Instructing aerobatics

[Rivet gun]

An instructor rating is required to teach for a licence or rating or where there is a mandatory training requirement such as differences training.

However, as far as I am aware there is no such thing as an "aerobatic rating" or any formal training requirement for aerobatics. Presumably therefore any pilot skilled in aerobatics could teach these skills to another pilot: an instructor rating would not be required?

Why then are FI ratings sometimes endorsed "no aerobatic instruction except spinning"? Would this restriction apply only where the student does not hold a valid licence or rating for the type?

What about other flying skills for which no mandatory training reqirement exists, e.g. formation flying or farm strip ops. Is an instructor rating required to teach these skills?

[DB6]

The JAR FI(R) rating is issued with various restrictions, one of which is 'no aerobatics etc.', as you said. To teach aerobatics the instructor must undergo a course at the end of which there is a flight test and then the restriction may be removed (after parting with the correct amount of shekels of course). Restrictions are: no night, no IMC, no aerobatics. Just to further complicate matters, the (R) is removed when you have qualified to send students first solo, nothing to do with any of the restrictions just mentioned. Clearer now?:E
Formation, farm strip etc. are not restrictions under JAR so you don't need any additional qualifications to teach them. You still need an FI rating though (if you're being paid).

[BillieBob]

You still need an FI rating though (if you're being paid). No, you don't. An instructor rating is only required to give instruction for the grant of a pilot's licence; and the inclusion or variation of any rating or qualification in a licence.

[foxmoth]

OK, but if you are being paid and it is for flying then you will need a commercial licence:=

[Rivet gun]

Thanks everybody for your replys.

From BillieBob's reply it seems that an instructor rating is required only to instruct for the grant of a licence or for the inclusion or variation of a rating or qualification in a license. As there is no "aerobatic rating", then it would follow that an instructor rating is not required to teach aerobatics?

So if (hypothecically) I wanted to learn aerobatics, and if I could find someone willing to teach me, that teacher would not have to hold an instructor rating (or even a valid license). Legally I would be PIC and the teacher would be a passenger. Of course the teacher would need to manupulate the controls, but I think there is nothing which prevents a passenger manipulating the controls in a dual control aeroplane providing the PIC occupies the pilots seat.

Same would apply to teaching formation flying.

Or am I missing something?

[FlyingForFun]

My understanding is as follows:

I have a "no aerobatics" restriction on my FI rating. That means that, any time I log a flight as an instructional flight, I may not perform aerobatics. I can not, legally, demonstrate a loop to a trial lesson, nor teach aerobatics to someone who approaches me via my school.

On the other hand, if my friend who has a PPL were to approach me privately and ask me, privately, if I could teach him aeros, I could do that. It would not be able to be logged as an instructional flight (so one of the two of us would be P1, the other would be pax and not able to log the flight) - it would simply be a private flight during which we did some aeros.

That's just my understanding, though, and not based on anything official.

FFF
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[DB6]

Rivet, correct. There is nothing to stop anyone teaching each other aerobatics and not that much wrong with it either once you have mastered the basics . There is a lot more to aerobatics than just flying the manoeuvre i.e what to do if it all goes wrong, but if you have sorted all that out then sure, get up there and try things with a mate - mutual critique, it's called. But don't do it if you're just starting out. Deep **** and no bogroll time.
FFF, sounds about right. I'm not sure a demo loop is out of the question but teaching is frowned upon. After all, you could be looping in your spare time, har har.
And correcting the above: CPL for being paid, FI rating for logging the time :\

[FatFlyer]

Though it makes sense to allow an experienced (yet not instructor qualified) aerobatic pilot to teach aeros to another qualified pilot, there is, I believe, a legal technicality which would stop it.
There is a rule which prohibits the commander from allowing a passenger to move any of the controls, ( can't remember the exact wording).
So if I were flying with an experienced aero pilot, with me as P1, technically, I could not pass control to him to demonstrate the manouevre as he is a passenger.
If he were to assume command, then he would need to be qualified to teach.

[Rivet gun]

Hi FatFlyer

Is there a rule which prevents a passenger from manipulating the controls? I haven't come across it, can you quote the ANO or JAR refernce.

The only rule I know of is ANO 41 which requires a pilot to remain at the controls, but if the aeroplane is dual controlled, this does not prevent a passenger from manipulating the other set of controls.

[hugh flung_dung]

Many people choose to do the AOPA aerobatic certificate course as a structured way to learn basic aeros. The AOPA syllabus intro says: "The course consists of a minimum of 8 hours dual flying with an instructor who is qualified to give aerobatic instruction.".

Regardless of whether or not someone is aiming at the AOPA certificate I would recommend using an experienced aero instructor rather than a mate. Learning aerobatics consists of becoming confident and relaxed in any attitude, having total faith in your "teacher" and aircraft, knowing where to look (and when) to get the info you need, and the techniques for waggling the stick, rudder or throttle. An experienced aero instructor will have dealt with these aspects many times, a mate may not.
The only exception to this may be if you can find someone who's competing at advanced or unlimited level and who has the appropriate temperament for teaching whatever you need.

HFD

[mad_jock]

Fatflyer unlike America there isn't even a requirment for the PIC to sit in the normal command seat. ie if in a PA28 nothing stoping a none instructor sitting in the RHS as PIC.

And the if you look at the CAA recomendations for the pilot safety course. It tells them post course to go and practise.

MJ