exodus

[Lara crofts pants]

Is it just me, or is there the beginnings of a mass exodus of group 2 pilots in the making?
I can't quantify with any figures, just wondering if anyone else had noticed

[monkeybumhead]

Not just you aeroplane drivers, you should see how many techies are jumping ship at the moment. It's quite scarey.

[Jobza Guddun]

And allegedly (unconfirmed) another 1000 redundancies from TGs 1 and 2?

Great, we'll soon have one aircraft each......

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

LCP

No - it isn't just you. All my mates either have an ATPL or are thinking about how best to get one(That is for the ones who haven't left already). ME PVR's are sky high, and everyone is taking options to leave. The AT fleet has gone from +70 pilots last year, to -5 now.

The current airline recruitment drive has made the timing right for a lot of people. I wouldn't bank on a lift by ASCOT aircraft this time next year, but then again, we've not exactly been reliable lately anyway!!

[pma 32dd]

We were 76 overborne, now -5

ips increased by 25 next year for multis

pma 32dd

[Lara crofts pants]

Sad state of affairs. I too, am the proud owner of a brand new ATPL and making my move to leave despite PA offer. Something I'd never have thought of doing 3 or 4 years ago.

[PileUp Officer]

Hmmm.. I bet this cheers up all the guys who made it through Shawbury or Linton/Valley were subsequently chopped and told “Sorry old chap you’re not good enough to fly multis, thanks for wasting three years of your youth though” (Read: We have no spaces for ME restreams)

Not


It really is staggering how unbelievably incompetent the people at the top are.

This has been a long time coming and I sincerely hope some top brass f**kwit gets it in the neck….


and pigs might fly.

[FOMere2eternity]

There isn't an exodus at all - since June I've personally spoken to two people who plan to stay after their next option point. Well ok, one hasn't got another option point cos he's a WO, but the other is looking forward to a lifetime career.

In the Bible they didn't mention leaving anybody behind in Egypt, so talk of an exodus is rubbish.

Everyone else I have spoken with on this subject has mentioned leaving as soon as they possibly can but I think this is just a statistical error, common in surveys of this kind; in reality I suspect three or four of those surveyed are staying in...

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

On the bright side, they should get their first choice of posting. . . .

[ZH875]

On the bright side, they should get their first choice of posting. . . .Unless Mr Brown Closes the Base Down...Good financial Sense... Save a few Pence.

[Eye off the ball]

I for one am making a run for it. PVR was in a while ago and the days just can't pass quickly enough.

My PVR must have gone in when we were flush since I was put in a nice desk job to make absolutely certain that I wouldn't change my mind. Strange that you must still amortise a flying course but frequently get hauled off flying duties; not sure where the 'return of service' is?

In fairness, I was offered, in pure career terms at least, some promising opportunities but none came close to swinging the balance. The best career opportunities were never going to compensate for a fundamental lack of spending and an incremental erosion of terms and conditions. The promises of 'we're addressing the raft of issues such as overstretch' have come to nothing, the new equipment programmes (many at least) are slippping further to the right and financial expediency (flattering term) is the order of the day.

"Vote with your feet if you don't like it! " All right then, I will. Nothing will change but I will be happier and I'm convinced that my long term lifestyle will be substantialy better than the one that I seemed to be facing.

[LFFC]

......... and just wait and see what happens once all those PA Spine types qualify for their big new pension scheme in April!

Somehow I don't think we've seen anything yet.

Meanwhile, I hear that next to no Sqn Ldr pilots have been taking their options to stay in past age 38 as Career Spine aircrew! I wonder why?

---------------
PileUp Officer

I can understand your frustration. The trouble is that, it's mainly our ME captains' hours and experience that the airlines want - and that leaves us with loads of co-pilots who do not have enough experience to become captains just yet, and very few slots for ab-initios!

I guess that's also another reason why they wanted to pull as many QFIs out of UAS duties as they could. UAS QFIs were, more often than not, experienced ME pilots .......... and while we're on that subject, I'd love to know where we're going to grow enough ME QFIs for front-line training duties in the future!

[rudolf]

Made the switch several months ago, best thing I ever did.

Grass isn't greener on the other side but it generally comes with a gardener to do the mundane work.

Go to work, fly, land, go home. Much less stress, good luck to those that wish to stay but for those unsure make the switch.

IMHO

Rudolf

[Compressorstall]

Is this just a ME exodus? As we have PMA comment on here, it would be good to know the state of the nation?

[LFFC]

No - I hear that it's just as big a problem in the FJ world.

But I heard an interesting rumour today........ Apparently there is soon to be an announcement saying that all aircrew sqn ldrs over the age of 40 will be transferred to the PA spine wef Apr 06.

Of course, this will not prevent them being promoted back into the Career Spine at some later date.

I understand that this move is designed to allow sqn ldr aircrew to take advantage of the new pension system and is an attempt to stem the "haemorrhage" of important middle-management who have been badly disadvantaged.

Has anyone else heard about this? I'm a bit cynical myself - I would have thought they would make the announcement after Apr 06!

;)

[inditrees]

Its not just the ME and FJ lads that are getting their ATPLs and leaving in droves. At least half the RW world have been seen going for interviews in Aberdeen with CHC

Loyalty.........Ah yes I remember those days......

[BEagle]

And yet when I wrote the paper all those years ago which led to the CAA accreditation towards a CPL or ATPL, it was seen as a retention incentive.... Yet nowadays people, it seems, are so exasperated and pi$$ed off that many are starting work on their licences long before reaching the 2000TT/1500PIC qualifying figure. It was intended that people would work happily for HMFC until reaching that total, then either leave, go 'Spec Aircrew' (as it then was) - or crawl further up the career ladder.

Overstretched work force
Ageing equipment
No end in sight to the Iraq and Afghanistan operations
Increasing embuggerances (e.g. OFT)

Is it any wonder that pilots are leaving?

[SmilingKnifed]

I was absolutely gutted at being chopped at the end of AFT and felt like I had no future at all in aviation. To now be on the cusp of finishing my ATPL and knowing that I'm reasonably good with a bit of confidence, I'm starting to think it was the best thing that could have happened.

It's no fun working for a bankrupt company.

[Hofmeister]

It's not just ME pilots. 80% of FJ Sqn Ldr pilots left at 38 in the last year!!!!

[SirToppamHat]

I asked a PMA bod (a few years ago) about retention and whether he/they considered the fact that so many of our best people were leaving at the 38/16 point was a problem.

The point I was trying to make was that it would be more cost-effective to put at least some money into retention than simply to ignore the problem. At the time my Branch was about 20% down on numbers for the Control specialisation and didn't seem to be able to recruit enough people that could pass the course (10 on my course, less than 2 passed).

The response was typically PMA. People join with a sort of contract. If they leave at the end of that contract, it's nothing to do with retention - it's not even seen as an issue, let alone an actual problem. It is planned for and trg rates are adjusted accordingly, along with offers of assimiliation.

Possibly the same in the FJ World?

STH

[LFFC]

Just This Once...

Perhaps the smell of coffee has triggered rapid eye movement. Sadly, I doubt it very much! PMA have had nearly 2 years in which they must have seen this coming, but today's rumour is the first hint I've had that they might be trying to do something about it.

However, I'm sceptical because they're leaving it very late in the day if they really have got people's interests in mind. I think it's far more likely that they will try to save a bit of money and wait until people are committed to staying on the old pension scheme before they make any announcement.

But on the other hand, as good Investers In People, maybe they will prove me wrong!

[CashMachine]

If I were one of you flying types, I'd try and get out as soon as possible.
Think about it, all the experienced groundcrew are getting out as soon as they can, who do you think will be servicing your aircraft then (and more importantly supervising them!!)? And they'll all be overstretched as well! As much as they'll try, do you really think they'll give you a good service!!!!!
The Air force/Army/Navy are dead, long live the British Defence Force, it makes much more financial sense!!!!:ok:

[BEagle]

"How shall we fcuk off, O Lord?"

from 'Monty Python's Life of Brian'

Actually, I fear that quite a few will choose this option in the forthcoming months. Perhaps unsurprisingly.

When I was doing PVR-porridge at Binnsworth, one of the deskOs came in one day and we got chatting. "You lucky so-and-so", he said, "I wish I was going - the RAF is just collapsing in on itself!"

[Phil_McCrevis]

If there's a potential developing prob in the fast jet world of large numbers leaving, why are they about to restream the vast majority of guys waiting for valley?

How about using a bit of forsight and making a preventative measure as aposed to a reactional one?

When ppl are being treated as such i'm not surprised so many have, or are planning to leave

PC

[LFFC]

Phil_McCrevis

Overlooking all of the problems at Valley and on the OCUs, you can't just dump a whole load of ab-initios onto a sqn. Who would train them, mentor them and supervise them if all the experience had left? The "dilution rates" of ab-initios on sqns used to be quite strictly enforced - I wonder how things are going now?

Unfortunately, we seem to have got ourselves into a vicious circle of decline. Maybe PMA are finally thinking of ways to rectify it - and if the rumour mentioned above is true, then it would be a preventative measure!

[Bob Viking]

There's an awful lot of speculation about the fast jet world, but not alot of fact coming out on this thread.
Even less still from the rotary fraternity.
Maybe this really IS a ME problem!

This really is a happy thread though. Cheered my Sunday up no end!
Bunch of miserable b@stards!
BV

[rafmannot51]

One wonders if the Service was to become more transparent that the rumour control would cease. Yeh right! For those not getting the 'hot info' and rely on PPRune and other rumour sources the picture is not only dire but confused!:confused: The problem seems to be one of a large number of people not trusting what is officially pronounced - a sad state of affairs.

[An Teallach]

Why go back to Exodus for understanding? I'd have thought it would come from John 1:1

In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Overstretch erat Verbum.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and Overstretch was the word.

Not bad for a presbyterian aetheist, eh?

[Impiger]

AT

Can you be a presbyterian atheist? Sounds mutually exclusive to me.

I do think there are a lot of miserable old bu&&ers out there on a Sunday though.

Throughout my time - which is now nearing a natural end - the manning balance has been cockeyed. Even in the late seventies people were predicting the complete collapse of the Service because all the pilots were leaving at 38. The same reason has been quoted for our impending demise many times since. I'm left with the conclusion that there is a dynamic in pilot manning that is completely impervious to any attempts to control it. But recruiting is still bouyant so to all those disgruntled old moaners I say - go and good ridance as you obviously have a highly inflated notion of your value to the Service. Stand aside and let in some young blood who want to be involved and who don't just drip about the place.

[An Teallach]

Hi Impiger

Mutually exclusive? No, not really. To me it basically means that while I've discounted the Kirk o' Jock "Gospel so cold it could freeze all the joy in men's hearts" and the notion of a supreme being, I'm still left with some of the values of being brought up in the Kirk o' Jock.

As to the morale issue, my first boss in the Service told me that, when the troops stop moaning, that's the time to start worrying!

[brit bus driver]

They would have to make such an announcement v-quick. Some have already returned their OTT pack.

Yes, they bl00dy well have! Still, doubt it'll make a jot of difference...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

12 months ago it was the contract captains in the commercial world that noticed how the market had picked up and reported it on PPRuNe. At the moment the airline captains have started to notice that we have returned to a pre-911 marketplace. Ryan have stopped requiring payment to read CV's though they don't advertise the fact. ThompsonFly are hosting a recruitmet day for direct entry Captains next week in Luton where they don't even have an operation.

Virgin and BA and other top draw airlines are recruiting on an ongoing basis. The continental big airlines are within a whisker of recruiting again which is going to draw a lot of ex-pat Boeing/Airbus pilots back out of the UK.

The military are going to find themselves back in 1999 again. With opportunites abundant outside and the money better they will be scrabbling with retention in a way that they haven't had to since Sept 12th.

All power to your elbow. Civilianisation, ageing equipment, lack of respect and overstretch all combine to offer a very valid reason for ditching the service of Liz. A keen alternative is probably all many of you are waiting for.

I wouldn't blame you and the waters lovely.

Cheers

WWW

[Blacksheep]

ThompsonFly are hosting a recruitment day for direct entry Captains next week in Luton where they don't even have an operation.Good Joke!

You are joking aren't you? :confused:

(Clue: Rule Britannia... ;) )

[Wyler]

'Less than 2 passed'. That'll be one then.

[LFFC]

Civilianisation, ageing equipment, lack of respect and overstretch all combine to offer a very valid reason for ditching the service of Liz. I think that most aircrew will cope stoically with the civilianisation, ageing equipment and overstretch - sadly, I think it will be the lack of respect that drives many career spine sqn ldrs to leave.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

:p Wyler - that's about 60 hours! flash-to-bang time, possibly a forum record! :p