hear, hear! Well put.

[Miss World]

Dogs_ears_up

I now see why you have got on your high horse about this, all because Kelas mentioned the airline you work for.. But how has he/she made serious accusations against them in a public forum?? Do you know what Pprune is for?? Maybe you should take it up with someone that all airline/company names are removed...

Im not going to answer your first question because I think you know that my opinion of this isnt aimed at Thomsonfly alone. I dont think ANY airline should be taking passengers into a country to use and take up provisions that could be used by locals... That is my point!

One other thing, just because I dont work within the operational side of the aviation industry and not to mention only having '3-4 years flying experience' does that mean I can't have an opinion on this matter...?

Miss W

[Kelas]

Dogs_ears_up

So come on...why don't you explain to us why the company you are working for sent a plane full of passenger, it's crew and a valuable aircraft into a location which the whole world (exept maybe your employers) knew that in a few days was going to be hit by a forecasted force 5 hurricane?.....explain the logic behind that one.

It's definitely not to evacuate passengers because if it was the aircraft outbound would have been empty of passengers and I'm thinkin that it would have been done after the danger passed instead of putting fresh crew in the path of a force 5 hurricane!

It's not an accusation because I know for a fact that your employer has crew stuck out in Mexico which they placed there along with passengers in the full knowledge that Wilma was going to pay them a visit!

I mentioned your employer because in this case it's them who have been reckless with their crew and passengers lives not to mention with their valuable aircraft.

Maybe you should serve Pizzas instead!

flapsforty

I apologise for calling him a monkey...I actually ment to call him a donk.....oh never mind!

[Hand Solo]

Do you want an explanation as to why BA have two crews stuck out in Miami due to the hurricane? I bet Virgin have a crew there too. The world goes on despite you being scared of the weather. People want to travel and they've paid for their tickets so we take them. None of the BA flights went out empty, there was no shortage of people wanting to go to MIA.

BTW the way I very much doubt that the aircraft has been sitting on the ground in CUN for the duration of Wilma, it would have been in and out again in just a few hours, so you're suggestion that BY have been reckless with an aircraft is utterly without foundation.

[Kelas]

Hand Solo


So if the aircraft has been in and out as you claim for it to have been...then why leave the cabin crew there to face wilma? Is it a case of Brittania thinking that the aircraft is more valuable then the well being of their crew & passengers?

PS any other airline which knowingly sent crew, passenger & aircraft into a forecasted danger zone is just as reckless!!!

[Hand Solo]

Have you considered that by positioning the cabin crew home on the aircraft they arrived on cause a 2 day delay in reinstating services back to the UK when Wilma clears, delaying another 600 odd passengers who want to get home further? I doubt it.

PS any other airline which knowingly sent crew, passenger & aircraft into a forecasted danger zone is just as reckless

Either that or the other airlines and crews used their many years of experience of flying into areas of bad weather, political and social unrest to judge what was acceptable and what wasn't and made their call based on the best real time and forecast weather information available to them. Of course if you think you know better than all of them I'd love to hear what your qualifications are.

[captcat]

I now see why you have got on your high horse about this, all because Kelas mentioned the airline you work for.. But how has he/she made serious accusations against them in a public forum?? Do you know what Pprune is for?? Maybe you should take it up with someone that all airline/company names are removed...
Miss World,
frankly I think it is very interesting that we can have here someone like Dogs_ears_up , with insider's knowledge. How useful is to make allegations we cannot substantiate on a public forum? It appears they are not the only airline with crew stranded in Mexico. In my career (not in that airline) it has happened to me to be stranded somewhere 2 times because of a hurricane. Anyboby who has stuck around airline biz enough will know.

My opinion is that it would be more constructive to ask "why" it may happen that a crew is stranded because of a hurricane. We might be lucky and have someone from an OPS department with some firsthand knowledge to reply ;)

[sinala1]

I bet Virgin have a crew there too.
Not sure if VS have crew stuck in MIA, but I do know that yesterdays MIA flight was cancelled (it was written on the board at Cabin Crew checkin) - although I am not going to speculate as to why

[Hand Solo]

It was probably cancelled as a result of the huge winds going through MIA at its scheduled arrival time. At a guess I'd say that if Mondays flight didn't operate then Sundays crew are still there!

[sinala1]

Haha yeah Hands_Solo funny that! :O You should know not to speak logic to a very jetlagged flight attendant though (ie me)

My point was that some airlines are cancelling flights into the affected area, but I did not want to speculate as to whether or not that was hurricane-related

[Dogs_ears_up]

Well folks.. we tried. I don't think continuing this argument will achieve anything, and it is apparent that nothing that I say here can make Kelas & Miss World look quite as silly as they do themselves every time they post further.

That's it from me on this thread. :rolleyes:

[Backtrack]

Kelas
You started this thread with a question as to why Brits hadn't made adequate safety provisions (in your view) for their crew. You state that you have factual evidence based on information from an actual crewmember who also happens to be a friend. Aided & abetted by Miss World (who seems to think that Messrs Hilton, Marriott et al have constructed their luxury hotels to be nothing more than local tropical storm shelters) to accuse the airline of RECKLESSNESS ; i.e. that the either knowingly, or through wilful neglect, put an aircraft of theirs & its occupants into a known area of danger that threatened their very survival.

Like all the other carriers faced with problems with Wilma, Britannia will have gone through a strategy, based on as much of the best information as they can muster and come up with a plan.

Are they perfect? No.

Do they always get it right? I doubt it.

Could they have been wrong here? Quite possibly.

But, was their decision as a result of reckless behaviour? Well, they haven't been around for the last 40 plus years by being reckless.

(BTW, like another poster I also heard that they sent an empty aircraft out last week. But I also heard that, due to changing circumstances, it only got as far as POP.)

If you do have evidence - by that I mean hard, factual, proof-positive evidence & not hearsay tittle tattle from a so-called friend - then, let's have it. I'm sure the class action lawyers would be delighted to use anything you have in any forthcoming litigation.

With the benefit of hindsight, we can all make 'wise arse' comments about what should have been done & although I have no knowledge as to actually how wise your own arse is, I reckon it has more wisdom in it than that dormant organ otherwise know as your brain.

[Kelas]

Backtrack

You don't happen to work for Britannia too do you?

[Miss World]

Kelas
Don't you think you've mentioned 'Britannia' too much? People start to take offence you know!

[Kelas]

Dogs_ears_up

Seeing as you are so well informed in the aviation industry no doubt you will have heard the rumour of some of your employers cabin crew kicking up a stink in the domican republic and the involvement of unions in regards the recklessness of being put in the path of danger!....it's amazing what I learn serving pizzas!!! ;)

Miss World

:E

[TFlyguy]

Who is this airline called Britannia - I remember one called that in the good old days ..........

[30secondReview]

Me too.................................

The good old days

(just off to POP to rescue CUN pax, what joy...........................)

[RaverFlaver]

People seem to be harping on about how dare airlines send people to a place of danger.......excuse me.....but aren't the passengers the ones who decide if they want to go or not. The airline does not hold a gun to their head forcing them to board the plane.

I have been operating crew to Bali days after the bombing. Sure I didn't want to be there and would have rather been elsewhere, but you know what people were still going over to enjoy family holidays with young kids......now the airline is not to blame for that. They are just providing the service.

So whose the idoit? The airline or the pax?

However I do understand the concern of sending crew to a place that is not desirable. Though I'm sure most airlines that everyone works for has ways of dealing with that if you feel your life could be at risk, simply speak to someone about it.

RaverFlaver :)

[Stirling]

RaverFlaver,

Thank you for your post. Kinda stole my thunder a little though as, to my knowledge, no passenger has ever been forced to go anywhere they dont want to, and I'm sure that a majority are well aware of potential situations, be they weather or any other hazard, that they will be flying towards.

I'll leave myself totally and utterly exposed to the barrage of abuse I'll no doubt receive here, but I am one of those humble Ops boys who is very much involved in deciding what/who goes where and when.

First of all, believe it or not, of paramount importance to us is the safety of crews, aircraft and passengers. Those on here who are being paranoid, stop it now as I find your whinging a touch annoying and certainly not called for. If any Captain, First Officer or Cabin crew has a concern, no matter how small, we will endeavour to address, reassure and assist them in any way possible. They, after all and just as importantly, will be required to do the same for our passengers. Do you think flight deck will just launch merrily on our say so, completely unaware of what they are flying towards? Of course not.

Second of all, weather systems are only predictable to a degree, in terms of strength and direction and we are occasionally required to make decisions on predictions only, not guarantees and, again, in conjunction with the crew. This system was always going to cause a certain degree of disruption, and, believe it or not, to instigate a series of mass cancellations in order to protect our aircraft and crews was not the way to go in this instance.

Thirdly, all Ops and Commercial departments have refined the ways in which they react to these scenarios over many, many times. Like it or not, they are not just thrown together with scant regard for our staff and equipment. If Thompson saw fit to do what they did, then the decision would not have been taken lightly. Dont be so flippant as to say otherwise.

Sometimes Ops make the wrong call, primarily because we dont have the luxury of time and work to tight schedules, as do crews. Sadly it's all to easy to sit back and complain about situations and environments that we know nothing about.

My rant is now over. Thank you.

[sukigirl]

Thankyou Stirling, i have to say as cabin crew i am with you on this one. Our weather is becoming more unpredictable therefore making it impossible to always make the right judjement. The real person to blame here is mother nature and i dont think anyone has her email address to forward our complaints to.
I have read this post with interest but am also getting increasingly annoyed at the nastiness that gos on between users in this forum, and not just on this post. Its not neccassary for all these insults flying around, we all have different opinions and should be able to vent them without all the abuse. I dont understand why the mods let it go on. This is the most unfreindly discussion forum i have visited.

[britanniaboy]

While i agree to an extent what has been said by stirlling, I can say for fact that a close friend of mine who rasieed an entirely valid (and union backed, might I add) was totally ignored and ridiculed by the commander (excusable as he is an individual) and then, worst of all, by senior management in the company.

In the short, she and several others refused to operate the flight as they felt their concerns were not being addressed and that their lives were being placed under considerable risk - it may sound melodramatic, but I can assure you the situation deemed it (detials of the situation may implicate the company and persons involved).

Said person was then brought in for an investigation and issued a verbal warning which is currently being fought. Additionally, several reccomendations were made to the company to avoid a repeat of the situation, none of which have been looked at or implimented.

For those who say that there are VAA and BA crews stranded in Miami, Florida has much higher building codes, is an English speaking country (i.e. english-speaking crews will find thing easier), is not on a spit of land three feet wide. Mexico is still classed by the UN as a developing nation, and as such does not have the immediate evacuation and SaR facilities available to the USA.