Military Rank of a Civilian Captain

[Jinkster]

I understand that Police chiefs and Fire chiefs have an equivalent military rank and therefore should be saluted.

What about an airline captain?

:)

[Avtrician]

Nope. its only a title granted by the airline, not an emergency service.

[VitaminGee]

Not until they get their atpl unfrozen!!:E

VG

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ooh, Corporal would be about right I reckon. Unless an airline captain has an aircraft touching his shoes then he's Joe Civilian. If he has and its his then he's Commander in Chief.

Would be my view.

WWW

[Jinkster]

thanks for the replies

VG - :E hahahhahahah!

[Logistics Loader]

At no time in my service career did i ever get taught a civvy copper of fire chief gets saluted...!!!

They do not hold the Queens Commision, which even if you hate F/L Albert Pilot who wears it, you are saluting Lizz Two Stroke....

I for one never saluted anyone from the emergency services....
Only "civvy" I recall saluting was the Bertie Ahem....!!!!

I can imagine the SWO at any station pulling up a 4 ringer civvy aircraft capt and telling him he is incorrectly dressed as most civvy pilots i've seen dont wear hats anymore....that would be the clue to saluting them would it not...???

[Role1a]

It depends if youre late for check in or not !!!!

[JessTheDog]

I understand that Police chiefs and Fire chiefs have an equivalent military rank and therefore should be saluted.

I recall seeing senior ranks of both these emergency services wandering around the large piece of Bucks real estate (that would surely be sold off if houses could be built on it) on pultiple occasions, presumably visiting for conferences or meetings of some type.

At no time did I ever see compliments being paid by airmen or officers. I cannot ever recall being briefed on equivalent ranks at any stage in my career and I have never heard of police/fire service personnel exchanging salutes, although they do have parades during training.

[Climebear]

It is very sad that I know this but here goes. It is true that we should salute offrs of the emergency services QRJ158 Compliments in Special Cases refers:

(1) An officer of HM diplomatic or other non-military service is entitled to the honours and salutes appertaining to his office.

[handysnaks]

As pc's don't salute their own officers I don't see why any body else should.

However, I'm glad to see that in these modern times we've got people worrying about important things like this!:rolleyes:

[Logistics Loader]

I dont have access to it anymore but JSP 356, has a list of ranks for all three services and it used to have the EMR's (Equivalent Military Rank) for civilians...

eg....
An AO would be equiv to F/L
Professor would obviously be higher up the food chain...probably in region of Harry Staish or 1 Star area....

Rarely do you see PC Plod saluting Sir Chief Constabule on his rounds...in fact dont think i ever have....

[FJJP]

Re QRJ158 - I think what that is refering to is not the individual, but the post he holds, and probably during specific ceremonies at that. For example, a British Ambassador abroad would be entitled to a salute if he were inspecting a parade - but you would not salute him if you passed him in the street, or he passed you in his car.

Unless, of course, someone can quote chapter and verse...

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

My brother in law was a Principal in the MOD (retired now). When he used to go to meetings in Berlin before the wall came down he was given the equivalent rank of Brigadier but only in terms of accommodation, transport etc. He never got saluted........

Cheers,

NEO.

[Army Mover]

I think you're all being wound up - New_WO1 anybody ???:E

[The Real Slim Shady]

Well, when I was a Captain (civvy) they told me I was really Senior Management, and gave me a whole bunch of business cards ........................with the wrong phone number.

Then, when I was Senior Management, they told me I was just a Captain, and gave me a whole bunch of business cards with..................................... the wrong phone number.

So where do I stand?

Well, I guess slightly lower than a snake's belly.

Then I could be wrong: depends if I'm wearing my management hat or not wearing the hat the company doesn't issue to pilots.

[blagger]

What about civilian ranked military aircrew - e.g. Capts at DEFTS, MELIN and DHFS? Do they have an equivalence?

[santiago15]

Slight aside, but I reckon everyone should salute aircrew-regardless of rank! I can just see it now: a blunty staish chopping one up to a Sgt loadie.

[Logistics Loader]

S15...

I'd gladly throw 1 up to a Sgt Loadie,

Cuz inside of my hand i'd have C U Next Tuesday tattoed on it....!!

But then again as Airmen Aircrew dont hold Queens Commission.... you have got as much chance of a salute as i have of spending the night with Rachel Stevens....!!!!

Zilch !!!

[handysnaks]

Slight aside, but I reckon everyone should salute aircrew-regardless of rank! I can just see it now: a blunty staish chopping one up to a Sgt loadie.

Used to happen, as a Lance Corporal Observer at Wildenrath once my teeny little half wing was seen, the snowdrops used to throw me up a smart one every time:p

[Logistics Loader]

Handy,

The Army did the same when rank slides for SAC's were introduced...

Anything on the shoulders warranted a salute in Army parlance...until they clicked...

[Washington_Irving]

I understand that Police chiefs and Fire chiefs have an equivalent military rank and therefore should be saluted.

Waaahhh!:}

[BEagle]

The only salute I ever got as a civilian was from an old-fashioned AA man at Halcon corner in Taunton many years ago! If they didn't salute a member, it meant that there was a speed trap nearby.....

[teeteringhead]

Policemen used to salute their senior officers ..... it became dangerous for Velocette LE mounted officers to do so, so they were allowed to made a fairly formal nod of the head to an officer (Inspectors and above). Hence the name "Noddy Bike".

There is of course one way that any civilian can get saluted .......

.... I belive it is still policy that when in uniform one should salute a funeral cortege.........

..... probably out-of-date now, but I was also taught to salute ladies (no definition provided!!), as the equivalent of raising ones hat. And on the rare occasions I find myself in uniform these days, I still do it.

So for Teeters, the answer is:

yes, providing that you are either:

a. a lady

b. dead

c. all of the above .........

[4fitter]

I'm with Teeters on this one. I recall being taught that you saluted a lady you recognised and like him, I still do it even if it is SAC Snook's wife.
Never have and never will salute 'equivalent' ranks and the same goes for politicians.

4f

[Thud_and_Blunder]

This is one even the Americans (see WO_1 thread) have sorted - I often have to go through a US-manned (or should that be "personned"?) checkpoint with my gopping civvy 4-bars, but none of them have ever threatened to bung one up yet.

[Logistics Loader]

they probably reckoned you were a customer and exercise officer, thereby you dont warrant a salute....

on the other hand....going through an american checkpoint, they allowed me through on a library ticket...!!!!

[Proman]

Sad reading (i.e. I'm sure I had better things to do at the time I found this), but you'll find the latest gen on civvy equivalents at the bottom of this page:

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/ukds/2005/c2/table227.html

[Butty]

I often have to go through a US-manned (or should that be "personned"?)
I think "staffed" is the word you're looking for.

[HighlandSniper58]

I don't know about officers of the police and fire service etc., but HM Customs Officers do hold The Queen's Commision.

[Logistics Loader]

HS58

Can you shed further light on that one!!!

Not heard that in all my time working closely with the Customs guys...

[Cat5 in the Hat]

Nice link Proman.

Say one is employed as a C2 in the Civil Service, and the job is RAFR(CC), commisioned as a Flt Lt (OF-2).

C2 is apparently OF-3 (Squabbling Bleeder) equivalent.

Interesting........!

[ZH875]

C2 is apparently OF-3 (Squabbling Bleeder) equivalent. maybe 'equivalent status' certainly not 'equivalent'

[BossEyed]

Even 'equivalent status' is not possible to justify, IMO, using any criterion - especially responsibility.

When I was a Civil Serf, there were similar official "tables of equivalence" going around, with Senior Executive Officer (now Band C-1) equivalent status to Commander/Wg Cdr/Lt Col as in that link.

It was tosh then, and it's tosh now.

[Climebear]

Never in the field of pprune forums have so many written so much about so little. Must be quiet out there!

[UberPilot]

Interesting! Apparantly my £9 an hour temp job as an EO has equivalent to Flt Lt and my thick-as-**** "boss" as an SEO is a Wing Co!! Does this mean that if I "temped" in the MOD I'd out-rank a Fg Off as a temp scroat?

[Logistics Loader]

UP,

bout the size of it me thinks !!!

[Jimlad]

Being a civil servant in MOD and a reservist I'm trying to get used to being a Naval Lieutenant in my spare time and then going on deployment with the Army and being called "Major Jimlad".

The really stupid thing is that last time I was at Chilwell to do pre-deployment training the Army SSGT got VERY upset when I said I'm not "Major Jimlad" I'm "Mr Jimlad" as I was there as a Civvy.

Claiming a rank to which you're not entitled is the height of pretension in my book.

[HighlandSniper58]

HS58

Can you shed further light on that one!!!

Not heard that in all my time working closely with the Customs guys...

Customs & Excise officer have been commissioned for at least 2 centuries - it originated in the same way that an army or naval officer was commisioned by the crown to fulfill a specific task. I was an officer in HM Customs & Excise for almost 20 years, and I have my commission hanging here on my study wall.

Yes, there is direct rank parity - I ranked S/L, Major, Lieut. Cdr. at the time I escaped. Some bases seem more aware of the rank parity than others, but there is an official rank comparison - shame it didn't also apply to pay!

[Logistics Loader]

HS58,

Well as they say, you learn something new everyday...!!

I certainly wasnt aware of the C & E Commision awarded for you guys...and i've had the pleasure of working with a few over the years...who knows we may have worked together too...??

[beerdrinker]

Now that Inland Revenue and HM Customs have been merged in to HM Reveue and Customs, does that mean that the Taxman is now an Officer and Gentleman?

[Roland Pulfrew]

I standby to be corrected but I seem to remember that Inspectors and above in the police are commisioned officers and receive a scroll from HMQ. IIRC an Inspector was deemed to be between Fg Off and Flt Lt Rank and Chief Inspector was Sqn Ldr equivalent. I am sure we were taught at Sleaford Tech that senior police officers should be saluted by more junior military personnel. It may have changed now since the pink and fluffy brigade in the PC Police stopped saluting their own!!

I also remember, as HS58 does that, HM C & E were commisioned and had equivalency but the brain cells cannot remember what the equivalency was!!

With regard to civil serpants, it would come as no surprise, I guess, that the "equivalency" between CS and HM Forces is dictated by the civil serpants. Anyone noticed a bit of grade creep here in recent years? :mad:

[BossEyed]

Anyone noticed a bit of grade creep here in recent years?

Not in recent years - it's been as wrong as it is today for at least 25.

[Pub User]

Roland is right. Inspectors and above are commisioned officers. As a plod in the early 80's I (and my colleagues) used to salute them when outdoors.

[Logistics Loader]

PU,

Genuine ques, what changed ???

Doesn't happen anymore from what i've seen

[Pub User]

I don't know what changed, I've been away from the game for over 20 years.

However, even then it wasn't very common, as inspectors were rarely wandering the streets anyway, and if either of you was dealing with any sort of incident at the time, the salute would be forgotten. It really only happened if a PC happened to meet up with the Inspector while on foot patrol.

[Davey Emcee]

In my days, if it moved you saluted it if it didn't you painted it:p

[Michael Edic]

Going back to the militay equivalences why is the RAF OD level officer designate? The chaps at IOT are Off Cdt or Stdnt Off not Officer Designate. Anyone ever heard of it?
Sorry the mornings bring out my pedantic and spotterish side

[Droopystop]

Why on earth would anyone from the military want to salute a civvy pilot? Do you guys run about saluting bus drivers? (No offence to bus drivers)

[Logistics Loader]

IIRC,

An Off Cdt/ Student Off/ Off Des, is not the holder of the Queens Commision until graduation. Therefore even they do not warrant being saluted..

I will stand corrected though....

The Army used to call them Potential Officers i think...

[Ops and Mops]

LL

Just to clarify that for RAF students;

An Officer Cadet (OC) is a non commissioned airman with the status of "Officer Under training" and is used on University Air Squadrons and at OACTU for Direct Entrants and Branch Commissions.

A Student Officer (SO) has already been commissioned, but their commission will not be confirmed until completion of IOT. This rank is used only at whilst at OACTU for Graduate Entrants, Specialist Entrants and Reserve Officers undertaking ROIT Phase 3.

Both wear the same white rank badges/hat bands etc and are not saluted whilst wearing these ranks.

[Logistics Loader]

OM,
Thanks for that my learned friend....

I can remember a Warrant Officer shredding an Officer Cadet because he thought he was above his station....

Made me chuckle...:O
He is probably a Lt Col now though....:rolleyes:

[Whossat Forrus]

As the captain of a civilian commercial aircraft I do not expect a salute, deference from individuals qualified to execute their duties, and I certainly do NOT have the right to be called "Sir". As a matter of fact I make a point of it. I have retired from military life and hold those who remain serving HM in the highest regard. A civilian pilot has only his own dignity, courtesy and benevolence to earn the respect he should wish for, as indeed the majority do. There is no commonality or equivalence between those who necessarily risk their own lives in the course of duty and those who have chosen to pilot aircraft or undertake any task purely for renumeration. We should never afford any commercially appointed individual the status enjoyed by even the most junior officer in any of the three services, but should reward them with the due regard their own extraordinary and professional efforts to achieve and retain their positions so entitles them.

[Logistics Loader]

WF,

In my dealings with Commercial Pilots, i have called them Capt or Sir out of courtesy, unless they then tell me to call them Jim /Bob etc...

It was just the way i was brought up.

[Whossat Forrus]

Absolutely right LL, and well done you, Sir, for pointing out the error in my argument. Good manners and the expectation that the 4 gold bar wearing chap in front of you is worthy of, at the very least, polite deference undoubtably shows you are a man brought up 'proper like'. I did, however, say that commercially appointed captains of aircraft do not have the RIGHT to be called "Sir", God forbid I should have inferred that proper conduct should be thought inappropriate. And good morning to you.

[Logistics Loader]

WF,

Manners maketh the man i remember.....

Common courtesy costs nothing, but can cost a lot when things are starting to go wrong...with a bit of good manners thrown into the equation. even a bad scenario can sometimes be turned so as not to look so bad...

The L1011 Captain that invited me onto the flight deck for the approach into Gerona was gracious in his manner, whilst i was there....on leaving the flight deck i expressed my gratitude at being allowed to share the landing with him and his crew..
Cost me nothing...meant a lot......(pre 9/11 of course).

Even the somewhat "old school" term skipper shows a modicum of respect....

Morning to you too....

Happy landings....

[HighlandSniper58]

I also remember, as HS58 does that, HM C & E were commisioned and had equivalency but the brain cells cannot remember what the equivalency was!!


The rank parity of Customs officer is fairly obvious from their uniforms, these showing similar rank braiding to RN Sub-Lieut to Lt. Cdr. and RAF Fg. Off. to Sqn. Ldr.

BTW, as a follow on to the Customs Officer's commissions thingy - Customs rank braids look similar to those of the RN even down to the direction of the curl - in fact ti's the other way around, HM Customs had then first! ;) Sorry to veer off topic...............

[Blacksheep]

Then there's the nagging question of the military rank of a military captain. I've encountered aircraft captains from Flt Lt to Gp Capt in my time, not to mention the four gold rings worn by the captain of a RN wobbly copter that popped ashore over here one day. Once, there were even Sergeants in command of multi crew military aircraft, but that was a little bit before my time.

[Logistics Loader]

IIRC irrespective of rank/status, the person given responsibility for the safe and effective operation of an aircraft is called the Captain...or of late i have heard aircraft commander.

The AAC have Corporal pilots. These guys although still junior in rank to the majority of passengers they carry are still in command of the aircraft...

The Chief of Defence for example may not be a pilot so has no real input into how the Corporal handles the aircraft...

Well thats my understanding of the issue, again i will stand to be corrected...

[SilsoeSid]

The AAC have Corporal pilots. These guys although still junior in rank to the majority of passengers they carry are still in command of the aircraft...

The Chief of Defence for example may not be a pilot so has no real input into how the Corporal handles the aircraft...

1. The Corporal flying may well be lower in rank than his pax, but won't be the commander. However a Sgt may well be.

2. It doesn't matter who/what the passenger is, they should have no input as to the handling of the aircraft.

But, things could possibly have changed since the days of manning levels!

:ok:
SS

[MadsDad]

I was told, a long time ago, that since there can only be one Captain on a ship (the bloke in charge) if a ship happened to have a commanding officer whose rank was below that of Captain and the ship was carrying a passenger with the rank of Captain the passenger would be promoted to Commodore for the duration of the voyage (acting, unpaid).

Assuming this is true (and it sounds feasible, at least) what rank would an army Captain assume? (under the same rules). And does the same apply aboard aircraft (army/navy Captains change rank for the duration of the flight)?

[SilsoeSid]

if a ship happened to have a commanding officer whose rank was below that of Captain and the ship was carrying a passenger with the rank of Captain the passenger would be promoted to Commodore for the duration of the voyage So based on that theory, the passenger would be in charge of the ship? :confused:

Lunatics taking over asylums again.!!


I think I'm correct in saying that a Naval Captain far outranks an Army Captain. (RN Capt = Army Col)table (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/ukds/2005/c2/table227.html)

No passenger will be in charge of a vessel. If they are in a position where they are in charge of the vessel, they are not a passenger but part of the crew.
For example a check ride with the examining officer observing both crew up front. However even then I believe one of those 'up front' would be nominated Captain. (position not rank)


Also, Sids tip # 145, Never get an auth from a pax!!!
Conflict of interest, as someone else found out!

[A and C]

As a civilian captain who flys out of military bases now & then I am told that if I had to night stop then I would be sent to the Officers Mess however I'm told that my cabin crew would be sent to the SNCO's mess.

Informed comment has it that the SNCO's mess is the location of the good food and cheap beer ! This in my opinion is not the way to treat the commander of an aircraft !!.

[Wingswinger]

This civilian captain was a Squadron-Leader and he knows several other civilian captains who were Squadron-Leaders and the odd one or two who were Wing-Commanders. Will that do?

[ShyTorque]

I for one feel a complete imposter / pillock when using an RN station for pax pickup in a civvy rotary wing wearing 4 gold bars on each shoulder, as I know what they are all thinking........what a complete imposter / pillock. (Their own fault tho' as they make us go to Ops to pay the landing fees - I'd be far happier staying by the aircraft!) :rolleyes:

Having said that, I suppose I do still hold the Queen's commission .... and I was once a Chief Inspector in a different service!

Now I am just an airborne taxi driver. It did make me chuckle when a young Bobby recently called me "Sir" in the filling station at the airport, as he obviously thought I was one of his force's police inspectors. :p

[chuks]

In my first and last quasi-airline job in the States I was a First Officer on a Twin Otter for Atlantis Airlines (they later sank without a trace), based at Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. This was a dual-use airport/air base.

The Company had kitted us out in Navy-style uniforms, double-breasted jackets with brass buttons and white caps. No ribbons, unfortunately, but a cheesy set of gold wings to complete the effect.

One day I was walking in the terminal past a young Airman when a flicker of motion caught my eye. My Captain then told me, 'He just saluted you!'

So I turned around and waved. Well, I certainly wasn't going to salute him in return but it would have been rude to ignore him.