Descend with xxxx a min, when does it cancel?

[PGA]

Just a quick question: Last week I got cleard from Flight Level 290 to FL 240, with a minimum rate of 2000 fpm, at FL 260 we checked in with a new frequency. I was just wondering, when does the mininum of 2000 fpm restriction cancel, when checking in with a new frequency or when passing the FL 240 or something...who can help?

Thanks in advance

[NeoDude]

I would say it stands until you reach FL240. Not sure if you would need to inform the new sector of the restriction though.

[ILS 119.5]

Minimum descent rate is to get you through a level where there is conflicting traffic. It is only cancelled if the controller says so. Bear in mind transfer of frequency does not mean transfer of control. Also the two sectors involved may have co-ordinated the rate of descent and the accepting controller will still expect you to continue with the previous instuctions. Having said all that you could ask the new sector if the descent rate still applies. A good idea, if you get the chance would be to visit the area centre. The good old days of pilot/controller understanding seems now to be leaving our professional safety concious industry.

[millerman]

I agree with Neodude, but you should also tell the next sector of the restriction. However you shouldn't have been told to change to the new frequency until you are clear of the traffic that you were given the restriction for, so if you do change your rate or are given a different rate by the new sector nothing should go wrong!!!
We use this everyday at Maastricht, we have to descend our inbounds to FL260 but if there is an overflight at FL270 we ask the lower unit for a lower level because you can't do 2000 fpm until you level off (we know you will lower the rate the closer you come to the cleared level) and we (the pilots included) could end up in the SH1T ! Also by getting a lower level we can transfer you to the next sector before you level off and hopefully the next sector can give you continuous descent.
Hope this helps,
Millerman

[Nookie2nite]

I agree mostly, however, the restriction might be given to assist a seperation in an adjoining sector ie. the transfer of comms might happen before the sep occurs as it could only happen in the next sector. Pre planning...as ya all know....

Basically comply with the instruction until its cancelled, or you are unable to and request a cancellation of the clearance.

Obviously if you reach your assigned level the restriction automatically cancels for your further decent.

Happy landings!
:ok:

[PGA]

But isn`t there a definate answer to it? I would think it would be written down somewhere, but I can`t seem to be able to find the answer. Since on several occoasions I encountered having a high rate miles away from touchdown, which is undesirable, I`d rather cancel the restriction as soon as possible.....

[ILS 119.5]

No there is not a definitive answer. If you cannot do it don't accept it, and then spend another 30 or 40 track miles. I first came across this (similar) scenario coming out of LFPG but in the climb. Our climb rate was increased so that we could separate from an overflying a/c in the tma. Our cleared level was 1k above the overflying, we heard no more until we reduced speed to level off and then were advised of an airmiss. We should have been cleared to at least 2k above the overflying to allow for the reduction in climb rate. If any climb or descent instruction is issued with climb/descent rates then another proviso should be an "expedite through" level/altitude which should be the standard separation level/altitude. Another case of a great need for pilot/controller interaction.

[Green on, Go!]

Probably of little use to you guys in Europe, however, here is the relevant extract from the Australian version of MATS. (No idea how closely this aligns with the ICAO 4444):

4.3.1.11 Except for international aircraft, a rate of climb or descent shall be described in each level clearance when a specified rate is required to ensure the vertical separation is maintained.

4.3.1.12 The pilot of an international aircraft shall comply with a rate of change of level in respect of each level assignment without further specification of the rate until cruising level is reached, or, when on descent.

As there is a delineation between domestic and international aircraft, I'm guessing that the procedure for the internationals is more closely aligned to ICAO.

Happy to be re-edumacated.:O

[Tall-Lion]

ILS, due to the odd/even level system, it was probably not possible to clear you 2000 feet above the mentioned traffic, since there might have been traffic there as well...

On the other had, the controller could have informed you about the other traffic more precisely, so you would at least see the reason for the ROC...

But - gaining experience - I never use rates of climb to get separation anymore... I'd rather turn one ( or both ) 5 degrees and get lateral separation.

[DtyCln]

Before you hit the ground!