Irritable ATC

[antonybradford]

Now before i start, I must stress that this is only based on my limited experiance from ATC, and at Liverpool John Lenon, so naturally dont assume that everywhere is the same.

After flying for over a year, and just being on the verge of completing my PPL, I have finally got the hang of RT communications (VHF radio), and implementing this with flying and navigation. So here is my nag....WHY oh WHY do pilots feel the need to greet the controllers and sign off on the same note. Let me give you a scenario:

Im sent off on my first general handling flight in the local area, just to the South west of EGGP control zone (sunday afternoon sometime in August)

Pilot 1:" Liverpool App Gooooood afternoon, this is Golf Lima mike sierra charlie , currently 15Nm to the South of Tarvin for a Non...........etc"

Mean while i'm patiently waiting for a gap to pass my details across, but whilst Pilot one is just ending his 1st transmission..

Pilot 2: "Liverpool App hello and a good afternoon........

Some 5 minutes have passed before i can even get chance to get a simple message across to recieve clearence to re join the zone.

Has anyone else experiance flappy pilots like this? I know im only a newbie to aviation, correct me if im wrong, but aviation is suppose to be professional, why say more than is necessary!

Antony Bradford

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hi Anthony. Having spent 95% of my working life as a professional air traffic controller I would doubt very much the accuracy of your statements! OK, a percentage of pilots and controllers exchange "niceties" but to suggest that is the reason for you being unable to make your calls is nonsense. I doubt that Liverpool is particularly busy so the R/T is probably more relaxed than elsewhere. However, having worked Heathrow ATC for 31 years and always wished crews "gooday sir" I don't think you have any grounds to complain.

And where does the "Irritable ATC" come in? You never explained that..

Good luck with the flying.... wish I'd gotten a PPL but it's far, far too late now.

[redsnail]

The Irish and Russian controllers wish you good luck as they hand you over to radar or clear you for take off...

Just what do they know?? :ooh:

[A I]

Hi Bren,

You're never too old!!

A I :ok:

[haughtney1]

I particularly love the "inshallah" when your flying in the Middle East......"cleared direct Jeddah..INSAHALLAH (god willing)"

What do they know....:bored:

[antonybradford]

I thought that I would get a reply from someone with far more experiance than me lol.

The irritable ATC is mearly a play on words i suppose, just grabs people attention, though I hope this hasn't offended any ATC controllers (which might I add have a huge responcibility to deal with - many thanks to you guys! )

I'm sure my experiance was a one off occasion. What I was really trying to get accross is modern day ATC. Within my unv course, often conversation drifts onto this topic, and how some pilots see the need to be very casual and relaxed abouthow they come accross on the radio, sometimes it seems like an epic!


I guess this is just a bad thing that us young generation have developed - Impatience! lol


What do you guys think? Would you prefere to hear a more friendly ATC approach, or a brief cold - but very precise transmition? I would love to know what people with more experiance than me have to say,

Antony

[mad_jock]

HD the oldest person I taught to fly from fresh was 75 and the oldest to retrain was 82.

The 82 year old hadn't flown since the second world war. An ex single pilot SOE bomber pilot who used to fly into Italy with as he put it a bit of wet sea weed for nav aids to resupply the locals in the hills. And he is quite happy on his NPPL

And the 75 year old always wanted to be a pilot but had to wait until his wife died to get to do it. Again has a NPPL took about 55 hours to get it.

Go for it and let us know how you get on.

What antony i think is getting wound up by is quite common with new PPl's. Its the cross over period between PPL instruction and doing it for real. I am in no doudt that he will have the perfect RT planed out in his head and just as he is about to hit the tit after a suitable airmanship pause. Some one else jumps in. Unfortuntly we have all been there. It's just experence. And more than likely it was irritable ATC the poor controller shoutin at the screen "i don't care shut up so i can get a sqwauk on you." The more experenced pilots know when the call from the previous aircraft has finished and hit the button as it finishes or just before.

Don't go down the route of air rage though it never helps the situation and only spoils your pleasure of flying and makes you more likely to make mistakes in the ATZ.


CAP413 intial call has changed somewhat in the last 2 years and the old CAPHAD which is one of the methods taught has become rather long winded for the current state of play for intial contact.
Its not the PPL's fault as the RT practical test is all set up with the ideal world that the CAA wants to happen. But in real life never happens.

Best thing for you to do is go visit the tower and have a chat with the controllers and find out what they would suggest you do. Also what they want as an intial call. Once they can put a face to a voice its uncanny how things will become a whole lot simplier. Then you can annoy other pilots by the controller saying "G-xxx sqwauk 7000 qsy to onroute speak to you later Tony"

Mj

[antonybradford]

This is true, I mean it is difficult because we are bombared with too much official documentation that depicts how certain actions should be carried out, RT is no different.

I agree that what is stated and what actually happens is different, though I have to say, what does amuse me, is:

"G-MS, contact approach on 119 day cee mal 5" lol

I've only ever heard one controller say that. Even my RT examer informed us that this was in place for old radio purposes whereby transmition was alot poorer quality.

Antony

[Ronaldsway Radar]

Hi there,

I've been flying PA28's for over 3 years now.

In quiet periods, pilot's sometimes become a lot more relaxed on the R/T, as there is less pressure to rush the transmissions.

Also, your instructor would probably recommend you relax your ATC aswell, as it helps to get used to it. If you rush it and be snappy with your transmissions you end up making more mistakes. Take your time with R/T and learn to 'use the gap' efficiently. Ie. after a while you get to perfectly time your transmissions and know exactly what to miss out and what to include.

And of course... patience is a virtue!

Would recommend getting to know your controllers, helps to feel more confident when talking to them over R/T. (also means you find yourself calling for rejoin and a chat about the footy match at the weekend :})!!

Hehe. Enjoy your flying mate, it's a brilliant experience.

RR

[coolbeans]

Hey antonybradford shouldnt that be


"G-MS, contact approach on wun-wun Niner day cee mal fife"

Just incase

:D

[antonybradford]

By that I take it you fly from liverpool and have come across the controller that says that?


RT is a wounderful thing though - get it right and you feel more confortable, get it wrong and sometimes its hard to forget, and consequently it affects your flight in a negative manor.

[mad_jock]

Don't worry about cocking up your RT.

Fly Nav Speak

Commercial pilots drop clangers everyday. Stepping on read backs and the like. And for most when you take them away from there comfy IFR script they will be just as tongue warped as a 50 hour PPL flying VFR.


Enjoy your flying and after you have a PPL why not offer to take a controller up from the tower. You will have to let them do the RT just for amusment factor of getting the conversation round the wrong way. And them getting fustrated with there collegues.

MJ

[alpha16]

Anthony, I'm not sure I get your point? ATC uses standard phraseology and although it may take up alot of R/T time, there are certain items that we have to pass to pilots, in a certain way and that we then have to ensure that you read back to us. This can be a pain in the a*se if it's busy (especially when we have to repeat ourselves!!) but it has to be done and despite how busy it gets, we try to keep it relaxed and friendly, especially for students like yourself... well, most of the time anyway! ;)

Despite what other people may perceive, EGGP is very busy at various times of the day..and getting busier. I expect the day that you are talking about (a Sunday afternoon in August) would most definately have been VFR-tastic! With that, the IFRs, and the numerous transit requests... I don't doubt that the Approach frequency would've been a bit crowded. You just have to remain outside controlled airspace and be a bit quicker on the button!

As for the "contact approach, 119 day-see-mal 85" as far as i know, we all say that... it's standard phraseology. I think the accent of the lady in question just makes it sound distinctive!

Maybe a visit to the tower is in order. Speak to your instructor, we always welcome visits from the students over on the GA... and by the sounds of it, I think you could benefit from the experience.

One tip tho.... don't forget the choccie biscuits!!! :ok:

[coolbeans]

Nah I dont fly around eggp, standard rt just gets me........excited

:ok:

[mad_jock]

The accent of the lady that does it properly.

Wouldn't be slightly ruff scottish would it?

Remember sexy voice equals huge arse.

Ruff wedgie equals quite pleasant to the eye with big err better stop.

MJ

[antonybradford]

My original point was just that simetimes, some pilots take too much time over RT, though I think my point has been nulled out by very good points.

I have to say I agree with what you guys are saying, practice doesnt necessarily follow how the CAA preach, after all, the CAA speculates obscure rules and regulations / practices and proceedures at the best of times! :D

Antony:

[RNGrommits]

Anthony
I, personally as a controller, talk normally. I use the correct Rt such as Tree for three etc when:

a. I am talking to a foreign pilot, to whom English is definitely a second language (& who if you say anything outside of ICAO standard will just end up in many extra transmissions) or
b. Anyone flying who obviously has problems thinking, flying and speaking at the same time – there are many out there.

Much of the extra words you here out there are thinking time. Many (if not all) controllers at a LARS unit (Mil or Civil) will know the problem of those that hit the transmit before the brain catches up. (obviously that never happens to us ATCOs!).
Many a time have I had a life history, colour of underwear or general synopsis of global political events without being told position, heading, height or destination.

[Spitoon]

On the business of standard RT being a bit OTT, it's true that the books tell you the 'right way' but things are a bit more relaxed in the real world. But when things are going wrong standard RT is unambiguous and the most likely to be clearly understood. The trouble is that if you've never learned the 'right way'you can't fall back on it.

Same applies to lots of other things and not just aviation things.

[Atcham Tower]

And the restroom fridge gets cleaned more than once a year ....:D

[mad_jock]

CAA speculates obscure rules and regulations / practices and proceedures

To be honest they are not that bad. It just takes a little time for your experence level to build up enough to realise why they say you have to do it a certain way. Some you take with a pinch of salt (mobile phones on in a light aircraft) and others you break at your peril (fly at under 200ft above liverpool city center)

They really don't make them up for the fun of it. Most are brought in post accidents to stop it occuring again in the future. Time passes we forget why the regulation was changed. Then start bitching that its a stupid reg.

MJ

Atcham Tower A very perceptive post :D

[coolbeans]

Sexy voice doesnt always = huge arse, have some faith.


5 women! God I would kill to work there. Far to much testosterone our tower.

Ladies I salute you
:ok:

[Pilot747]

in regards to Irritable ATC has anyone ever flown out of Long Beach there is one Guy goes by the name Todd he really does piss everyone of. incorrect readbacks and your gonna get an earful from him nobody likes him i wonder if he knows what its like being a pilot

[bottom rung]

Do any of the pilots who have posted on this thread actually know how to use a spellchecker? :}

[antonybradford]

Like i've said before now, were pilots, who cares about spelling! lol.

You could just see it if we did. Example:

1st officer is writing down clearence amendments after a change in clearence.

Captain: "Could you just read back to me the Assigned alt at Tango 5?"
1st officer: " We r cleaned too....ah F$*K thats not how you spell that, just a second..."

I appreciate its a little different when your at home typing on your computer though lol, you get the point.


There is some female pilot who i've heard in EGGP zone a few times now, she sounds like a right piece...ahem....I mean she sounds very tasty....ahem.....very nice person. :ok:


Antony

[mad_jock]

It does matter Antony.

And all clearance are written in short hand so not much room there.

A typical written clearance from MAN would P1Y 4563.

Spelling does matter. Most information is passed on by written form so its documented. If you write it down like a chump. Everyone presumes your a chump.

Bloody hell one of the worst offenders for crap spelling and grammar is lecturing someone why you should make the effort.

MJ

[eyeinthesky]

mad jock:

One of the risks of setting yourself up in judgement over others is you risk making yourself look an idiot (as I know to my cost!).

Therefore, I have copied your latest post below and punctuated and spelt it correctly, just so we are all agreed on the standard about which we are arguing.;)

Quote

It does matter, Antony.

All clearances are written in short hand so not much room there.

A typical written clearance from MAN would P1Y 4563.

Spelling does matter. Most information is passed on by written form so it's documented. If you write it down like a chump, everyone presumes you're a chump.

Bloody hell! One of the worst offenders for crap spelling and grammar is lecturing someone why you should make the effort!

Unquote

Now standing by for the brickbats about my own errors!

By the way, generally speaking from my own experience in NATS ATC, the inverse ratio of voice beauty to physical beauty seems to be the norm.

[ATCO Two]

"Spelling does matter. Most information is passed on by written form so its documented. If you write it down like a chump. Everyone presumes your a chump".

Mad_jock - IT'S documented! YOU'RE a chump!

Oh, and punctuation is important too!

Sorry, could not resist.

:p

[Dizzee Rascal]

Wouldn't be slightly ruff scottish would it?

Ahh, thats where it's from!;) I never could work it out!

Remember sexy voice equals huge arse.

Ah hm. I think I should own up to having contributed to Sam's huge arse but the takewaways in Cardiff during our aerodrome course were just too nice to turn down!:ouch:

WSFDB

[mad_jock]

See what I mean.

I knew I would get grief.

Rascal your on your own mate. They teach the kids how to fight with weapons in primary school where she comes from.

Anyway I wasn't on about her arse. ;)

MJ

Waiting for someone to correct this one as well

[JustaFew]

Can only be a journo, starting a thread, 'Irritable ATC', when your whinge is about fellow pilots!!!

Having worked at Heathrow, and with you, Bren, I am surprise to hear your 'I doubt Liverpool is busy etc.', I am enjoying my ATCO career just as you did yours albeit in different circumstances, presumptions are unnecessary.

Clean rest rooms? There'll be lockers in the tower next, Atcham Towers!! The beginnings of a crab empire, me thinks:p

[antonybradford]

Ha ha, I knew this would happen. You try an set up a conversation about aviation and it ends up becoming some what off track (that’s allowed as it is an aviation term!).


And just for the call I can spell without too much of an effort, though plucking up the enthusiasm to use a spell checker is some what difficult being a student lol.

Well now that’s out of my system, hopefully I’m off to do my first solo Nav to Welshpool tomorrow all being well, so wish me luck!

Happy flying, and may all your total takeoffs be followed by the same amount of landings! lol Seriously though, be safe!

Antony

[Arkady]

The Captain, smirking in his left hand seat,observed to the FO that the spell checker on his PC corrects co-pilot to copulate.

FO, keeping an absolutely straight face, observed only a Captain would need a spell checker to spell co-pilot.

[WorkingHard]

Any ATC guys or gals want an experience flight in a SEP i am more than happy to oblige. My base is mid Lincolnshire but anywhere within reason. i may not always like what you tell me over the R/T but by golly i ALWAYS pleased your there so if i can oblige I shall.

[av8boy]

Is northern California "within reason?" I'm hankering for a ride...

:D


Dave

[britkit]

As a rule, the niceties aren't supposed to be used, but most GA pilots like the politeness that some ATS providers give their customers.
I know of one chap who constantly greets his pilots with 'Sir' and 'Ma'am' despite being a civillian. Now personally I think that's going over the top, but he just thinks he's being polite and giving 'good customer service' - I suppose you could argue it both ways, but I'm not a fan.
The odd nicety can ease things, such as ATC saying thank you to a pilot who's 'helped' them out, such as doing an airborne relay or making a smart decision before the ATCO has too.
It's up to you, the RTF manual says the use of courtesies should be avoided, which they certainly are in busier airspace, but those of us with the luxury of a little spare space on the frequency may indulge every now and again.

Britkit

[Atcham Tower]

Britkit, your last paragraph sums it up perfectly!

[ElNino]

the niceties aren't supposed to be used

No, but virtually all controllers say hello and goodbye, as do pilots.
And it's quite definitely the way it should be. I don't ever recall a bit of politeness stopping me getting a call in.

antonybradford, I suspect with it a bit more experience you will be a lot more relaxed about ATC and will be less bothered by others niceties. You might even use them yourself!

[mad_jock]

Its strange as well if you work the same units the mental image you have of some controllers. And i am sure they do the same with pilots.

There is a Bloke at MAN on radar and tower who has what I think is a great manner. Nothing ever seems to phase him. Very pleasant doesn't have the most correct RT but gets the job done being pleasant, with a dry sense of humour which he has no problems using on the RT. The end result that the flight crew want to help him. I imagine him as a grandad who likes nothing better than a glass of wine while the kids are opening xmas presents shrugging off bollockings from granny and daughters with "yes dear" and continuing as before spoiling the kids.

Now a female controller at BHX I imagine as a twisted old crone with fag teeth and a deep hatred of men. Who I take great pleasure being nice to because it completly knocks her off her stride being crabbie on the RT.

MJ

[EGCC4284]

"good day sir"

Sorry to say this but I hate anyone calling anyone else "Sir"

I cringe when I hear it

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Sorry to say this but I hate anyone calling anyone else "Sir">>

Then you have some sort of complex because I eas brought up to underatand that it is a normal greeting to a gent whose name you do not know. I have used and received it all my life - what's the problem?

[Spamcan defender]

Mad Jock - Re the female BHX controller........know exactly where your coming from mate. I always try and be 'ultra nice' when I can for the same reasons. Your right tho, does seem to irritate her more :E :E


S D