The blame game

[cloudyapple]

Went to Edinburgh for a long weekend. Arrived on Sat still with the old tower. Flew back today and I suppose we were worked from the new tower. (It looked stunning!)

Ok that's unrelated. Flight was due to depart 1615 but boarding didnt start till 1610. There were few pax so got pushed back roughly on time. (You guess which flight I was on.) Taxied out and in front of us were a BA ERJ, BE TP, BA TP, a private jet and a prop. And then I saw a Baby went around. So we queued and 1 in 1 out the queue disappeared in reasonable time. Until the Baby came back in. We were first in the queue by that time. We were held and the arrival gap was something like 3minutes roughly 6/7 miles I guess. As that was a go around I think it was given priority.

So the captain announced and I quote word for word "Ladies and Gentlemen we apologise for this delay. In case you are wondering why we are queueing for this long, air traffic control seems particularly slow today. We are now first in the queue and only have to wait for one more to land. We shall then be able to take off."

An Easy landed and we were off.

It just seems so unfair ATC gets the blame all the time despite it was obvious the Baby was causing all the fuss. To the average passenger they probably wouldnt know what was actually going on and would simply take whatever the captain had said. Adding to the list of bad press (ATC absolutely deserves but never gets any good press) this is very damaging to ATC's reputation.

Aside, 10 minutes later at RFL we hit turbulence as we were served drinks (oops that ALWAYS happens at meal times). But within 15s we were cleared to climb and the buffeting stopped. This goes to prove how efficient ATC is! Well done EGPH/Scottish!

Edit: Typo

[DFC]

While the Capt was not nice about it, it is standard policy.

Any delay between departure and arrival is 99.99% of the time an ATC delay.

The pilots know exactly what is going on in that case but there is no delay code for "someone taking more than 1 go at landing".

Perhaps we should call it a "Traffic Delay" as opposed to an "Air Traffic Delay" but it is still Air Traffic.

To take it to the extreme, we have still been on stand but did something that sent an electronic departure message to ops which gave us an "on time departure" the extra time between this supposed departure time and the actual take-off time must be and is recorded as ATC delay! :)

Hear that a recent train delay announcement went like - "we appologise for this train arriving 5 minutes late. The delay was due to passengers boarding and leaving the train"!


Thats the transport industry for you. :)

Regards,

DFC

[aluminium persuader]

A few years ago I was flying pax on EZY to CDG, 0830 dep or thereabouts. Sure enough, announcement comes over the tannoy, "Delay due to ATC". I explained to the girl on the desk about flow control, and what a star - the next announcement was "EZY xxx to Paris CDG delayed to to FRENCH ATC" !

Alors, mes copains Francaises - c'n'etait pas ma faute, qu'elle n'a pas comprendee exactement! Desole!
;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Don't worry - ATC ALWAYS gets the blame. My wife and I were flying back to Heathrow 18 months ago. We approached BNN around 5.30am and the gent up front gaily announced that we would be landing in 10 mins.. "No way", I told my wife, "we'll be holding till nearly 6am due to noise restrictions". So what does the Bright Thing up front tell us: "ATC seems to have got its knickers in a twist and given us 15 minutes unexpected holding." It was HIM who got both legs in one knicker not knowing the night jet restrictions... But, after a lifetime in the business one just gets used to it.....

[vintage ATCO]

Yep, you need sloping shoulders in this job, it's all part of life. ;)

Many years ago, one of our lot was wondering through the terminal one day and saw a hand written sign saying that there were delays 'due to air traffic control'. Hmmm, we knew they had a few unserviceabilities . . . . A price was extracted in liquid form. :D

[cessna l plate]

Think about it. A flight is delayed, and to appease the SLF in the back, blame has to be apportioned!

The despatcher could be blamed, but the pax might get to speak to them at some stage and have a go. The same applies to the crew and so-on down the line!

Who is the one person in all of this that Joe Public has definately no chance whatsoever of seeing and therefore having a go at??

ATC.

The chances of a pax running into one are remote in the extreme, and therefore are a faceless person who can be blamed?

I am more than happy to state very clearly that ATC do a wonderful job, and are the butt of many delay complaints, but you have to tell the pax something or else they sue!!

Just my thoughts on the subject, that's all

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I am more than happy to state very clearly that ATC do a wonderful job, and are the butt of many delay complaints, but you have to tell the pax something or else they sue!!>>

But according to your profile you're only a clockwork mouse pilot... However, you're suggesting that pilots are perfectly happy to lie and lay blame on a professional organisation for what is frequently the fault of their companies? I think that's utterly despicable. It's no good singing the praises of ATC on one hand, and then slagging them off with the other....

[Gonzo]

There are the blatant lies, of course, and then there are the occaisons where blaming ATC is the easiest option

Some examples....

Early in the morning (0630-0715), all the first wave of Midland domestic outbounds depart from a row of five stands (102-110) in T1. Usually there is a Paris, and perhaps another European departure in the mix from the same cul-de-sac. They're all scheduled to depart within twenty minutes of each other. Now, fogetting that there's also South African and Cyprus usually waiting to get in, and some BA short hauls waiting to get out (and towers in and out); even considering just the BMA outbound traffic it is impossible for all the flights to push back on time. From our point of view we can do no more than we do already. Is it Midland's fault for putting them all in the same cul-de-sac? The a/c all call ready on GMP, and a controller tells them to 'stand by, five minutes delay', so it gets recorded as an ATC delay..all for the sake of the stands being next to the Midland lounges.

Same time of the morning, all the inbounds to the V cul-de-sac have to shut down outside and be towed in due to T4 noise regs. The only option open to us is to delay any outbound from the V (and BA always put at least one outbound in there, despite our protestations) until we've got all the inbounds parked...there just isn't the space on the airfield to hold them all up somewhere to get one out. BA won't put the outbounds on other stands, because they want to use those for the important inbounds with lots of connecting pax. Fair enough, but don't blame us when the BA first Paris flight gets held on stand for ten minutes.

[cloudyapple]

I wonder what NATS has to say when BAA starts asking NATS to commit to delay targets with penalty attached. Most of the delays seem to be of the airlines' own making - go arounds, bad gate allocations, bad scheduling while others are to do with the airports' layout, govt regulations. NATS can't be blamed for any of these surely?

What about the new european delay compensation legislations? If the airline slips its sholder and blames ATC can passengers sue ATC?

[chiglet]

XAirlines...Due to ATC delays etc..... Captain "Overslept" :ok:
Same a/l [during the ATC Assistant strike, live on BBC News] XAwy 13 is delayed due to ATC strike action.....
No, it's not, it's broke... :ok:
watp,iktch

[cessna l plate]

Heathrow Director.
"clockwork mouse pilot". Hmm, very interesting, a bit like saying you spend all day watching a tv screen!!! Be it a C150 or a B747 we all have a skill base and are all in the same bit of sky. And that is where I will stand by what I said about the great job ATCOs do, because without ATC we wouldn't be in the same bit of sky, we would be in a mass of molten metal on the ground!!!!!

I go back to what I said, if the pilot is blamed, or crew, or handling agent and so-on then there is a human being (in a yellow coat no doubt) that they can shout at. Some SLF do shout as well. I am not saying that it is right, but from the ground and airline staff point of view it is easier. ATCOs are never seen by Joe Public. Even walking around a terminal building, would you know one if you bumped into him or her??

Furthermore there is an air of secrecy about what Air Traffic Control do, and the rules and regs that they have to run with daily, same as the flight crew. The difference being, as previously mentioned, French ATC have a habit, or certainly used to, of striking at the drop of a hat, esepcially in the summer months, so if tell a plane load of bucket and spade brigade that a delay is due to ATC, they will believe you, they can't do much about it as the control of the problem has passed to a faceless being in the tower.

Again, I'm not saying it's right, but you only need to look at some of the mentally challenged individuals that appear on programmes such as Airline to see some of the silly arguments that ground staff have to put up with.

[Carbide Finger]

Cloudyapple,

There are fines written into NATS' licence about delays. It is currently worked out on the average amount of delay per aircraft. If we go over a certain amount of seconds, we get a fine.

NATS gets 'blamed' for any delays due to capacity, staff shortages, system outages. A tech aircraft doesn't go on our slate but the airline may blame us!

BAA have nothing to do with this. CAA are our regulators. When new charging periods are going to come into effect the CAA will ask for proposals and feedback. I think all the feedback has now come in for CP2 starting Jan and Apr 06. Can't remember any of the penalty figures (not really that high on my reading list).

CF

[cloudyapple]

Yes there are service targets for NERL which is a monopoly and regulated. But NSL bids for tower contracts which I think currently has no delivery targets? ie BAA (and the other airport operators) pays the same whether the tower shifts 60 or 80/hour thru heathrow. I think this may change the next time the contracts with BAA are up for renewal.

[Warped Factor]

Given that we usually beat the declared capacity at EGLL, will that mean if we hit the contracted number at minute 50 in the hour we can then take 10 minutes off before starting on the next hour?

Sounds like a plan to me :rolleyes:

WF.

[G-CPTN]

So are there still PEOPLE in ATC?
I thought it was all computerised nowadays . . . .